≡ Menu

Libertarian Creationism

See: Libertarian and Lockean Creationism: Creation As a Source of Wealth, not Property Right.

***

From Mises blog (archived comments below):

I’ve noted many times that one fallacious line of reasoning in support of intellectual property is the idea that creation is an independent source of rights. I have begun to refer to this as “libertarian creationism.” I critique this notion, inherent in a recent paper by libertarian philosopher Tibor Machan, in the comments of this Objectivist blog.

archived comments:

{ 6 comments }

Michael A. Clem April 6, 2008 at 7:56 pm

An interesting thread to read, actually. The Randroids are easy to identify: they can quote Rand all day long, but never seem to actually try to apply her ideas to the discussion. But even the non-Randroids seem stuck in a certain perspective. I want to know what that “Steve” guy is smoking in those cigarettes of his, because it’s got to be more than just tobacco.
You seem to be arguing against just one particular point in favor of IP, but the idea of copyright kept coming up. So how about it? Would we be better off scrapping patents for a copyright system instead? And could such a system be developed by the market without government monopoly or power?

ktibuk April 7, 2008 at 7:32 am

The problem with Stephans argument is, he presupposes that ownership of every single thing, be it tangible or intangible or intellectual, has to be the subject of a big dispute if it is going to be called property.

This comes from the idea that “property was invented by man to get along with each other”.

This is not true.

Yes, stupid little things like simple patterns can be owned because they were created by whichever individual created them.

But they don’t have to be the center of a dispute, for many reasons.

They can be given away or other people may create them just by themselves without even any contact with each other.

But this doesn’t mean every piece of intellectual property has to be given away for free or anyone can create anything. Every humans is unique and every IP that reflects that uniqueness can be created by only that person.

Robinson Cruesoe owns the fishing pole he creates. He doesn’t need some other person disputing his ownership for him to own what he creates. He de facto owns it. And the fishing pole exists, you cant just wish it away just because there is no dispute over it.

Also he may create a poem. And he owns it. And if there is no contact there is no copying. And if some distant individual creates the same exact poem by himself he may own it too.

Disputes can not be the defining characteristic of property it can only be a sub category of property.

In some instances the creators wouldn’t want their creations to be copied. Since the IP in question is not nature given, and since everyone would know this to be the case, anyone that comes across it doesn’t have a right to freely use it. So just dont do it, just go and make your own.

Stop trying to justify parasitism. Interspecie parasitsm is not sustainable.

More April 10, 2008 at 3:30 pm

@ktibuk:

You make one fallacious assumption which leads to faulty arguments: You think that ideas can be owned, whether or not they are made public and regardless of the non-existence of contracts of the former owner with potential receivers of that idea.

Just think of Robinson Crusoe singing a “self written” song on “his” little island. What if there were others there on the island hearing this song? Do they own their heard version of the song? Yes, they picked it up, because RC gave it away voluntarily.

Just think about the smell of a new dish that gets into the nose of some bystanders. Are they really obliged in your opinion to pay the creator of the dish, if they decide to make a dish inspired by the smell?

Something may only be owned, as long as it is not given away voluntarily. Same goes for money or every other material possession, if it is thrown away.

Tucker told it right away:

“If a man scatters money in the street, he does not thereby formally relinquish title to it…but those who pick it up are thereafter considered the rightful owners… Similarly a man who reproduces his writings by thousands and spreads them everywhere voluntarily abandons his right of privacy and those who read them … no more put themselves by the act under any obligation in regard to the author than those who pick up scattered money put themselves under obligations to the scatterer.”

So no matter if you give away just a simple line of text or a full series of adventure novels, as long as you don’t get an agreement with other people (a contract with them), you have no right to attack potential finders and force them to pay you.

You may be the owner of the “original” idea (better said: of the one instance of the idea, that came to your mind), but you are by no way owner of all instances of the idea, that are represented in the minds of other people… that would be an aggression against the principle of self-ownership and further down the road an attack on the principle of ownership.

More April 10, 2008 at 3:30 pm

@ktibuk:

You make one fallacious assumption which leads to faulty arguments: You think that ideas can be owned, whether or not they are made public and regardless of the non-existence of contracts of the former owner with potential receivers of that idea.

Just think of Robinson Crusoe singing a “self written” song on “his” little island. What if there were others there on the island hearing this song? Do they own their heard version of the song? Yes, they picked it up, because RC gave it away voluntarily.

Just think about the smell of a new dish that gets into the nose of some bystanders. Are they really obliged in your opinion to pay the creator of the dish, if they decide to make a dish inspired by the smell?

Something may only be owned, as long as it is not given away voluntarily. Same goes for money or every other material possession, if it is thrown away.

Tucker told it right away:

“If a man scatters money in the street, he does not thereby formally relinquish title to it…but those who pick it up are thereafter considered the rightful owners… Similarly a man who reproduces his writings by thousands and spreads them everywhere voluntarily abandons his right of privacy and those who read them … no more put themselves by the act under any obligation in regard to the author than those who pick up scattered money put themselves under obligations to the scatterer.”

So no matter if you give away just a simple line of text or a full series of adventure novels, as long as you don’t get an agreement with other people (a contract with them), you have no right to attack potential finders and force them to pay you.

You may be the owner of the “original” idea (better said: of the one instance of the idea, that came to your mind), but you are by no way owner of all instances of the idea, that are represented in the minds of other people… that would be an aggression against the principle of self-ownership and further down the road an attack on the principle of ownership.

Reuven August 12, 2010 at 2:00 pm

It seems to me that you are all ignoring one simple fact. Authorship. If you combine or rearange aspects of reality in a unique way then you therefore “own” your work. If you observe someone else doing this but then claim the product as your own it is called stealing. In the IP realm the proper concpet is called plaigarism.

This whole discussion simply boiles downto an attempt to justify theft and plaigarism by blanking out cause and effect. simple as that. end of discussion.

Dean West September 11, 2010 at 2:05 am

More silly arguments against IP. It points out a third way that someone can own something (Creation), but says it’s not valid, as it’s not “necessary” or “sufficient”. Forgetting that the two other ways that the article writer accepts aren’t either.

Homesteading is not “necessary” if you have a contractual arrangement. And a contractual arrangement is not “necessary” if you homesteaded. So that creation is not “necessary”, does not invalidate it as a means to property ownership.

Homesteading is not “sufficient” to own property, not when one thinks about it. An overarching societal “contractual arrangement” that has the unspoken but assumed belief that homesteading is valid is needful. A settler can stake out and homestead a farm, but if the society surrounding him is that of 15th century Native America, it is doubtful that he will remain secure in title.

Contractual arrangements are also not “sufficient” to own property. I can contract with my brother to own your property, what of it? Was it either of our’s to contract? And do we live in a statist society with courts or a free market society with arbitration agencies? Or a tribalistic society of illiterate hunter/gatherers who don’t know or care about contractual arrangements?

From this we see that while there are three different means of owning property, none of them are – of themselves – sufficient or necessary for property as such to exist as a concept.

“Creation” as a third means of owning property is as valid as the first two kinds. And relies on the same things. Who had it first? If one does not own the body that he had first, who could? If one does not own the land one made use of first, who could? And if one does not own the idea of your mind, who could?

Of course the creation of a book using another pen and paper of another may give them some claim. Surely no more than the cost of the pen and paper and profit, but so be it. And if you are commissioned to write a book or invent something, then that is between you and your patron. It changes not this, though: That if one creates a new entity, using one’s own property, and are contractually beholden to none, then that creation belongs to them.

If they’ve not a right to it, they having created it and observed this new entity first, who could? Nor in their insistence on being paid for a copy of their literary achievement are they laying claim to your property by forbidding you to use your own pen and paper to copy them.

Consider the obvious – before the bestselling author wrote his latest blockbuster novel, you had absolutely no means of using your own pen and paper to copy that non-existent book. Now an author has wrote such a book. How has your right to use your property changed? You couldn’t use your pen and paper for a bestseller before, and since the author who could wants a fee, you still can’t do it now. There’s been no change in your “right” to use your pen and paper. You may use it just as much as you always could, but you still can’t use it in ways that others can.

Except in one small way – if you like, you can offer the author a payment, and he can show you a brand new way to use your pen and paper, to make a book, a song or an invention. If one is so concerned about not being limited in how they can use their pen and paper, then one would think they would encourage authors to feel safe that they will not be robbed for creating new ways to do so.

One does not encourage food production by waiting until a farmer comes up with a new hybrid of corn, and then cry, “Give me some seeds of that, else you are depriving me of my freedom to use my soil to grow as I please!” Spare me. You have the right to offer payment for the new seed, you’ve no right to whine, “I want to do as you do, but without the work, and without offering payment!”

Likewise, if you want a new way to use your pen and paper, offer money to those who know how to come up with new ways. But don’t tell them that they are infringing on your freedom to use your pen and paper – they aren’t. No matter how many novels the author writes, no matter how many descriptions the inventor comes up with, your ability to use your pen and paper will not change. You may use it as much as you ever could – and not one bit more.

If you want that one bit more, then break out your wallet. You don’t give your labor away, don’t expect the author to, no matter how many thieves/copiers claim that he should.

And as for that old, “Well, he printed up 500,000 copies and sent them all over the world, so if I see it, it’s mine! It’s just like he through money in the street!”, spare me. Neverminding how tawdry that is, equating ones “right” to copy another’s work with scrabbling in the street for change, it fails logically.

Under that argument of “You didn’t keep track of it and get a contract from everyone on Earth, so it’s mine!”, I could just as easily lay claim to your house the next time you leave for work. After all, do you have a fence all around your house (most don’t), or a sign clearly stating your intention to return? Or do you just – as an author does – assume the obvious, that no one would be silly enough to think that because you didn’t get a contract from six billion people does not mean you were intending to give away your property the first time it was out of your sight?

And by the way, if you disagree with me, contact me with your credit card information. Don’t deny me this, I have the right (according to the anti-IPers) to use my pen and paper as I please, and if you withhold your credit card number, you are unjustly laying claim to my pen and paper, and preventing me from using it as I will. And, you’ve given that number out to a lot of vendors, so clearly you’ve renounced title to it, unless you can show me contracts signed by all those vendors saying they won’t distribute it.

Share
{ 3 comments }

In 2008 I delivered the Rothbard Memorial Lecture, “The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism,” Austrian Scholars Conference 2008, Ludwig von Mises Institute, Auburn AL, March 13, 2008.

Update: see KOL012 | “The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism,” Austrian Scholars Conference 2008 (Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 012) for slides and video.

Update: Carla Hesse, “The Rise of Intellectual Property, 700 B.C.-A.D. 2000: An Idea in the Balance,” Daedalus 131, no. 2 (Spring, 2002): 26–45, 26: “The concept of intellectual property—the idea that an idea can be owned—is a child of the European Enlightenment. It was only when people began to believe that knowledge came from the human mind working upon the senses—rather than through divine revelation, assisted by the study of ancient texts—that it became possible to imagine humans as creators, and hence owners, of new ideas rather than as mere transmitters of eternal verities.” (emphasis added)

Share
{ 7 comments }

From Mises Blog and Against Monopoly, Jan. 23 2008. Comments from both posts repixeled below. See also Libertarian Favors $80 Billion Annual Tax-Funded “Medical Innovation Prize Fund” .

$30 Billion Taxfunded Innovation Contracts: The “Progressive-Libertarian” Solution

Corporation
01/23/2008

I’ve noted before the disturbing trend of intellectuals–some even libertarian or free marketeers—advocating taxpayer-funded “medical innovation prizes” to supplement or replace the current patent system—e.g., Alex Tabarrok’s support of an $80 billion/year “medical innovation prize fund”, and similar proposals by others, including Joseph Stiglitz and Forbes.com.

Now, on Cato Unbound, one “Dean Baker” has his own proposal:

I do not support a prize system …. A prize system would preserve what I see as some of the worst problems of the patent system, most importantly encouraging secrecy in research. … My ideal system would be a system in which the government allocates a pot of money (@$30 billion a year–approximately equal to private R&D in the pharmaceutical sector) that would be awarded in long-term contracts to a relatively small number of master contractors. For example, there can be 10 master contractors getting grants of roughly $30 billion each spread over 10 years.

Of course this is not a perfect system and there may well be better alternatives, but the point is to get the discussion started. … Perhaps a progressive-libertarian alliance can force economists/policy makers to take this issue seriously.

I think you’ve got the conversation started, buddy. Congratulations! Now, can you leave us the hell alone?

Update: Will Wilkinson, in Dean Baker on Libertarians and the Fight Against Corporatism, discussing the interchange between Dean Baker and Tim Lee, gushes, “the extent of overall agreement really is pretty impressive, and promising.” Dissent!

Update 2: Cato’s Tim Lee writes: “I can’t agree with Baker that all copyright and patent monopolies are illegitimate. Copyright and patent protections have existed since the beginning of the republic, and if properly calibrated they can (as the founders put it) promote the progress of science and the useful arts. Like any government intervention in the economy, they need to be carefully constrained. But if they are so limited, they can be a positive force in the American economy.”

Ah, yes, that’s our job as market liberals–to help the state “properly calibrate” its grants of pattern privilege!

Update 3: On HuffPo, Baker ridicules DC intellectuals who favor the bailout, in How Do You Make a DC Intellectual Look Less Articulate Than Sarah Palin Being Interviewed by Katie Couric? Not a bad piece, but his anti-bailout credibility is undermined a bit by advocating $30B of state funding to promote innovation!

Update 4: As noted in Fritz Machlup, U.S. Senate Subcommittee On Patents, Trademarks & Copyrights, An Economic Review of the Patent System, 85th Cong., 2nd Session, 1958, Study No. 15, , proposals for systems of prizes to innovators and inventors have been around a long time. For example, such systems have been proposed or put into place by James Madison in 1787, Russia in 1834, the Soviet Union in 1931, and by Michael Polanyi, whose views on tacit knowledge and spontaneous order influenced Hayek, in 1944.

❧

From AIM:

Stephan:Though we may disagree for different reasons, I absolutely agree with you that paying for pharmaceutical research with government money is a giant step in the wrong dimension…into an alternative dimension even.

Stephan, if you oppose research prizes, public research funding, and patents, how do you suppose pharmaceutical research will get done? Or are you indifferent to the possibility that it might not?

If prizes are as good an idea as some people think they are, and if the general populace will be as happy to fund them as those same people think they should be, then a free market (without monopoly) will provide a means for people to fund prizes.Funnily enough, such a mechanism is precisely what I’m working on. 😉

See The Contingency Market.

From Mises Blog (archived):

{ 10 comments… read them below or add one }

Erick Vasconcelos November 23, 2008 at 1:46 pm

I don’t understand the scare quotes around Dean Baker’s name. It’s the guy’s name, for Christ’s sake.

REPLY

newson November 23, 2008 at 5:17 pm

“progressive-libertarian alliance”…oxymoron?

REPLY

J Cortez November 24, 2008 at 8:56 am

“progressive-libertarian alliance”…oxymoron?

“Progressive-libertarian alliance” ??? I don’t even know what that means. I can’t see how there can be any alliance on something like this. I can’t call anyone that supports stuff like this a libertarian.

It is a mild joke to me how these people just throw out gigantic numbers and then don’t understand how out of control spending has gotten. $30 billion? That is 600,000 times the median household income in the United State.

REPLY

A.E. Siman November 24, 2008 at 10:43 am

We Libertarians are the first to point out how Socialists formulate governmental policy on pie-in-the-sky ideals that are unrealistic and detached from the realities of human behavior. There is a reason for patent and copyright protection, namely the “protection” it gives an individual/company while their idea has a chance to get to market. Taking away this protection under the assumption that all is fair and no one will take advantage of others is a similar miscalculation of the human condition.

The free market ideal is not a proposal for a “free-for-all law of the jungle” scenario. It is a disciplined ideology that recognizes that your rights begin and end where they criss-cross the rights of others. Without intellectual property rights, then there is no way of making illegal for another individual or company from literally stealing your intangible property. While the current patent and copyright system doesn’t prevent theft, it does build the legal basis for those property rights. They are the “deed” to your intangible property.

Since when do Libertarians believe that there should be no property rights? Intellectual or otherwise? A “self-government” ideology is nothing without property rights, even if that property isn’t tangible. Wasn’t the lack of property rights the ideology of the Socialists?

REPLY

Caveman November 24, 2008 at 2:41 pm

A.E., IP is an issue on which libertarians are divided. The Cato and Ayn Rand institutes are generally pro-IP; Mises Institute seems to oppose IP. Opponents of IP tend to reject the idea of intangible property.

REPLY

A.E. Siman November 24, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Caveman, we are an “idea economy”. Take away the property rights to those ideas, and you not only destroy the incentive for small and independent inventors to venture out with their ideas, but you make it more likely that larger companies will be secretive about their work.

Why should a person working out of their garage trust anyone with their ideas if there is no protection for intangible property? How can they feel comfortable going to engineers, designers, marketers, or anyone else that could help them develop their dreams, but is a likely candidate for theft.

If the law doesnt consider it property, then there can be no theft, and you have set up a free-for-all where anything goes. You have also destroyed the possibility for unconventional and out-of-the-box thinking by those inventors outside of the mainstream. In other words, you have destroyed the idea economy.

REPLY

wuzacon November 24, 2008 at 6:02 pm

A.E.

“Why should a person working out of their garage trust anyone with their ideas if there is no protection for intangible property? How can they feel comfortable going to engineers, designers, marketers, or anyone else that could help them develop their dreams, but is a likely candidate for theft.”

The transaction you just identified is almost never protected by intellectual property. Intellectual property does not kick in until after the idea has been developed. There is no reasonable reason to suspect that your lawyer, engineer, marketer or other contractual partner will run off with the innovators innovation because they should be contractually bound not to compete with the innovation prior to disclosing the innovation to these third-parties. Contract law, then, is the basis for ensuring that ideas are not stolen in this context.

Whether intellectual property in-fact provides a real benefit to the economy is a question open for debate. China appears to be doing just fine without it. Without intellectual property, companies identify ways to market their products so that they cannot be easily copied.

The casualty of a system without intellectual property would be the lack of transparency in communicating new ideas for others to use and build off of in the future. On the flip side, innovators would be free to come up with the idea regardless of who figured it out first.

Unfortunately, IP discussions seems to suffer from a overemphasis and over-reliance on the Lockean Proviso, which states that property is legitimate so long as there is as much and as good available. As I believe the Austrians have shown, this principle makes no sense. Property is required when there is scarcity. When the object is freely available to all (air) property serves no purpose. So what should we make of IP if the Lockean Proviso is abolished.

REPLY

Josh November 25, 2008 at 2:05 am

What is up with all the anti-Cato articles that have been circulating recently? This is like the fourth one I’ve seen. Is it really worth it to try to discredit an otherwise libertarian mouthpiece just because one or two rogue authors gets something wrong?

For whatever reason, I think someone’s got something against Cato, but why?

REPLY

Chu-hua Zhu December 19, 2010 at 6:13 pm

Josh, this is two years late, but the Anti-Cato stuff is because Cato falsely presents itself as libertarian. It is, in fact, efficiency expertise for the State and a subversion of real libertarianism.

REPLY

Larry N. Martin November 25, 2008 at 8:44 am

It’s the libertarians who are the progressives, nowadays. The “progressives” stopped being progressive a long time ago.

REPLY

Share
{ 8 comments }

From the Mises blog. Archived comments below. See also On the Danger of Metaphors in Scientific Discourse; “Hume on Intellectual Property and the Problematic “Labor” Metaphor”; “Thoughts on Intellectual Property, Scarcity, Labor-ownership, Metaphors, and Lockean Homesteading“.

 

Objectivist Law Prof Mossoff on Copyright; or, the Misuse of Labor, Value, and Creation Metaphors

Mises blog
01/03/2008

 

In my posts Owning Thoughts and Labor and Thoughts on Intellectual Property, Scarcity, Labor-ownership, Metaphors, and Lockean Homesteading, I discuss several problems with over- or mis-use of various metaphors in political theorizing, especially the idea that we “own” our labor and “therefore” come to own things we “mix our labor with”; the idea that we own things we “create,” and that this is one of the main ways (or the only way) to acquire ownership in things; and related notions such as the idea that we have property rights in the “value” of things we own.

[Update: see Oliva on Objectivists and “Second-hand Property Rights”]

As I argue in the posts above and elsewhere (e.g., How We Come to Own Ourselves; Defending Argumentation Ethics; Owning Thoughts and Labor), homesteading does not need to rely on the strange, non-rigorous, overly-metaphorical idea that we “own” our “labor.” One owns has a better claim to unowned things one first uses, than do latecomers. Period. It has nothing to do with “owning” “labor.” We own scarce resources, not our labor.

As for the idea that we own things we “create,” this idea is often used to justify IP–after all, who can deny that an author “creates” his novel? So if you own normal (tangible) property because you create it, why don’t you own other “ontological” types of things you create, like poems or inventions or recipes? (See, e.g, the argument for IP by Tibor Machan.) The problem with this idea (see pp. 26 et pass. of Against Intellectual Property; Owning Thoughts and Labor; and the discussions in the comments section of Trademark and Fraud) is that creation is neither necessary nor sufficient for ownership. If you already own the underlying material that you re-shape into a different, more useful configuration, you own the resulting thing because you already owned the material that it is made of (imagine carving a statue out of your hunk of granite). And if you carve a statue in someone else’s granite, you don’t own the statue. In fact, the only way to come to own something is to either find it unowned and appropriate it; or to obtain it contractually from someone who did (or his transferee).

Finally, all this is intermixed with the idea of value. A common mistaken belief is that one has a property right in the value, as opposed to the physical integrity of, one’s property. For elaboration, see pp. 139-141 of Hoppe’s A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism; also see my comments re same to Patents and Utilitarian Thinking. This assumption sneaks into or lies at the basis of many fallacious notions of property rights, such as the idea that there is a right to a reputation because it can have value. It ties in with the (especially Randian) notion of “creation” as the source of rights, and the confusing admixture of the “labor” idea, when we talk about using our labor to “create” things of “value” (like reputations, inventions, works of art). Actually, if you labor transform a homesteaded thing into something more valuable, you own the resulting valuable thing not because you created it; not because you own your labor–but because you were the first user of the underlying property that was transformed. Yes, your creative labor made the object that you owned more valuable to you (presumably, ex ante, as this was your goal), but it is not a source of ownership. Therefore, it’s a non-sequitur to leap from these observations and say that you own anything you create that has value.

As Hoppe notes in his classic article Banking, Nation States and International Politics: A Sociological Reconstruction of the Present Economic Order,

“One can acquire and increase wealth either through homesteading, production and contractual exchange, or by expropriating and exploiting homesteaders, producers, or contractual exchangers. There are no other ways.”

Note that Hoppe here acknowledges that “production” is a means of gaining “wealth”. But this does not mean that creation is an independent source of ownership or rights–production is not really the creation of new matter; it is the transformation of things from one form to another; things one necessarily already owns. Therefore, the resulting more valuable finished products–the results of one’s labor applied to one’s property–give the owner greater wealth, but not additional property rights. If I carve a statue out of my stone, I already owned the stone, so I naturally own the resulting statue; what has changed is that I have transformed my property into a new configuration that is worth more to me, and possibly to others. (This is discussed further in Owning Thoughts and Labor.)

***

I mention all this because these issues came to mind when I read the recent comments of an Objectivist law professor, Adam Mossoff, on copyright and related matters. See, e.g., his “Locke’s Labor Lost,” 9 University of Chicago Law School Roundtable 155 (2002); “Is Copyright Property?” 42 San Diego Law Review 29 (2005); both available on SSRN.

In the copyright piece, in the short span of two paragraphs, Mossoff nicely illustrates the kind of reasoning I’m talking about–the misuse of the concepts of creation, labor, and value in an attempt to justify copyright as a natural right. Writes Mossoff:

Property is the right to acquire, use, and dispose of the things that one has created through one’s labor. It is this concept of property that precipitated the virtual truism in American society that every person has a right to enjoy the fruits of one’s labors.

It is also this concept of property–which focuses on the substantive relationship between a person and the thing that he has labored upon or created–that explains and justifies the protection of intellectual property rights, regardless whether these rights exist in tangible books or computer code. A person’s right to control the disposition of his creation, and thereby enjoy the fruits–the profit–of his labors, is central to the legal definition and protection of property entitlements.57 As the New York Court of Appeals stated in 1856: “Property is the right of any person to possess, use, enjoy and dispose of a thing. . . . A man may be deprived of his property in a chattel, therefore, without its being seized or physically destroyed, or taken from his possession.”58 In the context of tangible property rights, the courts have never demanded that a person be deprived physically of his property as a necessary prerequisite for finding a violation of property rights. Stealing the fruits of one’s labors or indirectly interfering with the use of the property is sufficient; in other words, it is sufficient that one lose the ability to use, control or dispose of the values that one has created.59 It is this concept of property that explains why copyright is in fact property, rather than monopoly privileges meted out to authors at the leisure of the state’s utility calculation.”

So let’s take a look at this. First, Mossoff says property is that which you “create” through your “labor”. The concepts of labor and “creationism” permeate his analysis.

It would be harmless to merely recognize, to observe, that in homesteading a scarce (rivalrous) resource, one of course employs “labor”. One homesteads an unowned resource by being the first to possess, use, emborder it, because these give the appropriator an objective link to the property, a better connection to it than any latecomer. It is not because one “owns” one’s labor. This is a misleading metaphor. But it’s okay to observe this, if one is clear in one’s terms. Of course, “using” something or “acting” or “appropriating” an object is a type of “labor,” so sure, labor is involved. Fine. But it does not imply that one has a right to anything one labors on. This would be taking the significance of labor out of context.

And as noted above, one does not really create new things–one only homesteads them (if unowned); or transforms them (if already owned) into more useful configurations. Productive effort can create wealth, that is, transform owned things into more-valuable things. But creation is not a source of rights or ownership; rather, creative production is what makes already-owned things more valuable. The uncareful over-reliance on the role of creation sloppily equates wealth (which is the result of human labor, creativity, productivity) with property.

To re-state: one has property rights in scarce resources that he homesteads. Nobody “creates” these things; someone appropriates them from their unowned state. It is commonly argued that you can acquire ownership of things by either finding, buying, or creating them. But in reality, creation is a false third category. And here, the IP proponent is elevating it as the main (or sole) way of acquiring ownership in things. As of course he has to, since, as Tibor Machan notes, ideal objects like poems are purely human-created things:

“the status of something as private property appears to hinge on its being in significant measure an intentional object–its status as a private owned entity has to do with in what mental relation is stands with an agent. But then it would seem that so called intellectual stuff is an even better candidate for qualifying as private property than is, say, a tree or mountain. Both of the latter only come to be related to human intentions, whereas a poem or novel cannot have their essential identity without having been intended (mentally created) by human beings.”

But not only is creation the only, or main, source of ownership; it is not a source at all.

Back to Mossoff: note that in the second paragraph quoted, he subtly relies on the idea that labor is a source of rights, and that there are property rights not only in tangible objects, but in “value” one has “created” with one’s labor. First, he writes that: “It is this concept of property [that it’s the right to acquire, use, and dispose of the things that one has created through one’s labort] that precipitated the virtual truism in American society that every person has a right to enjoy the fruits of one’s labors”. Well, what are the “fruits” of one’s labors? There are literal fruits, like a tree producing fruits. Of course, if you own a tree and the land it’s on, the fruit that falls from the tree is yours too; before it drops from the tree it’s part of the tree that you own; you own the fruit after it falls off, just as you own both parts of your staff after you break it in two. There are also “civil fruits”–the profits or interest that you gain from investing capital you own. Or other “fruit” like milk of the cow you sell. But owning a resource (say, a cow) is sufficient to give you the right to benefit from its “fruits,” since you own these too. You don’t need to find a separate “right to own fruits”; it’s implied in what it means to own something.

And say you want to make money by being paid to labor for someone. You could call the payment for doing the job “receiving the fruits of one’s labor”–the fruit is the money you receive, in exchange for labor you perform. Now you certainly own your body, which is a scarce resource. But this is enough to allow you to make money by laboring: you control your body, so you withhold services until someone agrees to pay you for performing a given action.

So: recognizing the role of “labor” as part of acting to appropriate property in no way implies one is “entitled” to “whatever results” from that labor. Likewise, the fact that human creativity can create wealth–make owned things more valuable–in no way implies that “creation” is some kind of independent source of ownership of things. And the fact that we value the things we own, and that we enhance this value by improving or transforming our property, in no way implies that we have property rights in value as such.

So why, then, does Mossoff emphasize that we have the right to enjoy the fruits of our labors? Why does he imply that there is a separate, independent property right in “fruits” of “labor”–? After all, labor is not the source of rights; nor is there some separate homesteading of unowned fruits out there–the fruits are either yours already (because they were part of and came from a thing you owned), or they are given to you contractually (in exchange for you performing services with things you own). In neither case is there any reliance on some underlying labor-creationist-theory that you have a right to “own” any “thing” that you “create” with your “labor,” much less any thing — even intangible things–that “have” value (of course, things don’t “have” a value; they are valued by certain people as demonstrated by their actions).

Well, he emphasizes labor and value and creation because that is what you have to do to claim rights in copyrights and patents. These things are not scarce resources that are homesteaded. No; they are simply mercantilist, state-granted monopoly privileges that give the holders claims on other people’s already-owned property. And on what grounds? On the grounds that the holder thought of a way to use his own property–so he ought to be able to control everyone else’s property in the same way. Clearly this is in stark opposition to the notion of homesteading, which is the true basis for property rights. But if you ignore the true nature of homesteading–that it is the assignment of property rights to those with an objective link to the scarce object in question so as to permit conflict-free interaction and use of scarce means–and emphasize “aspects” of homesteading–that it “involves” labor; that the results of productive effort “have value”; then you can just “by analogy” try to invent a new form of property right in “things that have value”, that are naturally owned by–who else–the person who created them. After all, you have a right to things that “result from” your labor, right?

Note that Mossoff says,

“In the context of tangible property rights, the courts have never demanded that a person be deprived physically of his property as a necessary prerequisite for finding a violation of property rights. Stealing the fruits of one’s labors or indirectly interfering with the use of the property is sufficient; in other words, it is sufficient that one lose the ability to use, control or dispose of the values that one has created.”

Note the word values tossed in there, to allow him to find a way to say that failing to respect copyright is a type of “stealing” since it diminishes the “value” of the copyright to the user.

Mossoff also writes:

It is also this concept of property–which focuses on the substantive relationship between a person and the thing that he has labored upon or created–that explains and justifies the protection of intellectual property rights, regardless whether these rights exist in tangible books or computer code. A person’s right to control the disposition of his creation, and thereby enjoy the fruits–the profit–of his labors, is central to the legal definition and protection of property entitlements.

Here he says that property has to do with a relationship between a person, and “the thing that he has labored upon or created”. As if this is what homesteading is. And of course, you have to have the right to control the disposition of your property to enjoy its fruits. Well, let’s think about this. In the case of tangible property, it is not because you “labored upon” it that you own it. In fact, if you labor upon someone else’s property you do not own it. No: it is because (in the case of homesteaded property) you were its first user, giving you an objective link to it and a better claim than anyone else, who with respect to you is a late-comer (making their own claim, which also would have to be based on the idea of their link to it, which is their possession of it, inferior, since it came after yours, and contrary to their own presupposed prior-later distinction since of course they maintain a third-comer has no rights to it because they come later!). It is not because you “labored upon” it; it’s because you did something to emborder it, to appropriate it. And it’s not because you “created” it: you never create property: you just transform it. To transform something, you have to own it already, or at least, you transform unowned property thereby appropriating it. But you are not creating it. If you “create” wealth, you do not own the wealth; it’s just an aspect of property you do own. If you create products using your own raw materials, you creation of products is not a separate source of ownership; you own the products not because you created them, but because they are just transformed property that you already owned. If your cow gives milk you own the milk because you already owned the cow, and the stuff that was inside her.

So Mossoff is wrong to imply that homesteading of normal (scarce, rivalrous) property rests on the notion that, or implies that, creation is a source of property rights, or even “laboring upon”. Labor only serves to generate property rights if it’s labor that amounts to a type of first use or possession of an unowned scarce resource. This in no way implies that if you think of a pattern or a way to use your property, that you now gain property rights in other people’s already-homesteaded property. The analogy totally breaks down.

As to the comment, “A person’s right to control the disposition of his creation, and thereby enjoy the fruits–the profit–of his labors, is central to the legal definition and protection of property entitlements.” Well–for tangible property, the exclusive right to control the scarce resource homesteaded is in itself fully sufficient to “enjoy the fruits of” it–just as ownership of a home is sufficient to have “free speech” on it. Just as there is no separate right to free speech (if there were, you could speak on others’ property without their consent); not, it’s just a consequence of, or derivative of, or an aspect of, the fundamental right to control your property (including your body). Likewise, there need be no separate “right to enjoy the fruits of” your “things” that “result from your labor.” This is a stilted way of putting it to reverse engineer the result that the IP advocates want. Giving the first user of a scarce resource the right to control it is all the property rights do, and need do. Given this right to control, you can “enjoy its fruits”. There is no separate right to enjoy fruits–certainly not as open-ended as “enjoy the fruits of” any thing (whether scarce or not) that you “labored upon to give value to” or “created”. None of this follows at all.

The entire case for copyright and patent based on “creationism” is nothing but a house of cards, constructed on confused understanding about the true nature of individual property rights. The labor-value-creationism myth has wormed its way through libertarian property rights theory and tainted it. It needs to be ripped out.

One final comment. The conclusion to Mossoff’s paper states:

The past evolution of copyright law is notable because we are in the midst of another revolution today–the digital revolution. The impact of the digital revolution is as far reaching as was the industrial revolution of the nineteenth century, but it is important to realize that we are still in the midst of this revolution. It is not yet clear how and in what ways intellectual property rights should be best protected in the new digital domain, but the evolution of intellectual property rights is as necessary today as it was during the industrial revolution. It would be wrong to condemn outright our early attempts to define copyright entitlements for digital content, just as it would have been wrong to condemn the early attempts at defining trademarks or the evolving rules of copyright at the end of the nineteenth century. A legal doctrine in transition may be criticized for its various fits and starts, but the difficulties inherent in the transition are not sufficient grounds for junking the doctrine itself.

Fits and starts!? Some growing pains we are going through. It’s bizarre any advocate of liberty could ever advocate the nightmare that is copyright.

***

Appendix: On the dangers of metaphors in scientific discourse

The following observations and quotes assembled from previous email and other conversations re same:

See the following, from Mark Thornton’s The “Market” for Academic Research: this is a great quote; I think it would be a useful project to collect various comments on dangers of the use of metaphors into one place:

“For it would be an absurd undertaking to banish from the language of economic theory every manner of speaking that is not literally correct; it would be sheer pedantry to proscribe every figure of speech, particularly since we could not say the hundredth part of what we have to say, if we refused ever to take recourse to a metaphor. One requirement is essential, that economic theory avoid the error of confusing a practical habit, indulged in for the sake of expediency, with scientific truth.“

–Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, (1881), “Whether legal rights and relationships are economic goods.” In H. Sennholz (Ed.), Shorter classics of Böhm-Bawerk, Volume I. Spring Mills, PA: Libertarian Press, 1962, p. 135. As Mark noted on a list: “Bohm Bawerk took up this issue [of misuse of metahpors] in Shorter Classics. I quote him at the opening of this paper (attached). The whole public choice agenda is based on the use of market methaphors for government institutions.”

NSK:

I’ve long noticed the over- and mis-use of metaphors. For example Paterson or Lane’s use of “energy circuits” …. very scientistic. Similar to the way people talk about the “momentum” of a football game or the “energy” of a crowd or a crystal.

Or in the idea of mixing or owning labor, or owning ideas, or in the idea that prices “convey knowledge”.

Also, as I noted elsewhere: “Mixing labor” is horribly misleading and a sloppy metaphor: if I turn a piece of land into a farm, did I *actually* mix my labor? I mean, is there like an amount of labor “in” the soil? It’s really sloppy and imprecise.

I’ve always liked this observation of Huelsmann’s:

Only in a metaphorical sense could one say that prices reflect or contain information on present conditions. …

… It is asserted that prices communicate abridged relevant information. This, however, is only a metaphorical expression.

It is not prices that coordinate the actions of sellers and buyers of tin; prices are the outcome of (coordinated) action, not its coordinators. It is property, rather than knowledge, that coordinates the separate actions of different people. The terms coordination and communication rather obfuscate than adequately express this fact. This is another example of the dangers linked to the use of metaphors in scientific discourse.

From p. 29 of this article

And Rothbard:

“The term “consumers’ sovereignty” is a typical example of the abuse, in economics, of a term . . . appropriate only to the political realm and is thus an illustration of the dangers of the application of metaphors taken from other disciplines. “Sovereignty” is the quality of ultimate political power; it is the power resting on the use of violence. In a purely free society, each individual is sovereign over his own person and property, and it is therefore this self-sovereignty which obtains on the free market. No one is “sovereign” over anyone else’s actions or exchanges. Since the consumers do not have the power to coerce producers into various occupations and work, the former are not “sovereign” over the latter.”

Mises:

“Mises rightly criticised treating imaginary things (collectives, analogies, metaphors, etc.) as real and warns us to be very cautious when using fictitious auxiliary constructs to explain things”

Also, from others’ comments about this on an email discussion list:

Roderick Long:

“Ironically, in his memoirs Mises accuses Bohm-Bawerk (in their dispute over Cantillon effects) of being led astray by the idea of “friction” and other metaphors from the physical sciences.”

On a thread, I had written: “Right, and this is the danger of metaphors (BTW I wonder if anyone has examined this issue in any detail–? The dangers overuse of metaphors in scientific discourse?).” Roderick Long replied: “Right, such a study might be called “How Scientific Discourse is Being Savagely Bitten to Death by Rabid Metaphors.” Tom DiLorenzo’s reply:

“A fun paper (Vedran, are you listening?) would be to ridicule the metaphors in macroeconomics with all the talk of “injections,” “Leakages,” shocks,” etc. I would start by comparing it all to the movie Young Frankenstein, where they tried to “shock” the monster to life, just as “infusions” of money or tax dollars supposedly shock the economy out of a recession. Then when shock therapy didn’t work, Gene Wilder pulled out a giant needle and “injected” the monster, just as money is supposedly injected into the economy by the Fed. The possibilities are endless.”

John Brätland:

In this connection, I would put in a strong plug for Peter Lewin’s paper: “Methods and Metaphors in Capital Theory.” (Advances in Austrian Economics, vol. 2B).

I might add that important parts of Mises’ “Ultimate Foundations… ” and “Theory and History” deal with the issue of inapt and misleading metaphors in economic science.

See also The Problem with “Fraud”: Fraud, Threat, and Contract Breach as Types of Aggression, discussing problems resulting from uncareful use of concepts like “fraud” in libertarian reasoning.

Archived comments:

[archived comments]

Tony Fernandez April 19, 2011 at 7:39 pm

Most arguments against liberty are confused and incoherent. Arguments for IP are no exception.

Edgaras April 20, 2011 at 8:54 am

Testing comments

El Tonno April 20, 2011 at 2:50 pm

That was pretty short and to the point.

One should ask IP proponents why the duration of a state-granted monopoly should not be set arbitrarily to let’s say 2 years non-renewable [copyright and patents]. That would “incentivize” IP holders to work on their time-to-market something fierce and flush out patent trolls.

Wildberry April 20, 2011 at 3:08 pm

Stephan Kinsella,
I’m glad you pointed us all to this speech, although I am grateful I don’t have to depend upon you for my understanding of it.
In your very first objection, you misstate his reference to Locke. What he said is that Locke was wrong to conclude that rights to IP were justified by a labor theory. Instead he refers to AR’s principle that it is the intellect that is the origin of all values.

I believe the quote was as follows:

“It is the conceptual identification and resulting cold, directed action that creates value”,

leading to the famous Rand premise that “All property is fundamentally intellectual property.”

If you missed the first issue, I can’t have much confidence that you’ve translated the remainder any more accurately.

But what I found especially interesting is his knowledge of your arguments, and that the scarcity argument for property rights originated with Jeremy Benthem’s arguments for utilitarianism.

And to think that your scarcity argument is found at the root of both Bentham and Marx.

Enlightening!

Stephan Kinsella April 20, 2011 at 3:52 pm

Wildberry:

In your very first objection, you misstate his reference to Locke. What he said is that Locke was wrong to conclude that rights to IP were justified by a labor theory. Instead he refers to AR’s principle that it is the intellect that is the origin of all values.

I misstated nothing. I said “Mossoff says (or implies; I can’t recall) that Locke believed IP was a natural right.”

In the Youtube version, Part 3 of 8, at about 3:20-3:44, Mossoff says Locke recognized IP as property, and strongly implies that Locke viewed this as a natural right (the preceding few seconds is about Locke’s view of the natural right to property)–this is exactly what I said in my main post. And, as I said in the main post, this contention is false, as shown by Ronan Deazley and Tom Bell.

As for your comment, ” What he said is that Locke was wrong to conclude that rights to IP were justified by a labor theory. Instead he refers to AR’s principle that it is the intellect that is the origin of all values.”

Yes, in my main post above, I explicitly said:

At one point Mossoff says that leftist opponents of IP are labor theory of value types; and that the problem with this view is that it’s not physical labor but intellectual effort or labor that is the source of property.

Apparently you did not even read my post or listen to Mossoff’s lecture.

But what I found especially interesting is his knowledge of your arguments, and that the scarcity argument for property rights originated with Jeremy Benthem’s arguments for utilitarianism. … And to think that your scarcity argument is found at the root of both Bentham and Marx.

The recognition that property arises because of scarcity is not utilitarian or Benthamite–or Marxian. Rather, the Randian argument itself is closer to utilitarianism (witness the tortured argument for why a finite term is justified) and even somewhat Marxian (in its reliance on a labor theory of creation if not a labor theory of value).

The principled libertarian rejection of IP is completely unlibertarian and does not rely on labor-ownership as a basis of the homesteading principle.

Once again, Wildberry, your arguments completely fall apart.

Wildberry April 20, 2011 at 7:06 pm

@Stephan Kinsella April 20, 2011 at 3:52 pm

Yes, you are right. I missed that the first time around. He said “Locke recognized IP as property”.

I don’t want to get into a food fight with you about what Locke said or didn’t say about the relationship between IP and property. It is sufficient apparently, to acknowledge that you and Mossoff agree that a (physical) labor theory of property is not sufficient to support the fundamental principle that IP is in fact a natural property right.

Apparently you did not even read my post or listen to Mossoff’s lecture.

Yes, I did both. I was focusing on the main thrust of his lecture, that the treatment of IP from the founding and then through later court cases, and including contemporary libertarian objections to IP (in which context he mentions you by name) were/are plagued by a misunderstanding, according to Mossoff, about the nature of man and the fundamental nature of intellectual labor and values.

I find this entire subject of natural rights moot. You have agreed that an author owns his original manuscript. How one arrives at that conclusion apparently involves more than one path of reasoning. Personally, I arrive there through the principles of self-ownership and the private means of production. I fail to see why this needs to be continually debated, as if it is critical to establish who has the better reasons to justify a common holding.

The recognition that property arises because of scarcity is not utilitarian or Benthamite–or Marxian. Rather, the Randian argument itself is closer to utilitarianism (witness the tortured argument for why a finite term is justified) and even somewhat Marxian (in its reliance on a labor theory of creation if not a labor theory of value).

I am simply saying that I find it interesting that your theory of property, which rests on the concept of scarcity, is also at the foundation of Bentham’s utilitarianism, which is a foundation for Marxism. All three views proceed from a premise that presupposes scarcity as the initial condition, which you may rightly deny exists in the case of “ideas”, but which you then falsely equate with IP.

Not surprisingly, your conclusion that an author may only choose to keep his work secret or give it away (after the first sale, perhaps), is an outcome that is remarkably similar to that of the “greatest good for the greatest number” line of reasoning. In your view, the greatest good (of individual liberty) is served by the gratuitous disclosure by the author, since you seem unwilling to justify any reason to secure his rights beyond non-disclosure.

The right only to withhold the very thing that has been produced for the purpose of disclosure, leaves authors with little else than the more “communal” motivations; doing it for the good of the community rather than the profit-for-private-production reasons common to the non-socialist views of the importance of private property.

I see a similarity between this view and Marxism. The irony, as Mossoff points out, is that this position is being taken by the likes of you in the name of supposed private property rights of libertarianism. Apparently I am not alone in seeing a contradiction here.

The principled libertarian rejection of IP is completely unlibertarian and does not rely on labor-ownership as a basis of the homesteading principle.

I’m having a little trouble following your construction here, but I gather you are saying that the rejection of IP ownership rights based on labor-ownership is libertarian because of the homesteading principle?

If homesteading is the only way you allow property rights to be secured, then who homesteads the original manuscript?

If that property is homesteaded by the author, then doesn’t he have a property right in it?

If he has a property right in it, then isn’t he entitled, under libertarian property theory, to make separate transfers of the various economic rights that ownership implies?

If this can be done by contract, what is the reason that you deny that it can be done by operation of law? Aren’t we dealing with a same set of rights here?

If IP is not “real” property, how is it that you can agree that IP rights can be created by contract? Doesn’t a contract presuppose ownership, and doesn’t ownership presuppose property rights?

Your reliance on contracts as an “out” for your contradictions in the treatment of property rights simply ignores the externality issues raised by Mises and elaborated by Coase.
Have you ever addressed this issue? I admit I may have missed it in your extensive writings.

Again, I appreciate you pointing to this resource. I found it interesting and useful.

Stephan Kinsella April 20, 2011 at 7:33 pm

Yes, you are right. I missed that the first time around. He said “Locke recognized IP as property”.

Yes, I know I am right. You are mistaken, and confused, as usual.

I don’t want to get into a food fight with you about what Locke said or didn’t say about the relationship between IP and property.

hahah, NOW you don’t.

It is sufficient apparently, to acknowledge that you and Mossoff agree that a (physical) labor theory of property is not sufficient to support the fundamental principle that IP is in fact a natural property right.

what is the difference between physical and mental labor? this is all a smokescreen. you are all very confused.

I was focusing on the main thrust of his lecture,

not good enough, apparently.

that the treatment of IP from the founding and then through later court cases, and including contemporary libertarian objections to IP (in which context he mentions you by name) were/are plagued by a misunderstanding, according to Mossoff, about the nature of man and the fundamental nature of intellectual labor and values.

complete nonsense. you are saying nothing.

I find this entire subject of natural rights moot.

who cares?

… I find it interesting that your theory of property, which rests on the concept of scarcity, is also at the foundation of Bentham’s utilitarianism, which is a foundation for Marxism.

It is not. You are distorting, daft, or cannot read.

Peter Surda April 21, 2011 at 1:38 am

Stephan,

what is the difference between physical and mental labor?

Mental labour contains mentallium particles and these cause the creators to go mental when someone copies their work.

Wildberry April 20, 2011 at 8:34 pm

@Stephan Kinsella April 20, 2011 at 7:33 pm

Very responsive, as usual.

Andras April 21, 2011 at 5:47 am

He will run again and… write another one on the horrors of IP.

Stephan Kinsella April 21, 2011 at 6:53 am

? run? me? I answered him in detail. He is the one running.

Wildberry April 22, 2011 at 9:14 am

As I was saying…

If homesteading is the only way you allow property rights to be secured, then who homesteads the original manuscript?

If that property is homesteaded by the author, then doesn’t he have a property right in it?

If he has a property right in it, then isn’t he entitled, under libertarian property theory, to make separate transfers of the various economic rights that ownership implies?

If this can be done by contract, what is the reason that you deny that it can be done by operation of law? Aren’t we dealing with a same set of rights here?

If IP is not “real” property, how is it that you can agree that IP rights can be created by contract? Doesn’t a contract presuppose ownership, and doesn’t ownership presuppose property rights?

Your reliance on contracts as an “out” for your contradictions in the treatment of property rights simply ignores the externality issues raised by Mises and elaborated by Coase.

Have you ever addressed this issue? I admit I may have missed it in your extensive writings.

Peter Surda April 22, 2011 at 11:26 am

Wildberry,

If homesteading is the only way you allow property rights to be secured, then who homesteads the original manuscript?

The ownership of manuscript follows from the ownership of the paper and ink, rather than from the act of writing the novel or copying it. Therefore, in the typical case (using their own paper and ink and absent a contractual relationship), the author owns the original manuscript and the copier owns the copy.

The rest of your post is a confused amalgamation of ad hoc claims that have no relation to arguments your opponents on this site are making.

Peter Surda April 22, 2011 at 12:56 am

I find it hypocritical of you (if you’re the same Andras I debated in the past) to mention running away. I have yet to find an IP proponent, including you, that does not run away from a debate and/or provides a coherent explanation of their position.

As Stephan accurately observes in AIM, there are two main approaches in pro-IP arguments. The first one is based on natural rights, however the way IP proponents present it, it’s always self contradictory. The other ones, to which you appear to belong, claim that IP has beneficial effects (i.e. utilitarian approach). The problem with these claims is they are never accompanied by a definition of IP or a method of evaluating the said benefits, or they outright ignore that IP also has some detrimental effects.

Referring to this, I also find it hypocritical when you on one hand present some beneficial situation as an argument for IP, yet when Stephan or Jeffrey present another detrimental situation, you dismiss it by a sleight of a hand. You can’t even show a consistent methodology, yet alone arguments.

All in all, it’s just a big bluff. How a scientist subscribe to this I am at a loss. If you’re so convinced that you’re right, then provide scientific support for your position.

Wildberry April 22, 2011 at 11:48 am

@Peter Surda April 22, 2011 at 11:26 am

The ownership of manuscript follows from the ownership of the paper and ink, rather than from the act of writing the novel or copying it. Therefore, in the typical case (using their own paper and ink and absent a contractual relationship), the author owns the original manuscript and the copier owns the copy.

Regardless of HOW you justify ownership, the manuscript is owned by the author.

Therefore, the exact same conditions of copyrights can be created by contract between the parties to the contract. You could specify the meaning of “copying”, you could circumscribe the production of derivative works, and you could define a fair use doctrine.

In other words, in such a contract the owner can transfer any combinations of rights bundled in his ownership rights of the manuscript, and limit use in any way that is agreed to by both parties. The author could accomplish this by simply copying and pasting the text of the statutes into the contract and getting the acquiring party to sign, isn’t that correct? All of this could be made a condition of disclosure, if the other party agreed, right?

It would only be binding on the parties to the contract, yes, but it would be binding against breach of the conditions by the parties. Do you disagree?

If you don’t understand any other part of my post, you can limit yourself to this part.

Peter Surda April 23, 2011 at 5:39 am

Wildberry,

Therefore, the exact same conditions of copyrights can be created by contract between the parties to the contract.

There is no therefore. You can put any condition whatsoever into a contract. It does not require ownership. Other than that, it is correct, you can replicate the behaviour of IP in a contract, for the parties to the contract.

You could specify the meaning of “copying”, you could circumscribe the production of derivative works, and you could define a fair use doctrine.

Again, this is all correct.

In other words, in such a contract the owner can transfer any combinations of rights bundled in his ownership rights of the manuscript, and limit use in any way that is agreed to by both parties.

To call this “transfer” is misleading, because the ability to put conditions into a contract does not require ownership of anything.

So, we have now concluded that IP is not a contract (a contract can mimick IP, but that does not follow from the ownership of media apart from the human bodies themselves). Next, we need to show that IP is not trespass either.

While it is true that some types of copying require the copier to physically alter the source (and therefore, if the owner of the source disagrees, constitute trespass), it is also possible to copy something without altering it, for example, by passively intercepting radiation or waves reflected by the object (otherwise known as hearing and seeing), or by using a copy, rather than the original, as a source (for example, if a burglar manages to break into Schulman’s house and read his novel and then recite it to me afterwards). Copies created this way, and also copies made out of these, are not trespassory and their use, including for the manufacture of other copies, do not violate the author’s property rights.

In order for IP to make sense, you would need to redefine trespass as some sort of causal relationship that does not require physical interaction. Which, when phrased this way, many IP proponents find absurd (Stranger, for example, calls it “nonsense”, yet he does not recognise that by saying that he’s refuting himself). Of course, it still does not fix the problem of self-contradiction, so a lot of other IP proponents’ arguments are still off the table.

Wildberry April 23, 2011 at 11:57 am

@Peter Surda April 23, 2011 at 5:39 am

You say two interesting and comprehensible things:

You can put any condition whatsoever into a contract. It does not require ownership.

And:

To call this “transfer” is misleading, because the ability to put conditions into a contract does not require ownership of anything.

A contract is a mutual agreement to perform some act (or refrain from acting) for consideration.

On the facts we are discussing, the agreement is for author A to transfer or convey the manuscript (or a copy of it) for consideration by B, and B in exchange agrees to make some payment, and refrain from doing prohibited acts as specified in the contract.
Both parties are bound to perform according to the agreement, which may include some specified consequences for breach.

A contract presupposes the ownership of those things that are the subject of the contract, in this case, a manuscript (or copy) and money.

Please kindly explain how the subject of the contract between A and B can be for something that is not owned by either A or B.

Peter Surda April 24, 2011 at 6:58 am

Wildberry,

On the facts we are discussing, the agreement is for author A to transfer or convey the manuscript (or a copy of it) for consideration by B, and B in exchange agrees to make some payment, and refrain from doing prohibited acts as specified in the contract.

You are mixing together two separate arrangements (or contracts). The first one is the transfer of the manuscript or copy for remuneration. This can only be done by someone who posesses the said manuscript (or copy), and is only legal if he is the owner of the said object.

The second one is an arrangement to refrain from a certain action (copying the manuscript/copy). There is no requirement for possession or ownership of the manuscript (or copy) to enter into such contract. Anyone can do it, IP or no IP. Let us take as an example Alongside Night by Schulman. Although I don’t have a copy, nor have I read it or know what it is about, I can still enter into a contract with you, and we can agree that if you copy it without my permission, you owe me a dollar. This contract is possible and valid regardless of IP.

This already refutes your argument that such contracts are a transfer of economic rights, or have to do with rights in the manuscript/copy at all. But I’ll go even further and I’ll demonstrate that there does not even have to be a causal relationship between the manuscript/copy and the contract. For the contract described above to be valid, none of the following are necessary:
– Schulman having written Alongside Night
– Schulman claiming to have written Alongside Night
– anyone having written Alongside Night
– me thinking that someone wrote Alongside Night
– me thinking that it’s possible that someone wrote Alongside Night.

Let’s take a book called “Across Day” by Schulman. I may quite well know that there is no such book, yet it is still perfectly valid for me to enter into a contract where you promise to refrain from copying it. As for a sensibility of such a contract, obviously from the very narrow point of view, it’s a really stupid one (for me). However, I might have motives other than the contract itself. For example, I might laugh at confusing people, or find it strategically advantageous for them to think I’m stupid. Or I just might be a speculator and think that if enough people know about me making such contract(s), they will alter their behaviour and cause a change of market prices of some goods which I bought options for prior to the contract.

It might sound far fetched, but I am performing a reductio ad absurdum. It utterly demolishes your arguments and your “economic rights” nonsense. As a sidenote, it also demolishes Schulman’s “logorights”, because I clearly showed that a thing that, according to his own theory, does not exist, has a logos nevertheless.

Stephan Kinsella April 24, 2011 at 8:15 am

Surda is just amazing here. Fantastic application of Rothbardian contract ideas to this issue.

Peter Surda April 24, 2011 at 11:27 am

Thanks Stephan, this would not be possible without a fantastic teacher, the works published by the Mises Institute, and last but not least, my opponents, however confused they may be.

Wildberry April 24, 2011 at 1:19 pm

@Peter Surda April 24, 2011 at 6:58 am

With such high praise from the master, I feel I should be intimidated by your lengthy post before I read it. Let me humbly forge ahead…

You are mixing together two separate arrangements (or contracts). The first one is the transfer of the manuscript or copy for remuneration. This can only be done by someone who posesses the said manuscript (or copy), and is only legal if he is the owner of the said object.

Well, a single contract can say more than one thing, right? So you agree on the first point, that transfer of the manuscript for money presupposes ownership of those two things. Good.

The second one is an arrangement to refrain from a certain action (copying the manuscript/copy). There is no requirement for possession or ownership of the manuscript (or copy) to enter into such contract.

Of course not, but, because A already owns the manuscript, he can place any conditions he wishes on B for A’s promise to disclose it to B for the money B pays, assuming B agrees.

And because B owns his body and free will, he can make a promise to do, or refrain from doing as he chooses. If he did not own himself, he could not make such a promise.

So far, everyone owns what they are trading. I guess I could stop here, but let’s see what else you are offering…

This already refutes your argument that such contracts are a transfer of economic rights, or have to do with rights in the manuscript/copy at all.

My argument is that contracts presuppose ownership. Have you refuted that?

But I’ll go even further and I’ll demonstrate that there does not even have to be a causal relationship between the manuscript/copy and the contract. For the contract described above to be valid, none of the following are necessary:

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. What you say here is irrelevant. See above.

It utterly demolishes your arguments and your “economic rights” nonsense.

As usual, it is difficult to understand what you are arguing against here.

As Kinsella himself points out, the sale of mere hope is valid as the subject of a contract, provided the object of that hope comes into existence.

You can only make such a contract with someone who owns the ability to bring it about. So, to use his example, I can buy whatever catch you obtain when you haul your net. I can only make such a contract with someone who owns the means to deliver that catch.

So as I have said, which stands untouched by your creative writing, a contract presupposes ownership.

As a sidenote, it also demolishes Schulman’s “logorights”, because I clearly showed that a thing that, according to his own theory, does not exist, has a logos nevertheless.

As a side note, nonsense built upon nonsense is still nonsense.

Stephan Kinsella April 24, 2011 at 3:01 pm

“Wildberry”:

So you agree on the first point, that transfer of the manuscript for money presupposes ownership of those two things. Good.

Except you are equivocating on what “the manuscript” means. we woudl mean by it a scarce object impatterned a certain way. You are referring to a bundle of things, one of which is “the pattern.”

And because B owns his body and free will

You don’t own free will. What does this even mean?

So far, everyone owns what they are trading. I guess I could stop here, but let’s see what else you are offering…

This is confused. This is not what contracts are about. You can “trade” things but the things traded include conditional transfers of title to owned things; but the conditions that trigger these transfers are not owned.

My argument is that contracts presuppose ownership. Have you refuted that?

of the thing title to which is transferred. If I give you $100 of my future money IF it rains, then neither of us owns the rain, the condition, but yes, I have to own the $100 to transfer it to you.

As Kinsella himself points out, the sale of mere hope is valid as the subject of a contract, provided the object of that hope comes into existence.

that is not what I say at all. The sale is valid, whether the object comes into existence or not. If we contract now regarding a future event we both realize its existence is inherently uncertain.

Peter Surda April 24, 2011 at 9:49 pm

Wildberry,

Well, a single contract can say more than one thing, right? So you agree on the first point, that transfer of the manuscript for money presupposes ownership of those two things. Good.

A single sheet of paper, and a single “yes” can create more than one contract. However, from the point of view of legal analysis, it is crucial to comprehend what exactly the contracts are.

Of course not, but, because A already owns the manuscript, he can place any conditions he wishes on B for A’s promise to disclose it to B for the money B pays, assuming B agrees.

There is no “because”. Please stop making stuff up. The latter is not a consequence of the former, and sometimes there is not even a causal relationship of any kind between them. That was the whole point of my argument and it looks like you either missed it or are ignoring int. Confront it.

And because B owns his body and free will, he can make a promise to do, or refrain from doing as he chooses. If he did not own himself, he could not make such a promise.

Yes, this is correct. But the condition of non-copying does not require that either A or B possess or own the manuscript, so you cannot use the words “because”, “therefore” and “transfer” when referring to them. Confront it.

So far, everyone owns what they are trading. I guess I could stop here, but let’s see what else you are offering…

So far, you have committed a non-sequitur and ignore the whole point of my argument.

My argument is that contracts presuppose ownership.

No. Your argument is that if you put a noun into a contract, it requires that one of the parties own whatever the noun is referring to. It’s a rhetorical trick.

Have you refuted that?

Yes, I did. I showed that there is no need to own whatever arbitrary nouns in contract refer to, or even for the referred object to exist.

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. What you say here is irrelevant. See above.

It is irrelevant in the narrower sense, in that your argument is already refuted. But in the broader sense, it explains a more fundamental error you’re making. You’re putting together two unrelated things.

As usual, it is difficult to understand what you are arguing against here.
I am arguing against the confusion and logical fallacies you are producing. Showing that a noun occurs in a contract does not require any sort of property rights in whatever the noun refers to, or even its existence. Stop making stuff up and confront the errors you produce.

You can only make such a contract with someone who owns the ability to bring it about.

So, anyone can make a request that you do not copy Schulman’s book, and anyone can agree to not copying it, if they wish so. The contract is, evidently about Schulman’s book, yet there is a complete absence of rights or possession of it with respect to the contract. The book is not the subject of the contract. The potential copier is. Putting a noun in a contract, even though it might be critical for defining the scope of the contract, does not mean whatever the noun refers to is the subject of the contract.

You made up a condition and now that its relevance is refuted, you’re doing your usual smoke and mirrors.

So, to use his example, I can buy whatever catch you obtain when you haul your net. I can only make such a contract with someone who owns the means to deliver that catch.

Stop using confusing language. Putting a noun into a contract does not require the ownership of whatever the noun refers to.

Admit it Wildberry, you’re just stalling now. Your arguments have been shredded and I’m not backing down, I’m going to repeat the refutations. The next step in your approach, if memory serves right, is either an appeal to emotions or running away.

Wildberry April 24, 2011 at 11:46 pm

@Stephan Kinsella April 24, 2011 at 3:01 pm

Hello Mr. Kinsella. Happy Easter.

Except you are equivocating on what “the manuscript” means. we woudl mean by it a scarce object impatterned a certain way. You are referring to a bundle of things, one of which is “the pattern.”

Well, I don’t see that I am. I am calling it a manuscript, and it is what it is. If I own it and you want me to disclose it, then I believe I have the right to offer that disclosure under the terms I want and to which you agree. What else is needed?

You don’t own free will. What does this even mean?

I thought one of the key holdings of the Rothbard Title Transfer Theory was that human will is inalienable.

For example see here: http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/nineteen.asp
Let us take a seemingly more difficult case. Suppose that a celebrated movie actor agrees to appear at a certain theater at a certain date. For whatever reason, he fails to appear. Should he be forced to appear at that or at some future date? Certainly not, for that would be compulsory slavery. Should he be forced, at least, to recompense the theater owners for the publicity and other expenses incurred by the theater owners in anticipation of his appearance? No again, for his agreement was a mere promise concerning his inalienable will, which he has the right to change at any time. Put another way, since the movie actor has not yet received any of the theater owners’ property, he has committed no theft against the owners (or against anyone else), and therefore he cannot be forced to pay damages. The fact that the theater owners may have made considerable plans and investments on the expectation that the actor would keep the agreement may be unfortunate for the owners, but that is their proper risk. The theater owners should not expect the actor to be forced to pay for their lack of foresight and poor entrepreneurship. The owners pay the penalty for placing too much confidence in the actor. It may be considered more moral to keep promises than to break them, but any coercive enforcement of such a moral code, since it goes beyond the prohibition of theft or assault, is itself an invasion of the property rights of the movie actor and therefore impermissible in the libertarian society.

I presumed you knew what he was talking about. Would you like to explain?

This is confused. This is not what contracts are about. You can “trade” things but the things traded include conditional transfers of title to owned things; but the conditions that trigger these transfers are not owned.

I am not arguing that the conditions are owned. That is completely irrelevant. What I am saying is that the subject matter of contracts presupposes the ownership of that subject matter.

In the facts we are discussing a manuscript (or copy) is exchanged for money, under certain conditions of use. Under those conditions, a given price is offered. Under different conditions, the price would be calculated differently.

In any case, no contract can be formed between parties who do not own or control the subject matter of the contract. Do you have an objection to that representation?

If I give you $100 of my future money IF it rains, then neither of us owns the rain, the condition, but yes, I have to own the $100 to transfer it to you.

We agree then, the subject matter of the contract, $100 must be owned before it can be transferred under contract. However, you raise the example of a wagering contract, which is beyond the scope of our discussion.

In a typical contract, both parties offer a promise for a promise, with sufficient consideration. In a contract for the exchange of goods, the goods themselves are the basis for the bargain. This exchange may be conditioned in any way that is legal (i.e. non-voidable) and mutually agreeable. Do you disagree?

that is not what I say at all. The sale is valid, whether the object comes into existence or not. If we contract now regarding a future event we both realize its existence is inherently uncertain.

Not at all? A contract where the subject does not come into existence, or where the means of doing so are illegal, or where it is a violation of public policy, i.e. a wagering contract, is a hair-splitting issue that is not relevant to this discussion. Wagering contracts generally are voidable. They are distinguished from the “sale of hope” example, where one of the parties has the ability to bring the subject matter of the contract into existence; i.e. the fisherman will haul the net and transfer what it contains, which may be nothing.

In the case we are discussing here, both the manuscript and the consideration paid for it exist. Neither can be the subject of the contact for exchange, with or without conditions, unless they are owned or controlled by the principals. Do you disagree?

Stephan Kinsella April 25, 2011 at 12:49 am

Wildberry:

“Except you are equivocating on what “the manuscript” means. we woudl mean by it a scarce object impatterned a certain way. You are referring to a bundle of things, one of which is “the pattern.”

Well, I don’t see that I am. I am calling it a manuscript, and it is what it is. If I own it and you want me to disclose it, then I believe I have the right to offer that disclosure under the terms I want and to which you agree. What else is needed?

What is “a manuscript” exactly? Esp. nowadays. Is it a “file” transmitted over the Internet?

“You don’t own free will. What does this even mean?”

I thought one of the key holdings of the Rothbard Title Transfer Theory was that human will is inalienable.

That does not mean you “own” free will. Free will is a capacity. Do you own capacities? For example, you have the capacity to lift weights, and to remember. Do you own “memory” and “weight-lifting”? Rothbard never said such a silly thing.

Let us take a seemingly more difficult case. Suppose that a celebrated movie actor agrees to appear at a certain theater at a certain date. For whatever reason, he fails to appear. Should he be forced to appear at that or at some future date? Certainly not, for that would be compulsory slavery. Should he be forced, at least, to recompense the theater owners for the publicity and other expenses incurred by the theater owners in anticipation of his appearance? No again, for his agreement was a mere promise concerning his inalienable will, which he has the right to change at any time.

Depends on what his contract was. If he agreed to pay damages in the event he did not perform, ten he has indeed alienated title to some of his money.

Put another way, since the movie actor has not yet received any of the theater owners’ property, he has committed no theft against the owners (or against anyone else), and therefore he cannot be forced to pay damages.

No. Paying damages has nothing to do with whether he has committed theft or received any property. It is whether or not he contractually transferred some of HIS money based on some condition.

The fact that the theater owners may have made considerable plans and investments on the expectation that the actor would keep the agreement may be unfortunate for the owners, but that is their proper risk.

Unless they made sure that the actor agreed to pay damages in the event he did not show up. Which would be a standard provision of such agreements, and understood, implicit.

The theater owners should not expect the actor to be forced to pay for their lack of foresight and poor entrepreneurship. The owners pay the penalty for placing too much confidence in the actor. It may be considered more moral to keep promises than to break them, but any coercive enforcement of such a moral code, since it goes beyond the prohibition of theft or assault, is itself an invasion of the property rights of the movie actor and therefore impermissible in the libertarian society.

Again, you misapprehend the nature of contracts and Rothbard’s title transfer theory.

the subject matter of contracts presupposes the ownership of that subject matter.

The “subject matter” (in idiosyncratic your sense) is always whatever alienable property is conditionally transferred.

In the facts we are discussing a manuscript (or copy) is exchanged for money, under certain conditions of use.

You have yet to define what a “manuscript” is, but fine.

In the case we are discussing here, both the manuscript and the consideration paid for it exist. Neither can be the subject of the contact for exchange, with or without conditions, unless they are owned or controlled by the principals. Do you disagree?

Your question is incoherent.

Wildberry April 25, 2011 at 12:06 pm

@Stephan Kinsella April 25, 2011 at 12:49 am

What is “a manuscript” exactly? Esp. nowadays. Is it a “file” transmitted over the Internet?

Do you really take issue here? The manuscript in question is an original work of authorship that the author produced with his own private means, and which has not been shared with anyone. For simplicity, let’s assume it is written on paper with ink. That is the point of departure.

You have said that you do not object to the assertion that this work (manuscript) is the property of the author, and as such, he has the right to1)keep it secret, or 2) disclose it, in which case the author no longer has rights to it any more than the recipient. To use your words, the author cannot whine about others using the information. Isn’t this your position?

That does not mean you “own” free will. Free will is a capacity. Do you own capacities? For example, you have the capacity to lift weights, and to remember. Do you own “memory” and “weight-lifting”? Rothbard never said such a silly thing.

No I don’t own “capacity” in general, i.e. “all capacity”, but I do own my own particular capacities because they are derived from my ownership of self. In the absence of slavery or the rights of others, I have free will to act as I please, subject only to the laws of nature, and can therefore exchange my promise to act for valuable consideration.

If he agreed to pay damages in the event he did not perform, ten he has indeed alienated title to some of his money.

Yes, he has alienated his money, but not his will. He can promise a future act, but not his will to act. Will is inalienable.

Put another way, since the movie actor has not yet received any of the theater owners’ property, he has committed no theft against the owners (or against anyone else), and therefore he cannot be forced to pay damages.

No. Paying damages has nothing to do with whether he has committed theft or received any property. It is whether or not he contractually transferred some of HIS money based on some condition.

Paying damages has to do with whether he has breached a valid contract. Rothbard and you take a different tack on this than I and standard contract theories do. I would say that a valid contract is enforceable according to the relevant theories of remedies. Of course, consideration is a requirement for a valid contract, as is legality, so in some ways I suppose both approaches can reach the same outcome, since a promise without consideration is unenforceable.

The fact that the theater owners may have made considerable plans and investments on the expectation that the actor would keep the agreement may be unfortunate for the owners, but that is their proper risk.

Unless they made sure that the actor agreed to pay damages in the event he did not show up. Which would be a standard provision of such agreements, and understood, implicit.

Interestingly, given there is no police or courts in the ancap world you envision, you are left with self-help remedies in the event the actor promises and doesn’t deliver either his services or the damages. The personal costs of enforcement would be considered transactions costs, do you agree?

The theater owners should not expect the actor to be forced to pay for their lack of foresight and poor entrepreneurship. The owners pay the penalty for placing too much confidence in the actor. It may be considered more moral to keep promises than to break them, but any coercive enforcement of such a moral code, since it goes beyond the prohibition of theft or assault, is itself an invasion of the property rights of the movie actor and therefore impermissible in the libertarian society.

Again, you misapprehend the nature of contracts and Rothbard’s title transfer theory.

You do realize you are debating Rothbard here, right? I copied him verbatim and gave you the link. Hmmm. He misapprehends his own theory of contracts?

The “subject matter” (in idiosyncratic your sense) is always whatever alienable property is conditionally transferred.

We agree then. In this case the subject matter is a manuscript and money in exchange, under limitations of use that replicate the rules of copyright. Good.

You have yet to define what a “manuscript” is, but fine.

See above, OK?

In the case we are discussing here, both the manuscript and the consideration paid for it exist. Neither can be the subject of the contact for exchange, with or without conditions, unless they are owned or controlled by the principals. Do you disagree?

Your question is incoherent.

Allow me to attempt to facilitate your comprehension.

First, we are not talking about non-existent things, so we can dispense with any further discussions of that issue, correct?

Second, I am saying that a contract presupposes the ownership of the subject matter.

The subject matter of the contract under discussion is a manuscript and money.

Here, the author owns the manuscript (undisclosed original work of authorship).

The buyer owns the money (which he has agreed to pay and the author has agreed to accept).

They both agree on specific conditions of use of the manuscript.

They reduce this agreement to a written document and both sign it.

The author performs by tendering the manuscript.

The buyer performs by tendering the money and abiding by the terms of use.

Failure to abide by the terms of use is a breach of the agreement, and results in damages liability against the buyer and in favor of the author.

Such breaches of the terms of use may be specified as conditions subsequent, triggering specified damages, or the payment of a performance bond, etc. that have been made part of the contract.

That’s the way it works, do you agree? Do you have any issues with the operation of such a contract?

Stephan Kinsella April 25, 2011 at 2:35 pm

Nymberry:

What is “a manuscript” exactly? Esp. nowadays. Is it a “file” transmitted over the Internet?

Do you really take issue here? The manuscript in question is an original work of authorship that the author produced with his own private means, and which has not been shared with anyone. For simplicity, let’s assume it is written on paper with ink. That is the point of departure.

Just making sure. You guys is slippery.

If he agreed to pay damages in the event he did not perform, ten he has indeed alienated title to some of his money.

Yes, he has alienated his money, but not his will. He can promise a future act, but not his will to act. Will is inalienable.

Untrue. It’s just not alienable by mouthing of words (making a contract). It is alienable by commiting acts of aggression. this is just why it’s permissible to jail a bad guy.

No. Paying damages has nothing to do with whether he has committed theft or received any property. It is whether or not he contractually transferred some of HIS money based on some condition.

Paying damages has to do with whether he has breached a valid contract.

Wrong. Technically speaking it’s not possible to “breach” a contract. This is the mentality of the enforceable-promises view of things. Think of the “damages” as a performance bond. Read up on “efficient breach” theory of contract.

Rothbard and you take a different tack on this than I and standard contract theories do.

Yes, and Evers. Read Evers and Rothbard. I elaborate on this too.

I would say that a valid contract is enforceable according to the relevant theories of remedies.

nonsense.

Of course, consideration is a requirement for a valid contract,

nonsense. this is stupid statism.

as is legality, so in some ways I suppose both approaches can reach the same outcome, since a promise without consideration is unenforceable.

The fact that the theater owners may have made considerable plans and investments on the expectation that the actor would keep the agreement may be unfortunate for the owners, but that is their proper risk.

Unless they made sure that the actor agreed to pay damages in the event he did not show up. Which would be a standard provision of such agreements, and understood, implicit.

Interestingly, given there is no police or courts in the ancap world you envision, you are left with self-help remedies in the event the actor promises and doesn’t deliver either his services or the damages.

this is not true, but what has this to do with anything?

You do realize you are debating Rothbard here, right? I copied him verbatim and gave you the link. Hmmm. He misapprehends his own theory of contracts?

Nonsense. Try to ask a coherent question. Then you will see.

We agree then. In this case the subject matter is a manuscript and money in exchange,

If you mean by “manuscript” a scarce owned object.

under limitations of use that replicate the rules of copyright. Good.

NOt really limitations. Just triggers for the transfer of money payments.

Second, I am saying that a contract presupposes the ownership of the subject matter.

“the” subject matter? sounding crankish already.

They both agree on specific conditions of use of the manuscript.

Not really. They agree that IF X uses it it in certain ways THEN he transfers $Y to the other guy.

Of course, why the hell would I buy a $15 book if it might subject me to millions of dollars in penalties? No thank you. Such onerous penalties would doom these sales. So of course full-use books would emerge, just as even iTunes had to change to DRM free.

Failure to abide by the terms of use is a breach of the agreement, and results in damages liability against the buyer and in favor of the author.

not a breach, just a contemplated action that results in a payment of money damages.

Such breaches of the terms of use may be specified as conditions subsequent, triggering specified damages, or the payment of a performance bond, etc. that have been made part of the contract.

That’s the way it works, do you agree? Do you have any issues with the operation of such a contract?

not sure what you mena. it’s not up to me. but the point is this can’t bind third parties.

Crosbie Fitch April 25, 2011 at 3:07 pm

Liberty (‘will’, whatever) is an inalienable right – full stop. Let alone contract, it isn’t even alienable due to violence. Even in prison, inmates still possess their right to liberty. Remember that by definition, liberty is freedom delimited by the rights of others, e.g. to life. Prison is a contraction of an individual’s freedom until such time as they are rehabilitated and their threat to others’ lives (and privacy, etc.) returns to normal.

Wildberry April 25, 2011 at 6:51 pm

@Stephan Kinsella April 25, 2011 at 2:35 pm

but the point is this can’t bind third parties.

Well, it appears to me that you have finally come kicking and screaming to the point where you and I agree on the following:

1. Whether under existing contract theory, or Rothbard’s TTTC, a contract may be formed between an author and a buyer that incorporates the terms of usage that is the equivalent to copyright terms.

2. Such a contract presupposes the ownership of the subject matter of the contract; an exchange for the manuscript for money.

3. Regardless of whether you apply contracts, torts or TTTC theories, if the condition subsequent occurs (prohibited use), money would flow from the buyer to the author; damages or the payment of a performance bond.

4. It does not bind third parties to those terms.

5. Sales of books as we understand it will likely cease because sales under these conditions are doomed.

Let’s be clear on this last point. Regardless of the “technical solution” employed to compensate the author for the breach (or read “failure to act in the proscribed way” if you prefer) the amount of that payment will be calculated on some basis, and by your estimate would amount to “millions”. Let’s assume that figure.

This payment is an externality that will have to be accounted for in the cost of the book. For example, the price of the book to the buyer would be $15 plus the cost of the performance bond. Because it is a form of insurance, it will be priced as a function of the liability times the actuarial probability that payment will be made. This will likely settle at something close to the liability itself, and so, as you say, sales will be doomed.

And so, as you say:

Of course, why the hell would I buy a $15 book if it might subject me to millions of dollars in penalties? No thank you. Such onerous penalties would doom these sales.

So a long time ago, I said that in the absence of copyright protection, authors would be producing for an external market, and given the choice they would not do it.
Let’s revisit the options you introduced earlier. 1) keep it secret and deny public access 2) disclose it and grant public access.

Both options are subject to the economic problem of externalities, where the cost of production, including these external costs, will be borne by the producer or the consumer, or both. You seem to argue that it is viable for them to be solely the cost to the producer.

I think we have shown that option 1) is nearly impossible unless disclosure is never made. Even if a contracting system could result in maintaining controlled access (secrecy), the transaction cost would be so high that a single buyer and seller are unlikely to reach an accord.

Even if they did, the entire process would have to be repeated for a second buyer and each one that follows. Each would have their own performance bond which for each the cost would approach the potential liability. Books now cost millions instead of $15.

This leave option 2. The author doesn’t care about profit, and abandons his desire to recover costs (capital investment) plus profit, and releases it freely (i.e. ideas are free). He is producing for an external economy, and according to the rule of bankruptcy, leaves the market. Producers do not voluntarily choose to be slaves to external economies.

Under 1) books are produced but not sold, or under 2) books are free, and eventually are not produced.

This brings us to this final comment:

So of course full-use books would emerge, just as even iTunes had to change to DRM free.

Although I agree that the industry in both music and book sales is evolving and adapting to the impacts of new technology, this in no way disturbs the fundamental premise that the musical artists own the products of their own production. This iTunes/DRM story is more about the effectiveness of one strategy over another than about the legitimacy of copyrights. That question is not touched by this story.

In the absence of any copyrights, iTunes is still left only with the problem of how to profit from a song that sells for 99¢. They are not dealing with the problem of the production of songs for external economies. If that 99¢ didn’t find its way in some proportion back upstream to the original producers, then it is unlikely that production based on a profit motive would exist.

You would not insist that a manufacturer of bread would still produce if his loaves were available for free, yet you have no problem reaching this conclusion in regard to IP. How do you explain the difference, in economic terms?

So after all is said and done, I have asked you this question many times now; How do you account for the need for producers to produce for external economies in a non-IP market?

To assert that these externalities will be internalized through entrepreneurial activity does not appear to have a pathway in your vision of a market without IP.

This amounts to an assertion that a free market can develop without a concept of private property. Have you ever addressed this issue in your writing? I have not seen it.

Crosbie Fitch April 25, 2011 at 7:06 pm

Wildberry, you seem to imagine that without copyright, author and readers will stare blankly at each other refusing to do business. Given author can produce writing readers want, and readers can supply money author wants, to conclude that these two parties will refuse to make an agreeable exchange is a grievous failure of imagination (no doubt due to copyright brainwashing).

Try to imagine the possibility of multiple simultaneous contracts. Each reader offers $10. The author offers a sequel. How many readers’ offers would the author consider equitable? 1,000? Whatever the number of readers, the quality/quantity of writing, the money offered/invited, exchanges remain possible. You do not have to cleave to the 18th century model of printing copies and selling copies. It is possible to exchange writing for money DIRECTLY.

Wildberry April 26, 2011 at 10:36 am

@Crosbie Fitch April 25, 2011 at 7:06 pm

Try to imagine the possibility of multiple simultaneous contracts. Each reader offers $10. The author offers a sequel. How many readers’ offers would the author consider equitable? 1,000? Whatever the number of readers, the quality/quantity of writing, the money offered/invited, exchanges remain possible. You do not have to cleave to the 18th century model of printing copies and selling copies. It is possible to exchange writing for money DIRECTLY.

Let me just address the most grievous of your assumptions. We can talk about my brain washing another time.

What you suggest is not difficult to imagine. Now try to apply this fantasy, that everything just works out, to the realities of the market place.

You are a new author. No one has heard of you. You have written a highly technical work that has taken several years to complete. You know, under the non-IP rules, that once you disclose it, you have one shot to make back all that you will make on your investment. If it was so easy to get from there to where you imagine 1,000s of buyers willing to offer real money, sight unseen, for your book seems just a little bit unrealistic.

You can’t sell it to a publisher and let them take care of advertising and publicity, because they only have one shot too, since copyrights don’t exist in your fantasy.

So I suppose you can do what Kinsella and other’s imagine, you can give it away, and accept that this world you imagine, authors must resign themselves to work for external economies. And from there, all you have to do is imagine that this will have absolutely no effect on the decision to write the next book, or for some author somewhere realizing that, unlike other endeavors, in the case of writing, you don’t own what you make.

No rational person is going to spend their time producing for external economies. But of course it is easy to just imagine that not to be the case. It is possible for pigs to fly, but it must not be profitable, one assumes, since the market does not regularly produce flying pigs. Can you imagine a scenario where they are? Good for you.

Crosbie Fitch April 26, 2011 at 11:22 am

It’s an iterative process, going from ‘undiscovered & unloved’ to ‘discovered & commissioned’. Initial portfolio works will be published (given away) as promotional loss leaders, and this then transitions, as the interested audience swells and its commission becomes significant, from loss to profit. Unless of course, no-one’s interested to incentivise further work from the artist.

Remember, there is no choice in this. The monopoly of copyright has ended. When you can no longer sell copies you must sell work instead – to those who want it produced. That is a free market.

You’ve already recognised that without copyright commerce in intellectual work is impossible via the intermediary mechanism of copies. That’s why I’m pointing out that the future involves exchanging the work – not copies of it.

Wildberry April 26, 2011 at 11:48 am

@Crosbie Fitch April 26, 2011 at 11:22 am

That’s why I’m pointing out that the future involves exchanging the work – not copies of it.

What does this mean?

Peter Surda April 27, 2011 at 5:19 am

Wildberry,

The subject matter of the contract under discussion is a manuscript and money.

The subject matter of the contract of sale of the manuscript is the manuscript and money. The subject matter of the contract of prohibition of copying of the manuscript is not the manuscript, but the potential copier. So stop confusing the issue.

They both agree on specific conditions of use of the manuscript.

Even if this was right (it isn’t), still the agreement not to copy a manuscript is not a use of that manuscript. Only in the metaphorical sense, which has no place in a scientific debate. Stop using confusing language and admit your error.

That’s the way it works, do you agree?

No, that’s not the way it works. I refuted it several times already.

To paraphrase a famous saying: an error repeated thousand times becomes a lie.

Peter Surda May 8, 2011 at 4:40 pm

Crosbie,

Wildberry, you seem to imagine that without copyright, author and readers will stare blankly at each other refusing to do business.

Actually, it’s worse. According to Wildberry, author and readers would stare blankly at each other and look for excuses not to deal with each other. Because that is what Wildberry understands, that’s all he ever does: look for excuses.

Wildberry April 27, 2011 at 2:03 pm

@ Peter Surda April 27, 2011 at 5:19 am

The subject matter of the contract of sale of the manuscript is the manuscript and money. The subject matter of the contract of prohibition of copying of the manuscript is not the manuscript, but the potential copier. So stop confusing the issue.

On the subject of creating consusion, this is priceless. Who knows what you are trying to say?

Peter Surda April 28, 2011 at 2:15 am

Wildberry,

On the subject of creating consusion, this is priceless. Who knows what you are trying to say?

That was at least the second reformulation of my argument (i.e. I already made it three times at least in total). First you misrepresent it, then you ignore it and then complain that you don’t understand it. You’re a fraud, Fraudberry. Your pretense of knowledge follows a predictable path. Now that you’ve appealed to emotions, the only step left is to cowardly run away. You’ve exhausted your repertoire. But who knows, maybe you’ll learn some new tricks and humour us.

And now the fourth time: you are presenting two contracts as if it was one. There is no “restricted sale contract” or other made-up-adhocery. There are two contracts:
– the sale contract of the manuscript. Requires possession of the manuscript to be possible, and ownership to be legal. The manuscript is the subject of the contract.
– the contract to avoid copying of the manuscript. Does not require possession or ownership, and might not even require a causal relationship. The manuscript is not the subject of this contract.

So stop making up stuff.

DixieFlatline April 20, 2011 at 8:54 pm

who cares?

Exactly. I have no idea how you (Stephan) have the patience to keep debating with Luddites.

J. Murray April 21, 2011 at 7:49 am

It’s more along the lines of an entertainment factor.

DixieFlatline April 21, 2011 at 9:34 am

I honestly can’t tell if Wildberry has ignored all of the material, and ignores all of the responses (I tried to debate with him last week, to no avail) or he is just out and out trolling.

The reason I wonder if he is trolling, is that someone with such a low capacity to comprehend surely must have to labor 12 hours per day to support a modest lifestyle, and wouldn’t have so much time to be the one man Stephan Kinsella fan club. Then again, he could be on welfare, and the joke is on all of us who pay taxes.

Wildberry April 22, 2011 at 9:16 am

DF,

You made a suugestion which I asked you to explain. Did you?

nate-m April 24, 2011 at 7:21 am

Also I’d like to remind everybody that while it’s all fine and dandy to debate a theoretical framework for ethical IP under libertarian dogma, the negative effects of existing IP law are large and wide ranging.

Right now there are lawyers and groups suing successful capitalists for products that the plaintiffs had no hand in creating and had produce no competitive product. There are millionaires right now that did nothing but sue other people for being successful.

IP laws are a multi billion dollar drain on our economy. This is stifling competition and favoring companies who invest in lawyers and bureaucrats over ones that invest in engineers and products.

Laws related to maintaining copyright are becoming increasingly draconian and punitive. People are being sued tens of thousands of dollars for distributing songs which can be listened to for free on any radio or downloaded for pennies from websites legally. Individuals are being threatened, harassed. DRM laws have ruined companies, caused people to be sent to jail for sharing nothing but information, and are a affront to property rights and personal liberty.

In a world were we now have the ability to freely share all of human knowledge and the collected works of all humans from all of recorded history with all people alive today… for pennies per person… we have governments propping up fascist laws to protect the profitability of a handful of politically connected corporations running obsolete business models that originated when we required people to actually print and physically transport media.

They are the buggy whip manufacturers of our time and their profitability is now enforced by law. Houses are raiding, property is seized, old women and families are terrorized by lawyers and law enforcement for their children breaking laws that harmed no person. The government is engaging in secret international negotiations to force these evils on third world nations and undermine constitutional protections. Obama and friends are seeking ways of leveraging copyright enforcement schemes for wiretapping and monitoring of individuals.

Companies are no longer able to produce hardware and software products freely. They need to pay patent fees, support design decisions that undermine the quality of their products, increase prices, and are forced to undermine the ownership rights of their customers. Corporations are using patents as shields to stifle innovation and competition.

The loss of individual liberty and economic activity directly and indirectly to IP and IP enforcement is staggering. It’s large, it’s ongoing, and it is increasing.

Stephan Kinsella April 24, 2011 at 8:16 am

Damn this is good, Nate-m. You and Surda are on FIE YA.

Peter Surda April 24, 2011 at 10:50 am

You are so right nate-m. Upon reading the Piracy book I reviewed a couple of days ago, I started thinking that maybe compulsory licensing would be a workable solution if abolition was not an option. This would eliminate large chunk of the negative effects of IP with a sweep. It solves the “problem” of “inventors” who can’t come up with a usable business strategy, it satisfies the utilitarians, and even Gene Quinn’s request for openness. The only ones who’d protests are patent trolls (who are not a liked by anyone anyway) and natural rightsers (who are just self-contradictory fanatics and I don’t think much can be done about that).

Up next: the producers of tortellini, pelmeni and wonton sue each other for patent violations.

Stephan Kinsella April 24, 2011 at 11:07 am

Yep; I argue for a compulsory license here http://mises.org/daily/4018 —

Remove Patent Injunctions/Provide Compulsory Royalties

Paying royalties is one thing. This is similar to a tax. It impedes and puts a drag on efficiency. Worse still is the prospect of an injunction, which can simply shut a company down. Quite often this is what a competitor will seek. They do not want damages or money: they want to dominate the market and eliminate competition. Or the threat of injunction is used to basically wring money from an alleged infringer (e.g., the $600 million RIM (BlackBerry) had to pay, even though the patents were under appeal at the PTO, due to the threat of an injunction).

If the purpose of the patent system is to provide some incentive to innovators, then receiving a monetary payment should be sufficient. Patent injunctions should be abolished entirely. The only remedy should be an award of damages (for past infringement) or a compulsory license (ongoing royalties based on future “infringement”).

This would prevent patentees from shutting down competitors. At most, they could impose a small “tax.” Litigation costs, insurance premiums, and the ability of patentees to extract unreasonable royalties from alleged infringers would be radically curtailed. On the other hand, because patentees would still be able to seek reasonable royalties, there would still remain a substantial incentive to file for patents.

The compulsory licensing approach is not new. Some countries impose compulsory licensing on patentees who do not adequately “work” the patent.[33] The United States already provides for compulsory licensing in certain cases, as the US government threatened to do in the Cipro anthrax drug case.[34] Also, in the wake of the recent eBay case, some courts are awarding some form of ongoing royalty of compulsory license instead of an injunction.[35]

Crosbie Fitch April 24, 2011 at 1:38 pm

I suggest rather than a compulsory license/Internet levy from the people to reward all those corporations that so greedily exploited the people’s liberty for the last three centuries, that instead THEY are fined to compensate the people for the liberty and opportunities they’ve lost. Abolishing copyright and patent is the LEAST to be done. Why should the people pay AGAIN for the restoration of their liberty?

A compulsory license is a mulct – for liberty that is the people’s by nature, by right.

I’m disappointed any libertarian would suggest paying a ransom as a ‘solution’. In any case, as with a monopoly, it is still thermodynamically inefficient – collecting money from all in order to disburse to all (minus 50% admin, and 49% to legacy privilege holders). I suppose at least the injustice and corruption is a little more economically obvious.

Peter Surda May 8, 2011 at 4:50 pm

Crosbie,

it’s a utilitarian argument. Like would you prefer living in US or North Korea.

Wildberry April 24, 2011 at 3:22 pm

@nate-m April 24, 2011 at 7:21 am

In light of your star pupil status, I can only sheepishly offer my humble response.

Right now there are lawyers and groups suing successful capitalists for products that the plaintiffs had no hand in creating and had produce no competitive product. There are millionaires right now that did nothing but sue other people for being successful.

I am wondering how you think any of these millionaires found themselves in a position of being able to sue someone else for something? Doesn’t this presuppose they must have owned something in the first place? How can you sue someone if you have not right to do so in the first place? Aren’t you assuming quite a few conclusions here?

IP laws are a multi billion dollar drain on our economy. This is stifling competition and favoring companies who invest in lawyers and bureaucrats over ones that invest in engineers and products.

Although it is obviously true that there are costs associated with the enforcement of rights, I have no idea how you can conclude that these costs outweigh the benefits of having these rights. I don’t have the data to support that argument either way, therefore, how you can be so sure of your conclusions here? Do you have some data, or you just “know its true”?

Laws related to maintaining copyright are becoming increasingly draconian and punitive. People are being sued tens of thousands of dollars for distributing songs which can be listened to for free on any radio or downloaded for pennies from websites legally.

Aren’t you discounting the capital investment that necessarily preceded their availability on these websites? If you included these costs in your estimates, wouldn’t the outcome you claim be effected? And more importantly, if you don’t, then aren’t you consuming in a market that is external to the original producer? How do you account for that, economically?

Individuals are being threatened, harassed. DRM laws have ruined companies, caused people to be sent to jail for sharing nothing but information, and are a affront to property rights and personal liberty.

This may all be true, but it all begs the question as to whose rights are being violated.

In a world were we now have the ability to freely share all of human knowledge and the collected works of all humans from all of recorded history with all people alive today… for pennies per person… we have governments propping up fascist laws to protect the profitability of a handful of politically connected corporations running obsolete business models that originated when we required people to actually print and physically transport media.

All of this presupposes the existence of the information you want to possess, and says nothing about the process that necessarily preceded its existence. You are implying that all of the knowledge of the world, which you feel so freely entitled to, was simply laying around on the ground waiting for you to use it. While this may be true to some degree, it certainly is not entirely true. I don’t believe even Kinsella’s paper, Against IP was laying around before he capitalized its production.

They are the buggy whip manufacturers of our time and their profitability is now enforced by law.

Isn’t this true for all private production? Isn’t my profitability as a hotel owner enforced by the law of exclusive use and possession of private property? Are you proposing that all private property laws be abolished for the reasons you give here?

Houses are raiding, property is seized, old women and families are terrorized by lawyers and law enforcement for their children breaking laws that harmed no person. The government is engaging in secret international negotiations to force these evils on third world nations and undermine constitutional protections. Obama and friends are seeking ways of leveraging copyright enforcement schemes for wiretapping and monitoring of individuals.

Old women and crippled children are being terrorized by lawyers! That is awful! There ought to be a law!
Injustice is injustice. I agree. Because something specifically is unjust does not mean that everything is therefore generally and absolutely unjust. When people act unjustly, they should be stopped. We need to distinguish when that is the case. Personal outrage and inflammatory rhetoric is not enough.

Companies are no longer able to produce hardware and software products freely. They need to pay patent fees, support design decisions that undermine the quality of their products, increase prices, and are forced to undermine the ownership rights of their customers. Corporations are using patents as shields to stifle innovation and competition.

Yes, and people who merely want a little exercise are being excluded from other’s private property! This is insane!

The loss of individual liberty and economic activity directly and indirectly to IP and IP enforcement is staggering. It’s large, it’s ongoing, and it is increasing.

I suppose it is redundant of me to suggest that the question-begging here is monumental. As you probably know, although it is an inconvenient truth in the context of IP debates, rights to act are limited by the rights of others, so all the hyperbole in support of unlimited rights for one person is simply offset by the loss of rights in another. Of course, it would be inconvenient to consider that issue. That is complicated. Ideology is simple.

FYI, it is an issue of the boundaries of rights and the existence of economic externalities. Unless you are willing to deal with that issue, all the horrors you can mention are simply one side of the same coin. Coins have two sides.

Stephan Kinsella April 24, 2011 at 2:30 pm

Crosbie I am simply suggesting getting rid of injunctions. Then only royalties would be left. This is an improvement

Crosbie Fitch April 25, 2011 at 3:19 pm

A slave might say that having liberty in exchange for diverting 99% of their future income to their master (a transferable title) was an improvement to captivity.

Beware of suggesting ‘improvements’ that the ©artels might just take you up on.

Thomas Cowan December 5, 2011 at 7:41 pm

I’m a little late to the game, but for anyone still interested in this post:

I really wish those discussing philosophic ideas in general, and Ayn Rand in particular, would actually be familiar with those ideas. IP is not the “base of [Ayn Rand’s] whole system.” She put forth a logically connected philosophy beginning from the axiom that “existence exists,” connecting every point from thereon logically, all the way up to her defense of IP (and beyond). One cannot properly speak of her defense of IP without discussing her views on metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. It is the deeper ideas of an objective reality, the efficacy of reason, and the morality of self-interest that are at the root of IP. For further reading, see “Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand” by Leonard Peikoff.

Peter Surda December 6, 2011 at 4:56 am

Ah, yet another “ethics beats logic” argument.

Share
{ 14 comments }

Live by the Sword…

From Mises Blog…

Live by the Sword…

TAGS Monopoly and CompetitionValue and Exchange

12/18/2007

Am I unlibertarian for hoping this guy wins? I mean, live by the sword, die by the sword, right? These companies clearly actively pursue, support, and employ government monopolies (patents) and use them to squelch competition. If this happens to violate federal anti-trust law, is this a tragedy? Man files antitrust lawsuit over printer ink Posted Dec 18th 2007 9:52PM by Joshua Topolsky Filed under: Peripherals One brave, intelligent, and super-cool Boston man has taken the law into his own hands — vis-​à-vis a bunch of attorneys — and is taking HP and Staples to task for an alleged antitrust scheme. According to Ranjit Bedi, the two companies have been in cahoots in an attempt to stop the sale of inexpensive, third-party printer ink at Staples stores. In the suit, it’s suggested that HP paid Staples $100 million to refrain from sale of the cartridges. The story might be harder to believe if it weren’t for the nature of the printer ink business, which seems to be rife with companies engaging in questionable business practices (like selling cartridges which give you an inaccurate read on ink remaining, barring the use of third-party cartridges, and wildly overcharging for branded ink). If you’ve ever owned an ink-jet printer, we’re pretty sure you know exactly what we’re talking about. People — it’s time to fight back.

Archived comments (and here):

{ 76 comments… read them below or add one }

Stephan Kinsella December 21, 2007 at 7:42 am

Kevin: “Me: “Can you homestead a frequency? No…When you shoot them through another’s property without permission, you are, in fact, trespassing. The way you explain it sounds as if you argue that if you are the first to begin broadcasting through an area, you then own the right to broadcast through that area. That sounds illogical.”

Stephan Kinsella: “You lost me. That is in fact the idea behind homesteading of airwaves.”

Okay, without having read too much on the idea, I’m willing to put some thought into it.

The first problem I have, though, is that those radio waves may be affecting others’ property.

For instance: Say, I am the first to build a transmitter and begin transmitting. The radio waves I transmit pass through (and interact with) my neighbor’s house, appliances, dog, etc.

Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?”

This is where the cocncpets of trespass, scarcity/rivalrousness, “use,” “nuisance,” and “relevant technological unit” come into play (see Rothbad on this). I think these concepts have to come into play in defining praxeoloigcally what property is. In fact, merey by existing, and moving around, you cause various perturbations of the EM field and gravitational field, causing those waves to pass through everyone else’s property, no? But this is not a “use” of their property b/c it does not practically affect their own use of their property. If it does not prevent their use of their property, then it’s not a conflict, so not a trespass. Etc.

“Second, the idea of owning a “path” seems illogical to me, since a path is no more than a description of physical property.”

I could see an argument for a property rigth in a path–an easement or right of way; this has implications for shipping lanes and airways (where planes fly).

We must remember property is not purely physical but has a praxeological aspect.

“And when you say you own the path of the waves, you’re really saying that you own the materials it travels through, or, if it travels through empty space, simply the wave itself.”

I view it as the EM spectrum itself (in a certain geographic reagin, and with other defining characteristics pertaining to the nature of the use being made of it, namely as an information-carrying medium, thus characterized by a certain center frequency and bandwidth etc.) as a rivalrous resource b/c use of it by one person excludes the use of it by others. If two people attempt to drive a car at the same time, they will both be frustrated. Likewise, if two people broadcast at the same frequency too close too each other, neither will be able to use the spectrum.

Thus, once we identify the specrum as a scarce resource, the qeustion is who gets to control it. This is where the first-use principle kicks in.

Though I admit I’m uncomfortable going too far in this area, from my armchair.

“So, if you transmit radiation through an object, would you say that you then come into ownership of it?”

No, becuase it’s not a use of it. Again, see Rothbard’s relevant technological unit discussion.

” I dare say that merely pointing a walkie-talkie at something seems hardly substantial enough to claim ownership of it.”

Agreed. But to claim airwave ownership one is not claiming the physical objects that are incidentially and trivally affected on some unobservable level; one is claiming that which *is* affected, which is the spectrum one is perturbating.

REPLY

Person December 21, 2007 at 9:41 am

Stephan_Kinsella: You are still grasping for differences between radio wave ownership and IP, but not finding any.

“No. Here is where you go off track. You don’t “use” ideas in this sense. “Use” for the purpose of homesteading means to put some previously unowned *scarce resource* to use so that it is embordered.”

And how are radio waves embordered? And when you homestead a frequency, how did you use all transmitters in the area?

“No, but you *are* using all of a given spectral portion of the airwaves in a given area.”

No, I’m not “using all of it”. OTHER PEOPLE CAN STILL TRANSMIT! They can still set up their own transmitters and make their own waves. The fact that they are picky about information transfer capability should be irrelevant. What if people liked making radio waves for the hell of it? (e.g. as dictated by their religion) Would there then be property rights in the frequencies?

“First, I have no quite decided on this airwave homesteading thing. I think this one needs more work. But your criticisms are non-serious.”

Oh yes, and here we get to the crux of it all. You understand that your position isn’t *quite* all worked out. Yeah, there are some kinks that need straightening out. But only YOU get to dictate what is a valid criticism. And of course, anything that has any hope of revealing fundamental inconsistencies, well — that’s just non-serious.

“The same thing is the case with airwaves. If I am using the airwave then now my use of it is not possible if others broadcast on it. The airwaves are most definitely rivalrous resources.”

Again, the difference is that you can broadcast it. Why are you “not using” a frequency unless you are transmitting information? Why does your desire to transmit *in addition to broadcasting* entitle you to tell others what to do with their transmitters?

It is identical to someone saying “Yeah, I know you and I can both distribute my book … but I’m not really using the book-distributing rights unless i’m the only one doing it.”

“Yeah, I know you can I can both send radio waves along this frequency. But I’m not really using it unless that transmission can contain noise-free information.”

Your refual to serious study the sense in which goods are rivalrous blinds you to the distinctions you’re carelessly blurring over.

REPLY

Stephan Kinsella December 21, 2007 at 10:07 am

Silas: “And how are radio waves embordered? And when you homestead a frequency, how did you use all transmitters in the area?”

Embordering means to establish borders–setting up intersubjectively ascertainable limits–. When use of a given airwave is pervasive enough then others can determine (a) that it is being used, and (b) how to avoid invading those borders. That is all.

If I broadcast I am *not* cliaming a property right in other transmitters. Only in the airwaves. But if I homestead land, say, or own my body, or a car, it means you may not violate the borders of those thigns without my consent. This does not mean I “own” your gun, say–it’s simply the case that my ownership of a thing means simply that you may not employ *any* means to trespass. It does mean I own your means. It means you can’t use your means to commit crime/trespass.

“”No, but you *are* using all of a given spectral portion of the airwaves in a given area.”

No, I’m not “using all of it”. OTHER PEOPLE CAN STILL TRANSMIT! They can still set up their own transmitters and make their own waves.”

Yes, and two people can tug at the wheel of a car at the same time. But neither will be able to use the car for its relevant purpose, which is driving, while this is occurring.

“The fact that they are picky about information transfer capability should be irrelevant.”

No; because there is a praxeological aspect to what property is. It’s not merely physical.

“”First, I have no quite decided on this airwave homesteading thing. I think this one needs more work. But your criticisms are non-serious.”

“Oh yes, and here we get to the crux of it all. You understand that your position isn’t *quite* all worked out.”

My position is worked out just fine. I’m just not sure how a real society would apply the basic principles of homesteading to every conceivable resource. The details don’t interest me overmuch.

But it’s obvious your criticisms are illogical.

“Yeah, there are some kinks that need straightening out. But only YOU get to dictate what is a valid criticism. And of course, anything that has any hope of revealing fundamental inconsistencies, well — that’s just non-serious.”

I’m glad you see things my way now, Silas.

“”The same thing is the case with airwaves. If I am using the airwave then now my use of it is not possible if others broadcast on it. The airwaves are most definitely rivalrous resources.”

“Again, the difference is that you can broadcast it. Why are you “not using” a frequency unless you are transmitting information?”

Read rothbard on the relevant technological unit. This is boring.

“Your refual to serious study the sense in which goods are rivalrous blinds you to the distinctions you’re carelessly blurring over.’”

Said the joker to the thief. There’s too much confusion. I can’t get no relief.

REPLY

Person December 21, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Stephan_Kinsella: Aha! And here we get to the root of our disagreement:

“But neither will be able to use the car for its relevant purpose, which is driving,”

Why is the relevant purpose of an intellectual work not “exclusive publishing”?

Think about it.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 1:30 pm

Me: “Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?”

Stephan: “If it does not prevent their use of their property, then it’s not a conflict, so not a trespass.”

Well, we have a problem here, because your transmission of radio waves certainly makes use of my property. I know because if you are transmitting through my property before I am, then I cannot use my property to transmit through on the same frequency, right?

“In fact, merey by existing, and moving around, you cause various perturbations of the EM field and gravitational field, causing those waves to pass through everyone else’s property, no?”

Some people also make loud noises, stink, step on your toes, cough on you, etc., but those are the little trespasses we put up with to get along. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

“I could see an argument for a property rigth in a path–an easement or right of way; this has implications for shipping lanes and airways (where planes fly).

We must remember property is not purely physical but has a praxeological aspect.”

Hmmm, isn’t an easement or right of way a right to use property? I totally agree that you can have a right to use a path of road, and there can even be argument to use a path of water or air, but I just cannot see how one could argue for a right to use a “path” absent physical presence. If there is no physical aspect, then there is only your imagination. Person is right to note the similarities between non-physical paths, the non-physical spectrum, and IP.

“…the EM spectrum itself…namely as an information-carrying medium…”

But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.

Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it? Compare the situation to two cars competing for a bit of road. The cars are the radio waves, and the road is – not the imaginary “spectrum” – but the receiving antenna.

I’m glad we agree that one cannot claim physical objects in a incidental or trivial manner. Perhaps we may end up agreeing on whether or not one can actually claim ownership of the non-physical. It is my position that if it isn’t physical, then it doesn’t exist except in the imagination. The imagination is composed of physical brain matter, and that brain matter describes to us the physical world around us. When we confuse imagination with reality, it isn’t surprising that we think it justifiable to place claims of ownership of the imaginary.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 1:49 pm

Person,

I now see why you bring the fight for IP back to radio, for it is Kinsella’s weak spot. (No offence.)

I hope that you are not actually arguing for IP out of some desire to win, but are actually eager for logic and reason to prevail.

I do not side with Kinsella for spectrum rights, because like IP it is purely a non-physical description of the physical. In other words, just as Kinsella criticizes IP for claiming ownership on property already owned, spectrum “rights” do the same (as I noted in my last post to him).

Neither “spectrum rights” nor “IP rights” hold up to the test of physical reality. If we agree that it is illogical to be able to own that which does not exist, then that is where they and all other imagined rights fail.

REPLY

Stephan Kinsella December 21, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Kevin,

this is not my “weak spot” since I don’t have definitive views on it. I think this area is underdeveloped. These are simply my evolving thoughts on all this.

“Me: “Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?”

“Stephan: “If it does not prevent their use of their property, then it’s not a conflict, so not a trespass.”

“Well, we have a problem here, because your transmission of radio waves certainly makes use of my property. I know because if you are transmitting through my property before I am, then I cannot use my property to transmit through on the same frequency, right?”

I think you are confusing your means with your property. What does transmitting “through” your property have to do with anything? Imagine an EM spectrum that bathed the whole area, except your tract of land (some weird Gaussian box shielded it). Now my EM waves are not going “through” your property at all. BUt you are still unable to use a transmitter (whosever it is; wherever it’s located) to perturb the EM spectrum in the areas where it does exist.

Are you saying that to transmit a radio signal, over a 10 square mile area, I need to get permission of every single tract owner in that area? Then you have a view similar to Walter Block re roads.

“”In fact, merey by existing, and moving around, you cause various perturbations of the EM field and gravitational field, causing those waves to pass through everyone else’s property, no?”

“Some people also make loud noises, stink, step on your toes, cough on you, etc., but those are the little trespasses we put up with to get along. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.””

But they are not trespasses, really.

“”I could see an argument for a property rigth in a path–an easement or right of way; this has implications for shipping lanes and airways (where planes fly).

“We must remember property is not purely physical but has a praxeological aspect.”

“Hmmm, isn’t an easement or right of way a right to use property? I totally agree that you can have a right to use a path of road, and there can even be argument to use a path of water or air, but I just cannot see how one could argue for a right to use a “path” absent physical presence.”

Oh, I see. Well, it seem to me that you use a resource according to its, and the given use’s, nature. You use a field by farming it. A path by walking on it. An EM spectrum by broadcasting over it. Etc.

“If there is no physical aspect, then there is only your imagination. Person is right to note the similarities between non-physical paths, the non-physical spectrum, and IP.”

There is a physical aspect–EM signals are real. Shoot someone in the eye with a laser beam, you’ll see what I mean.

“”…the EM spectrum itself…namely as an information-carrying medium…”

But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.”

Well, then you can think of it as right to use a given volume of space for a particular limited purpose. To me, this is just a detail. We are beign armchair philosophers a bit too much–going beyond what we can guess the market would decide.

“Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it?”

The owner’s, but he cannot use it to bash you over the head, nor to violate your airwaves.

“I’m glad we agree that one cannot claim physical objects in a incidental or trivial manner. Perhaps we may end up agreeing on whether or not one can actually claim ownership of the non-physical. It is my position that if it isn’t physical, then it doesn’t exist except in the imagination.”

But EM waves are not non-physical. If they were, you could have two people broadcast at the same time with no interference.
“I do not side with Kinsella for spectrum rights, because like IP it is purely a non-physical description of the physical.”

I am open on the airwave issue. I am not so sure about it as I am about IP or normal property.

REPLY

Person December 21, 2007 at 2:03 pm

“I hope that you are not actually arguing for IP out of some desire to win, but are actually eager for logic and reason to prevail.”

Thank you, Kevin_B. This is exactly why I post: because I find the arguments against IP (and many that are for!) to be unsatisfying, and I post to reveal the inconsistencies. I think we understand each other at this point.

You came to the same conclusion as I did: that IP and spectrum rights sink or swim together.

REPLY

Joseph Huang December 21, 2007 at 2:07 pm

if you believe in physical property, you cannot believe in patents, or copyrites.

patents tell other people what to do with their own physical property. you do not own “your” computer if you cannot do whatever you wish with it, and copying a string of bits does not count as aggression, in and of itself.

you do not own “your” printer if you cannot print whatever you wish, and printing a copy of something does not count as aggression, in and of itself.

REPLY

Joseph Huang December 21, 2007 at 2:12 pm

while in the past, “ownership” of airwaves was perhaps necessary due to primitive technology, now it is certainly not the case with advanced transmission techniques which allow simultaneous transmission while making other transmissions appear as background noise. the success of the 2.4ghz frequencies is a case in point.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 2:29 pm

Stephan Kinsella: “Imagine an EM spectrum that bathed the whole area, except your tract of land (some weird Gaussian box shielded it). Now my EM waves are not going “through” your property at all. BUt you are still unable to use a transmitter (whosever it is; wherever it’s located) to perturb the EM spectrum in the areas where it does exist.”

Exactly! I cannot, nor should I be able to, transmit radiation through property that I do not own. I have no right.

“Are you saying that to transmit a radio signal, over a 10 square mile area, I need to get permission of every single tract owner in that area? Then you have a view similar to Walter Block re roads.”

Why should an owner of a path of road or a path of wire have the right to determine who has the may use it, but the owner of a path of radio antenna not?

“Well, it seem to me that you use a resource according to its, and the given use’s, nature. You use a field by farming it. A path by walking on it. An EM spectrum by broadcasting over it. Etc.”

Well, you said that you don’t have definitive views on the subject, and here I point to easy improvement. Yes, you use a field by farming it. Yes, you use a path (of grass, dirt, gravel, cement, etc.) by walking on it. But the EM spectrum…you cannot broadcast over it. It isn’t there – not like the field is there. Let me explain:

A great many things may be farmed on a field, right? Corn, apples, oranges, wheat, etc. Well, think of those possible farmable products as the range of farming, or the farming spectrum. Just as the EM spectrum refers to *possible* EM radiation, so does the farming spectrum refer to *possible* crops to grow. Neither spectrum actually exists as anything more than our imagination. To claim ownership on either spectrum is a conflicting claim with actual physical property, apples, the field, EM radiation, or the antenna. See?

REPLY

Joseph Huang December 21, 2007 at 2:38 pm

radiation in low doses has been proven to be harmful. if you want to stop transmissions anyways, that is your responsibility. it is not other people’s responsibility to make sure you come under no possibility whatsoever of harm. you have no right to stop other people from transmitting using their own property, unless you can prove that those transmissions are causing you harm.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 2:40 pm

Person: “IP and spectrum rights sink or swim together.”

Agreed, and as you know I think they both sink.

“This is exactly why I post: because I find the arguments against IP (and many that are for!) to be unsatisfying, and I post to reveal the inconsistencies.”

Well, you haven’t posted a counter-argument to my position that only the physical can be owned, other than radio waves. But now that you understand my position regarding the spectrum and radio waves, what have you to say?

Do you find my position, that everything which exists is physical, that the non-physical is mere description of the physical, that therefore only the physical can be rightfully owned, to be unsatisfying?

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 2:45 pm

Joseph Huang: “you have no right to stop other people from transmitting using their own property, unless you can prove that those transmissions are causing you harm.”

Technically, it is easy to prove that transmissions are causing you harm. Just turn on your radio.

“it is not other people’s responsibility to make sure you come under no possibility whatsoever of harm.”

Sure, it is not their responsibility to make sure you are not harmed from any source, except if it is by them.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Stephan,

When I said, “I cannot, nor should I be able to, transmit radiation through property that I do not own. I have no right,” I mean that I have no right to transmit through property that others own. You probably understood what I meant, but I just want to be clear.

REPLY

Person December 21, 2007 at 2:50 pm

Kevin_B: “But now that you understand my position regarding the spectrum and radio waves, what have you to say? Do you find my position, that everything which exists is physical, that the non-physical is mere description of the physical, that therefore only the physical can be rightfully owned, to be unsatisfying?”

Well, to be honest, I didn’t read everything in your exchange with Stephan_Kinsella, but as I understand it, I do think it’s unsatisfying. People conflict over many things which cannot be expressed as full ownership of a physical object. To specify a framework for resolving ALL disputes, you have to allow for ownership of bundles of rights. Those rights necessarily deal with intangibles: for example, stock ownership, lease agreements, etc.

So, I prefer to think in terms of buying “bundles of rights”. For example, when you rent an apartment, you are buying “temporary usage rights.”

Decisions to assign rights to the “full purpose” of an object seem arbitrary by necessity.

One last thing: about IP/spectrum parity: doesn’t the fact that your position if implemented would mean no useful use of the radio spectrum, suggest to you that you made a mistake somewhere? Because not being able to use radio waves would suck.

REPLY

Joseph Huang December 21, 2007 at 3:04 pm

static on the radio does not meet my standard of harm, at least. i meant harm in the harm as in causing cancer sense, perhaps i wasn’t clear about that. if you choose to use a transmission method so vulnerable to interference, you should expect that sometimes the transmissions will be blocked. you should have chosen a better method, and it is not other people’s fault for you not choosing such a method.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 3:08 pm

Person: “…I didn’t read everything in your exchange with Stephan_Kinsella…”

Please do. It wasn’t too lengthy, and it seems that you have enough time on your hands today. ;)

“…doesn’t the fact that your position if implemented would mean no useful use of the radio spectrum, suggest to you that you made a mistake somewhere? Because not being able to use radio waves would suck.”

Not being able to bug out the the funky beats on the radio would indeed suck. However, just as the argument for anarchy of government doesn’t necessarily mean there will be chaos, so would my position not preclude the possibility of contractually meeting the demand for great tunes.

I am not saying that there shouldn’t be radio waves or police. But I think those services should both be offered rather than forced.

“Those rights necessarily deal with intangibles: for example, stock ownership, lease agreements, etc.”

Those intangibles are mere descriptions of tangibles. Any conflict over an intangible (or non-physical) is actually conflict over the tangible.

‘So, I prefer to think in terms of buying “bundles of rights”. For example, when you rent an apartment, you are buying “temporary usage rights.”‘

Apartments are physical. I do not see any conflict with my position.

I figured that you wouldn’t find my position satisfying, but wouldn’t quite have an argument against it. Please try.

REPLY

Kevin B December 21, 2007 at 3:12 pm

Joseph Huang,

I wasn’t speaking of static as being proof of harm, but the groovy tunes that you hear. (Unless you agree to the transmissions, of course.)

REPLY

Joseph Huang December 21, 2007 at 6:24 pm

the reason why you are able to rent an apartment is because there is a rightful owner of the apartment.

since the state is not the rightful decider of what is and isn’t property, and who the property belongs to, a better analogy would be a mafia coming into your town and deciding to extract rent from all the residents. and giving it to whoever they pleased.

REPLY

Joseph Huang December 21, 2007 at 6:30 pm

that’s not harm. to harm is to do something that has a negative impact. i am not harmed just because i’m standing next to someone talking on a cell phone. i am not harmed if there is a ronja link across the air above my property. a ronja link uses infrared or red light to transmit information.

REPLY

greg December 21, 2007 at 7:23 pm

As a radio engineer, I sorta hope that posters in this thread who talking about the EM spectrum and its uses will refrain from asserting as much as they do.


Kevin B at December 20, 2007 4:43 PM

The frequency is a description of the physical characteristics, but apart from the wave, there is no frequency.

“120 kHz” itself is non-physical, nothing but mere description. You cannot own description.

The “frequency” is a relevent portion of the description of some real physical phenomena. To make that work, you would have to say that “a house” is non-physical, and that it is mere description. The point is that nothing you say there about the descriptive method distinguishes “a house” as a prospect for property from EM spectrum as a prospect for property.


Stephan Kinsella at December 20, 2007 5:27 PM

No one produces a frequency, any more than they produce a weight when they make a marble statue having a weight. The produce EM signals at a given frequency; they use a given portion of the EM spectrum characterized by its location and wavelength and bandwidth.

Hmmm… I don’t think that is so keen of an analogy, or it is quite imprecise, at best. If you are talking about conservation of mass (when talking about “weight”) then you should in simile be saying that no one produces energy any more than they produce mass. While true, that would miss the point here: energy is being transformed from one form into a very specific form. One descriptive characteristic of the final transformation is of frequency spectral density. And as you know, mass can be transformed too (by mixing labor/energy). The frequency, or energy in a frequency band, is certainly “produced.”


Stephan Kinsella at December 20, 2007 7:04 PM

Arguably, when you use an unowned airwave by broadcasting EM signals through it, you homestead it.
…
You lost me. That is in fact the idea behind homesteading of airwaves. Have you read David Kelley & Roger Donway, Laissez Parler? on this?

On the first sentence, I’d strongly agree that it is certainly arguable.

You’ve mentioned Kelley & Donway & Laissez Parler before, and one time provided a link. However, I saw nothing relevent at that link. Do you have any particular paper, text, or link you can share?


Silas Barta at December 20, 2007 8:01 PM

Say it with me: others can broadcast at your same frequency, BUT YOU DON’T LIKE THAT. See? It’s easy! You recognize that others can broadcast, but you, the broadcast on the same frequency, DON’T LIKE what results. That’s really the ONLY sense in which it’s scarce.

Sure, it is scarce because various users can jam each other. It’s physical. It is scarce. You said “only,” so how many varieties of scarce in real physical things are required to say “scarce is scarce?” {laughs}


Stephan Kinsella at December 21, 2007 7:42 AM

I view it as the EM spectrum itself … as a rivalrous resource b/c use of it by one person excludes the use of it by others. If two people attempt to drive a car at the same time, they will both be frustrated. Likewise, if two people broadcast at the same frequency too close too each other, neither will be able to use the spectrum.

“[U]se of it by one person excludes the use of it by others” is really a technological oversimplification. It isn’t generally true, although it can be true in particular cases. I really have some skepticism in taking a specific situtation and then forming a general rule of conduct from it.


Person at December 21, 2007 9:41 AM

No, I’m not “using all of it”. OTHER PEOPLE CAN STILL TRANSMIT! They can still set up their own transmitters and make their own waves. The fact that they are picky about information transfer capability should be irrelevant. What if people liked making radio waves for the hell of it? (e.g. as dictated by their religion) Would there then be property rights in the frequencies?

Frankly, the whole tone of that is bizarre. Of course “use,” whether “religious” or for “information transfer capability,” is completely relevent. People use a resource because they believe it does something they find satisfying. The end is always relevent. And for the communications folks, “information” is the only thing they care about, and EM wave is part of the real physical means.

The transmitter is only part of the link. The path(s) and the receiver(s) are other parts. You always pick this one part of the system (the transmitter) to talk about. Why I don’t know and I’m pretty sure at this point that you don’t either.


Stephan Kinsella at December 21, 2007 10:07 AM

Embordering means to establish borders–setting up intersubjectively ascertainable limits–. When use of a given airwave is pervasive enough then others can determine (a) that it is being used, and (b) how to avoid invading those borders. That is all.


Stephan Kinsella at December 21, 2007 10:07 AM

My position is worked out just fine. I’m just not sure how a real society would apply the basic principles of homesteading to every conceivable resource. The details don’t interest me overmuch.

I agree with the embordering idea, as a method to establish property rights. It seems to be exactly what happens. However, applying this to EM seems to have a rather fundamental problem: it is extraordinarily hard to describe a sustainable border to EM and keep the border stable. Its basic nature makes that a sketchy proposition. (There are some other problems too.)

The reason embordering has worked so well for large classes of physical objects is that the objects, by their very nature of stable physical mass (real or personal), allow people to agree on the borders for a low transaction cost. I’m not saying this could not be done for EM spectrum, but the fact that it isn’t done, and I have not seen one good analysis or application of it, leads me to think the costs are “too high” in part because producing good descriptions of embordering have a high measure of difficulty. People, like electrons, seek the lowest energy state, and in the EM case, force is perceived (“felt”) as costing less than peaceful agreements on borders, whatever the moral pronouncements or long-thinking logic on that may be.

There seems to be a bad habit among many libertarians, when there is a conflict-of-interest and resources, to simply say “just apply the principles of property rights!” and then the argument is over. I don’t think so. I think there is a strong cause for, and benefit to, applying property rights to as much as possible. After all, when property rights are functioning, there is really nothing better to the end goal of a peaceful and prosperous population. The crux of what I’m trying to get across is that I think in the particular case of EM spectrum, it is decidedly difficult to apply property principles due to the nature of the physical thing. I think this is why it has not been done. It is worth thinking about and developing a good way to apply the property principles. To my knowledge, this has not been done.

For my part, I have a certain faith that users can develop and evolve customs of use on their own, without any grand efforts from a state or outside-looking-in intellectuals. In fact, I’ve seen some of that happen in the unlicensed bands. To the extent workable customs can be developed, and when boundary cases are applied to free courts and arbitrators, a body of customary law could be developed organically. That was not allowed to happen in the USA.


Kevin B at December 21, 2007 1:30 PM

But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.

This is that same old “what is a description of something real?” Particular EM energy (or photons/particles/mass, if you wanna go all duality on us) is as physically real as some particular house is real. Both are symbols (abstractions) of real things in the sense that it is language. You can point an antenna to space and pick up CMB from the big bang if you want to. It’s there — all the time. But your problem with making language the problem, is that doing so paralyzes talking about pretty much anything. Language is always an abstraction, a model, a way of communicating about something — language is never the thing itself. So your beef includes nothing that distinguishes itself because it applies to any use of language.


Kevin B at December 21, 2007 1:30 PM

Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it?

Again, this (“cannot”) is a strict technological mistake. Signals certainly can be multiplexed onto the same frequency band and directed to a singular receiver. The “same radio” is the receiver. The owner of the receiver(s) may or may not be the same person/entity as the owner(s) of the transmitters. I can’t see the relevence.


Kevin B at December 21, 2007 1:49 PM

I now see why you bring the fight for IP back to radio, for it is Kinsella’s weak spot. (No offence.)

It is more of a red herring that should nonetheless be addressed rather than a weak spot. It is a false analogy.


Person at December 21, 2007 2:03 PM

You came to the same conclusion as I did: that IP and spectrum rights sink or swim together.

No. IP fails because ideas are not physical. EM ownership might fail as far as cost effectively pushing EM-ownership into a property rights paradigm. EM is a real physical thing — but the basic trouble is that its essential physical attributes do not lend it easily to the property rights paradigm. You confate the failures, thinking the mechanism is the same. It is just not so. They might both sink, but they wouldn’t be doing it together.

REPLY

Kevin B December 22, 2007 at 5:43 pm

Well greg,

As a former nuclear power plant operator, allow me to help you understand what I meant:

For the sake of everyone else, let us keep things simplified.

Freuquency
“the number of cycles or completed alternations per unit time of a wave or oscillation

Now greg, when you say ‘The “frequency” is a relevent portion of the description of some real physical phenomena’ you are correct. In fact the wave IS a real physical phenomena. That is my point. The frequency is a description of the number of cycles (blah blah) of the wave. The WAVE is physical..it is real. That was my point. But there is no “frequency” in the same way there is no “EM spectrum.” Is that better?

Me: “But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.”

greg: ‘This is that same old “what is a description of something real?”‘

No, it should be fairly obvious that the “EM spectrum,” as an physical object in itself, is NOT there. Did you read my “farming spectrum” analogy? Can you own a piece of the farming spectrum? I know you’re right when you say that “ideas are not physical,” but I could nit-pick too and say that you’re asserting too much, since ideas DO exist – physically. They’re in our heads now, aren’t they? But what you MEAN is something completely different, now, isn’t it? You mean there is no “idea” apart from the cells in our heads. I’m saying there is no “frequency” apart from the EM energy. I hope that’s clearer.

Me: “Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it?”

greg: ‘Again, this (“cannot”) is a strict technological mistake. Signals certainly can be multiplexed onto the same frequency band and directed to a singular receiver. The “same radio” is the receiver. The owner of the receiver(s) may or may not be the same person/entity as the owner(s) of the transmitters. I can’t see the relevence.’

Again, you are not even trying. What receiver are you talking about? Not the average home stereo trying to receive a signal fromthe local radio station, brother. Work with us here.

Me: “I now see why you bring the fight for IP back to radio…”

greg: “It is a false analogy.”

Really? And just how, pray tell, does the “EM spectrum” (by my and Kinsella’s usage of the term) physically exist?

And finally:

greg: “IP fails because ideas are not physical. EM ownership might fail as far as cost effectively pushing EM-ownership into a property rights paradigm. EM is a real physical thing…”

Come on. I never said that EM radiation isn’t real. I said the EM spectrum is a description of the possible range of frequencies of electromagnetic energy – and that range cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL EM radiation) be owned, unless you can see 120 kHz nothings flying around.

Person is saying that just as Kinsella is arguing for the ownership of a piece of the range of possible frequencies within a given geographical area, so can he argue for the ownership of a piece of the range of possible ideas within a geographical area. Correct me if I’m wrong, Person.

REPLY

greg December 27, 2007 at 7:59 pm

Kevin:
That was my point. But there is no “frequency” in the same way there is no “EM spectrum.” Is that better?

No, I still view it as only a undistinguished complaint regarding the application of basic language (to the purpose of describing physical phenomena).

Kevin:
[I]t should be fairly obvious that the “EM spectrum,” as an physical object in itself, is NOT there.

No, a “house,” is a mere archetype for particular instantiations of “house,” just as “EM spectrum” is a mere archetype for particular instantiations of “EM spectrum.” We say we can own “a house,” because we know there a particular instantiations of “house.” We also know full well there are particular instantiations of “EM spectrum.” We simply have more descriptive difficulties with the practical aspects of “EM spectrum” than “house,” thus the transaction costs are way too high. So it is a practical descriptive problem that limits our ability to easily say (agree that) “joe owns instantiation X of ‘EM spectrum.’”

Kevin:
I’m saying there is no “frequency” apart from the EM energy. I hope that’s clearer.

No, it is the same non-distinguishing complaint about basic language as ever. I could likewise say: “I’m saying there is no ‘house’ apart from boards, bricks, plaster, and paint.”

Kevin:
What receiver are you talking about? Not the average home stereo trying to receive a signal from the local radio station, brother. Work with us here.

That is a great example. A “home stereo,” while old technology, is explicitly an example of a multiplexed system. There is no reason — other than regulatory and historical — why a “stereo receiver” cannot use the L and R “channels” to output completely separate and uncorrelated messages. SCA and paging are also often multiplexed onto a (FM) carrier for a receiver to decode. Modern radio systems can have more than one input and more than one output (MIMO). In the most generalized case, there does not have to be correlation between the inputs, and consequently in the outputs. That the inputs and outputs most often are correlated is a basic fact of what people desire in a system, not what is technologically possible.

Kevin:
And just how, pray tell, does the “EM spectrum” (by my and Kinsella’s usage of the term) physically exist?

I could likewise say: “And just how, pray tell, does a ‘house’ [an archetype] … physically exist?”

Kevin:
I said the EM spectrum is a description of the possible range of frequencies of electromagnetic energy – and that range cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL EM radiation) be owned, unless you can see 120 kHz nothings flying around.

I could likewise say: “I said a house is a description of the possible arrangement of boards, bricks, plaster, and paint — and that description cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL boards, bricks, plaster, and paint) be owned, unless you can see house nothings flying around.”

There is nothing in your argument that is distinguishing when it comes describing to physical phenomena, whether EM particles|energy or houses.

Maybe your problem is that a photon has zero rest mass. (A photon doesn’t exist at zero velocity.) But if a system emits a photon, then it’s resulting mass is correspondingly lower. And the converse is a system that absorbs a photon — then the mass in that case is increased by the absorbtion. A photon has the wave-particle duality, like everything else. For some reason, you have a problem with a particle that seems to have zero rest mass. The reason EM is difficult from a property rights perspective is because of its “free” (photon) nature, not because “it does not exist” but “a house does exist.” It is simply easier for humans to draw (and agree on) a boundary around a particle (a house for example) with a velocity far lower than the speed of light than to draw a boundary around particles that are traveling at the speed of light.

And maybe you have a problem with the idea that photon particles can be created or not created (or “destroyed”) on time scales far smaller than a house can be created, and then knocked down, or a forest converted to pasture and then grown back into a forest. Who knows? It is the boundary descriptive problems of EM that make it unwieldy and not well lent to property rights, as we currently understand them. It is not that “EM Spectrum” is some weird non-physical archetype fiction unlike the “house” archetype. “House,” as an archetype, is also a non-physical fiction — it is a “product” of human capability for abstraction and symbolic thought.

Is the energy that PG&E (my supplier of electric energy) sends down the transmission line (to my house) PG&E’s property, or can I just take it without paying because it is simply energy (rather than mass), and not an “object” and thus not “property?”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie_hypothesis

REPLY

Kevin B December 27, 2007 at 9:04 pm

greg,

Thank you. Let us dissolve our misunderstanding of each other.

“I said a house is a description of the possible arrangement of boards, bricks, plaster, and paint — and that description cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL boards, bricks, plaster, and paint) be owned, unless you can see house nothings flying around.”

That is a fine description of a house. Now, what is a fine description of the EM spectrum? Until now, I thought you saw it the same as I, as the range of *possible* frequencies of EM radiation within a given area, but I was wrong. As I understand you, you define the EM spectrum as EM radiation and the medium it passes through. I am correct, aren’t I? After all, my house certainly isn’t hypothetical. So for you to compare my house to part of the EM spectrum, you must be referring to the actual and not the hypothetical.

So, if you are indeed suggesting that EM radiation exists, then I agree. If you are also saying that a physical medium exists, then I agree. If you say there is really no more to it than what is physically there, then I agree.

Here is my difficulty:

– EM radiation is owned by the transmitter.
– The medium is owned by the owner of the medium.

By my understanding of property rights, spectrum rights could not include the right to transmit EM radiation through a medium owned by another, since that would conflict with their property right to the medium. So what exactly do you mean by spectrum rights?

REPLY

Kevin B December 27, 2007 at 10:02 pm

greg,

Having discussed this with another, I believe that by spectrum right you are referring to an easement through the medium. That makes sense.

As long as it was agreed to beforehand, I say fine. An EM spectrum right sounds like a passage right with or without permission of the medium owner, though.

*****

Comments (76)

  • Michael Spellman
  • Well, it’s unfortunate that the company is doing that, but it seems that some people will figure out they can just not go to Staples anymore =). And if Staples thinks that it is good business to take 100 mil and stop selling other cartridges… it’s a business transaction, rite? but w/e =)
  • Published: December 18, 2007 11:31 PM

  • Wiggly
  • Yes, you’re a hypocrite.

    I thought you didn’t like anti-trust laws?

  • Published: December 19, 2007 1:52 AM

  • Ty
  • I don’t see where the government fits into this case. And I’m not sure I know of a government law that prevents you from using third party ink. Or buying printers that use less expensive ink.
  • Published: December 19, 2007 2:39 AM

  • kurt
  • Ty:
    http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2007/070306a.html
  • Published: December 19, 2007 10:38 AM

  • Ty
  • I stand corrected. Whenever a private company gets help from the government it usually means that everyone else loses.
  • Published: December 19, 2007 11:17 AM

  • Person
  • “These companies clearly actively pursue, support, and employ government monopolies ”

    Government monopolies, government monopolies … OH, you mean like property rights!

    Oh, no, those aren’t REALLY government monopolies, because people would totally support them even without a government, and uh, I like them, so uh uh uh, even if someone is getting an EXCLUSVE legal right to use something, that isn’t REALLY a monopoly.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 11:41 AM

  • JC Hewitt
  • CompUSA failed because marked up computers and accessories far above prices at online vendors like Newegg. Taking advantage of consumer ignorance is not a good long term strategy.
  • Published: December 19, 2007 11:58 AM

  • Kevin B
  • Person,

    You just reminded me of a Gary Larson comic where a fisherman loses his mind out on the water and is yelling, “Fish or cut bait! Fish or cut bait! Fish or cut bait!…”

    Sorry, I couldn’t find it online. 🙁

  • Published: December 19, 2007 12:19 PM

  • Mrhuh
  • “Government monopolies, government monopolies … OH, you mean like property rights!

    Oh, no, those aren’t REALLY government monopolies, because people would totally support them even without a government, and uh, I like them, so uh uh uh, even if someone is getting an EXCLUSVE legal right to use something, that isn’t REALLY a monopoly.”

    You’re right it’s not. People have always had some form of territoriality about them. Just look at animals, or do you not believe in the Theory of Evolution. People might not support Property Rights for others, but they’ve always desired property rights for themselves (just look at Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn for example). Or look at the Native Americans who we’re claiming their right to their property from the encroachments of the white man’s government.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 1:38 PM

  • Person
  • Oh, okay, so because people have always supported it, that makes it “not a monopoly” even though they’re claiming an exlusive legal right to something, gotcha, makes PERFECT sense.
  • Published: December 19, 2007 1:47 PM

  • Michael A. Clem
  • I’ve never been fond of inkjet printers–I went from dot matrix straight to laser printers.
  • Published: December 19, 2007 1:57 PM

  • Allan
  • Where Person obviously goes wrong is with his assertion that property rights are “legal” rights. Some may consider them so, and in these cases Person is right. But I think the view more grounded in reality is that property rights are natural rights, that exist prior to any legal concept. If there happened not to be any government, and I showed up on unclaimed land and planted corn, and then someone else showed up to take my corn, I’d be perfectly justified in stopping this ‘person.’ I don’t need the law in order for me to own something. The law works best when it reflects this reality, but the law is subsequent to reality. It does not create reality, as ‘person’ seems to think so.
  • Published: December 19, 2007 2:34 PM

  • Person
  • Allan: There can be property rights in a legal sense (the law will protect you if the right is violated) and property rights in a moral sense (it is morally wrong to violate that right). Regardless of your opinion on the moral right aspect, in this story, Stephan_Kinsella referred to it as a legal right. He was referring to how certain companies acquire for themselves government-granted monopoly privileges.

    I was pointing out how physical property rights are also, in the same sense, a government-granted monopoly. It may indeed be the case that people would continue to respect property rights in the absense of this grant (just as people may still respect intellectual property rights). It may indeed be the case that enforcing your property rights is still morally justified in the absense of this grant (just as it may still be morally justified to enforce IP rights). By property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege — just a monopoly privilege most of us here support.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 3:10 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Silas (Person):

    I was pointing out how physical property rights are also, in the same sense, a government-granted monopoly. It may indeed be the case that people would continue to respect property rights in the absense of this grant (just as people may still respect intellectual property rights). It may indeed be the case that enforcing your property rights is still morally justified in the absense of this grant (just as it may still be morally justified to enforce IP rights). By property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege — just a monopoly privilege most of us here support.

    No, Silas. All rights are property rights. And a right is simply a justified claim to control a certain resource. In a free society, property rights are respected by the prevailing ethos and by the private justice and legal system, and in practice. And in a statist world, where the state monopolizes the justice function, it might “recognize” some rights with the force of state positive law.

    But that does not mean that “property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege”, nor that it’s a “privilege” that “most of us here support”.

     

  • Published: December 19, 2007 3:32 PM

  • Person
  • Stephan_Kinsella: The fact that “a right is simply a justified claim to control a certain resource. In a free society, property rights are respected by the prevailing ethos and by the private justice and legal system, and in practice.”

    does not contradict “property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege”. Regardless of the justification that property rights have, the government does grant *legal rights* to them. It is a privilege (one person’s rights wrt a good are *privileged* over others). And most of us do indeed support the existence of that privilege — i.e. that one person’s claim to his property be prioritized over others.

    The upshot is: Calling patents “government-granted monopoly privilege that corporations exploit” is misleading. You can say the same for regular property rights. It does not, in any sesne, take away from the justifiability of either.

    The truth of this conclusion is robust against transformations of the meanings of “privilege”.

    Think about it.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 4:38 PM

  • Allan
  • Physical property rights exist prior to law and therefore transcend law. Law can be judged as good or bad in the sense of whether it properly takes account of this pre-existing state of affairs.

    Patents are purely a government contrivance. If there happened not to be any government, and I invented a printer, and someone else showed up and, using their astute ability to reverse engineer, produced a printer that for all intents and purposes functioned in the same way my printer did, but they created this printer using their own property, I would have no right to prevent the creation of this printer. I would not be justified in taking this printer in exactly the same way that this other person would not be justified in taking my corn.

    So, physical property rights may be a governmental ly ensured monopoly and this is the same situation we find our selves in with regard to patents, but in absence of said government, property rights continue to exist, while patent rights do not. Thus, your statement “Government monopolies, government monopolies … OH, you mean like property rights!” is a rhetorical sleight of hand. Again, property rights exist PRIOR to government monopolies. The fact the government recognizes this pre-existing order does not make property rights creations of the state – unlike in the case of patents. Again, property rights pre-exist the state and thus are not primarily government monopolies, whereas patents indeed are. Person is trying to obscure this subtlety.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 4:38 PM

  • Person
  • Allan: So, to clarify, your response is:

    Baseless assertion, baseless assertion, baseless assertion, baseless assertion, baseless assertion, baseless assertion, baseless assertion.

    Guess we’re at an impasse.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 5:14 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Silas: “Stephan_Kinsella: The fact that “a right is simply a justified claim to control a certain resource. In a free society, property rights are respected by the prevailing ethos and by the private justice and legal system, and in practice.”

    “does not contradict “property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege”.”

    I disagree–it depends on how you mean “property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege”.

    If you are referring to moral or natural rights, then these precede the state, exist independently of it. So it’s misleading to say they “are” government privileges. Privilege, also, is a loaded term. You sneaky little … Person.

    the thing is, IP is ONLY a government privilege; it has no existence without it. It’s purely a creature of statute.

    Gotcha. Say uncle.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 5:33 PM

  • Person
  • Stephan_Kinsella: “I disagree–it depends on how you mean ‘property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege’. If you are referring to moral or natural rights, then these precede the state, exist independently of it.”

    I was using it originally in the precise sense that you were: as a legal right. In which case I’m correct.

    “So it’s misleading to say they “are” government privileges.”

    But they are — it’s just that they are more than that as well. You know — just like one could say of patents if he didn’t already agree with you.

    “Privilege, also, is a loaded term. You sneaky little … Person.”

    Hey — great point! And that’s exactly why it perplexes me that you would use such a term in your original post.

    “the thing is, IP is ONLY a government privilege; it has no existence without it. It’s purely a creature of statute.”

    Really? There was no systematic recognition of any kind of (what we would recognize as) intellectual property rights before there was a law enforcing it? (Not even clan “trademarks”?) Then what led to the push to codify it in law?

  • Published: December 19, 2007 5:47 PM

  • Allan
  • If there were no government, or if we somehow found ourselves outside the realm of government jurisdiction, would I be justified in killing you (assuming nothing else has taken place between us other than our current conversation)?

    If you answer ‘no,’ then you have made my point for me, all my previous statements, far from being baseless, are indeed accurate – you have a right to your life prior to the legal recognition of said right.

    If you answer ‘yes,’ then we are really at an impasse and my statements are truly baseless from your point of view.

    You decide.

  • Published: December 19, 2007 5:49 PM

  • Inquisitor
  • Utter nonsense. Governments enforce certain rights, they do not ‘grant’ anything but legal fictions. Property rights have a justification outside of mere legal fiction. Kinsella argues that IP does not. One must be an utter legal positivist to think the government creates any genuine rights. It does nothing but enforce them. If IP has a justification independent of legal grants by government, then it can be said to be justified. Until then it is an invalid government monopoly grant. What is your justification, Person, for property rights, if any?
  • Published: December 19, 2007 6:02 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Silas “Person” Barta:

    Stephan_Kinsella: “I disagree–it depends on how you mean ‘property rights are, unambiguously, a government-granted monopoly privilege’. If you are referring to moral or natural rights, then these precede the state, exist independently of it.”

     

    I was using it originally in the precise sense that you were: as a legal right. In which case I’m correct.

     

    If you want to say the legal institutions that protect property rights in physical objects, and also intellecutal property rights, are state laws, sure. But that’s a trivial observation. The question is which are justified. Clearly we all agree property rights in real things are justified. They exist despite state recognition, or regardless of.

    Anything that can exist only with state decree is unjust b/c the state is unjust. QED.

    See?

    “Privilege, also, is a loaded term. You sneaky little … Person.”Hey — great point! And that’s exactly why it perplexes me that you would use such a term in your original post.

     

    But IP is a privilege. Duh. It would not exist but for the state granting it. Even Jefferson recognized this. They were not viewed as natural rights; but temporary, artificial monopolies granted by the state for the purpose of encouraging innovation. Duh.

    “the thing is, IP is ONLY a government privilege; it has no existence without it. It’s purely a creature of statute.”Really? There was no systematic recognition of any kind of (what we would recognize as) intellectual property rights before there was a law enforcing it? (Not even clan “trademarks”?) Then what led to the push to codify it in law?

    No, no patent right can arise in a free market. It’s just a grant of government monopoly. Why the push? It was not “codified.” This is an ignorant view, or disingenuous and dishonest. Codification implies codifying legal principles previously developed by a court system–in principle, those that could arise in a stateless society. Patent law was just legislated, like the ADA or the tax laws.

     

  • Published: December 19, 2007 6:05 PM

  • TLWP Sam
  • Interestingly I remember reading of traditionalist Australian Aborigine who claimed that he had a exclusive right to paint certain designs and in ye olde times any one who paint these designs without permission he would have the right to kill the other person . . .
  • Published: December 19, 2007 9:09 PM

  • Person
  • Okay, so, to sum up, y’all don’t believe it’s possible for people to have social conventions favoring IP in the absence of the state, “because you say so”, so it’s wrong for corporations to seek state IP protection, while it’s okay for corporations to seek state property protection. Does that about sum it up?
  • Published: December 20, 2007 8:38 AM

  • Allan
  • People can have “social conventions” about IP “rights” but these social conventions are contingent upon voluntary bilateral agreements, (this is due to the primacy of physical property rights) between each and every individual – they do not automatically apply universally, before the existance of a state (which can by force attempt to apply them universally), in the way that physical property rights do.

    You are constantly changing the wording of your argument so as to draw out a debate that was ended with my previous question to you. Answer the question.

    Answer the question.

    Answer the question.

    No really, answer it. If you do not, any further argument you make is seriously undermined, as you have not overcome my primary objection to your overall point. I think any third party reading this can see that for themselves.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 9:33 AM

  • Person
  • People can have “social conventions” about property “rights” but these social conventions are contingent upon voluntary bilateral agreements, (this is due to the primacy of physical possesion rights) between each and every individual – they do not automatically apply universally, before the existance of a state (which can by force attempt to apply them universally), in the way that physical possesion rights do.
  • Published: December 20, 2007 9:45 AM

  • Kevin B
  • Person,

    There is no such thing as non-physical property rights, because there is no such thing as non-physical property, because everything is physical and non-physical is nothing but mere description of the physical.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 1:15 PM

  • Kevin B
  • And before you ask, “What is that in response to?”

    A: The continuation of your hopeless argument for for IP rights, you big faker, you.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 1:27 PM

  • Person
  • Kevin_B: What about rights to radio waves? Isn’t that non-physical property?

    Think about it.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 2:54 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Person: “What about rights to radio waves?”

    We discussed electromagnetic propagation before.

    I believe we agreed that radio waves are physical property, but we disagreed on whether or not the interaction of those waves with the receivers without the receivers owners’ permission was technically trespassing. I agree that it would take a lot of work to smooth out all of the potential suits, but hey, we’re aiming for zero trespass. And though we may disagree on what IS trespass, I think we both agree that none is better than some.

    If I’m thinking of someone else, then my response to your question is no, electromagnetic propagation is not “non-physical.” If you try hard enough, you can even see some with the naked eye.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 4:18 PM

  • Person
  • Kevin_B: EM propagation is indeed physical. So is writing a copy of a Harry Potter book.

    The question, however, is whether radio frequency rights are rights in non-physical things. Ownership of “120 kHz” is indeed ownership of a non-physical concept, even if broadcasting along it is physical.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 4:22 PM

  • Kevin B
  • You are referring to a radio wave’s frequency. It is not as if 120 kHz is out there, somewhere, and you lay some sounds on it to be carried around. The frequency is a description of the physical characteristics, but apart from the wave, there is no frequency.

    “120 kHz” itself is non-physical, nothing but mere description. You cannot own description.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 4:43 PM

  • Person
  • Kevin_B: When you own a radio frequency, you are owning the right to gesticulate your radio transmitter in a certain manner. Isn’t that ownership of non-physical property? i.e., There’s no one physical unit you own, but rather, you own some pattern of use — just like IP.
  • Published: December 20, 2007 4:52 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Let’s say you own a two-headed dragon. That doesn’t mean you own “two-headed.” “Two-headed is a description of the dragon you own. Perhaps you own a 120 kHz dragon. You can own two, three, or even four 120 kHz dragons, but you will never own “120 kHz.”
  • Published: December 20, 2007 4:54 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Person,

    You can’t have the right to produce a certain frequency, because you CAN’T produce a certain frequency.

    You CAN produce electromagnetic waves of a certain frequency, and you have the right to do that all day long, as long as your waves do not trespass on others’ physical property – including their electromagnetic waves.

    When you have the right to transmit a 120 kHz wave through another’s property, you do not OWN 120 kHz. You OWN a 120 kHz wave and the right to pass that wave through their property.

    Think of it like cars on the road. Some cars are big, some are small. But just because someone grants you the right to move small cars over their road, that doesn’t mean you own “small” or “small cars” now, does it?

  • Published: December 20, 2007 5:05 PM

  • Anthony
  • What exactly is a ‘possession’ right and how does it differ from a property right?
  • Published: December 20, 2007 5:14 PM

  • Kevin B
  • So, back to the beginning..

    There is no such thing as non-physical property rights, because there is no such thing as non-physical property, because everything is physical and non-physical is nothing but mere description of the physical.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 5:15 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Person, if you homestead “the 120kHz frequency”, this is just shorthand. It no more means you own a number or even a frequency, than you own “two-headed” if people use the words “two-headed” as shorthand to refer to your two-headed dragon.

    What the shorthand really means is that you own the exclusive right to use the 120kHz spectrum, the “airwaves”–to broadcast EM radiation of a certain power and frequency in a certain geographic area. See, Person, the airwaves are (arguendo) “scarce” since they cannot be used by more than one broadcaster at a time. My use of the 120kHz airwaves in a given area excludes your use of it, and so on. However, you might use 122kHz, which does not exclude my use of 120kHz.

    No one produces a frequency, any more than they produce a weight when they make a marble statue having a weight. The produce EM signals at a given frequency; they use a given portion of the EM spectrum characterized by its location and wavelength and bandwidth.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 5:27 PM

  • Person
  • Just going to respond to Stephan_Kinsella real quick:

    Stephan_Kinsella, if you homestead “a HARRY POTTER book”, this is just shorthand. It no more means you own a number or even a frequency, than you own “two-headed” if people use the words “two-headed” as shorthand to refer to your two-headed dragon.

    What the shorthand really means is that you own the exclusive right to INSTANTIATE the content of a Harry Potter book, — to form matter into a vehicle for that information in a certain geographic area. See, Stephan_Kinsella, the right to do so is (arguendo) “scarce” since they cannot be exclusively possessed by more than one publisher at a time. My exclusive publication of the Harry Potter book in a given area prevents your exclusive use of it, and so on. However, you might write a different book which does not take away my exclusivity for the first book.

    No one asserts ownership over “an idea”, any more than they assert ownership of the concept of weight when they make a marble statue having a weight. They assert ownership of the exclusive right to instantiate that idea in scarce objects.

    Think about it.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 5:49 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Stephan,

    I have to say that I prefer my argument better.

    Can you homestead a frequency? No, but you can create as many waves of any frequency you want and shoot them all through the junk you own, but you cannot shoot them off willy-nilly, interfering with others’ property. Plain and simple.

    When you shoot them through another’s property without permission, you are, in fact, trespassing. The way you explain it sounds as if you argue that if you are the first to begin broadcasting through an area, you then own the right to broadcast through that area. That sounds illogical.

  • Published: December 20, 2007 6:05 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Hmmm, if person A and person B each shoot a rocket into space and they accidentally collide, who committed trespass?

    A ->

    A ->

    A X B

     

     

  • Published: December 20, 2007 6:14 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Aww, my drawring didn’t work.
  • Published: December 20, 2007 6:15 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Nevermind. Doh, stupid question.
  • Published: December 20, 2007 6:21 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Person:
    “Stephan_Kinsella, if you homestead “a HARRY POTTER book”, this is just shorthand. It no more means you own a number or even a frequency, than you own “two-headed” if people use the words “two-headed” as shorthand to refer to your two-headed dragon.

    What the shorthand really means is that you own the exclusive right to INSTANTIATE the content of a Harry Potter book, — to form matter into a vehicle for that information in a certain geographic area. ”

    Person: when I use property that is unowned, I gain ownership of it. Arguably, when you use an unowned airwave by broadcasting EM signals through it, you homestead it. In your book example, if I write a book, I am NOT using all the “unowned paper” etc. out there that is implied by your breezy “right to instantiate”.

    “See, Stephan_Kinsella, the right to do so is (arguendo) “scarce” since they cannot be exclusively possessed by more than one publisher at a time. My exclusive publication of the Harry Potter book in a given area prevents your exclusive use of it, and so on. However, you might write a different book which does not take away my exclusivity for the first book.”

    Rights are not scarce–resources are. The right to instantiate in effect claims ownership of scarce resources already owned by others.

    Kevin: “I have to say that I prefer my argument better.

    Can you homestead a frequency? No, but you can create as many waves of any frequency you want and shoot them all through the junk you own, but you cannot shoot them off willy-nilly, interfering with others’ property. Plain and simple.

    When you shoot them through another’s property without permission, you are, in fact, trespassing. The way you explain it sounds as if you argue that if you are the first to begin broadcasting through an area, you then own the right to broadcast through that area. That sounds illogical.”

    You lost me. That is in fact the idea behind homesteading of airwaves. Have you read David Kelley & Roger Donway, Laissez Parler? on this?

  • Published: December 20, 2007 7:04 PM

  • Silas Barta
  • Stephan: “Person: when I use property [resource?] that is unowned, I gain ownership of it.”

    When I use a resource — knowledge — that is unowned (i.e. never used by others), I gain ownership of it too.

    “Arguably, when you use an unowned airwave by broadcasting EM signals through it, you homestead it.”

    Arguably, when you use an idea by instantiating it, you homestead it.

    “In your book example, if I write a book, I am NOT using all the “unowned paper” etc. out there”

    And if I transmit radio waves, I am not using all the “unowned radio waves” or “unowned radio transmission capability out there.

    So what?

    Say it with me: others can broadcast at your same frequency, BUT YOU DON’T LIKE THAT. See? It’s easy! You recognize that others can broadcast, but you, the broadcast on the same frequency, DON’T LIKE what results. That’s really the ONLY sense in which it’s scarce.

    But oopsie — and IP proponent can say the exact same thing about an intellectual work!

    Compare apples to apples, use terminology rigorously, and you’ll see it.

    [[THIS USER FORMERLY POSTED UNDER THE HANDLE “PERSON”.]]

  • Published: December 20, 2007 8:01 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Person:

    Stephan: “Person: when I use property [resource?] that is unowned, I gain ownership of it.”When I use a resource — knowledge — that is unowned (i.e. never used by others), I gain ownership of it too.

    “Arguably, when you use an unowned airwave by broadcasting EM signals through it, you homestead it.”

    Arguably, when you use an idea by instantiating it, you homestead it.

    No. Here is where you go off track. You don’t “use” ideas in this sense. “Use” for the purpose of homesteading means to put some previously unowned *scarce resource* to use so that it is embordered. But “ideas” are not scarce resources that you find, unowned, and homestead. You are smuggling in too much w/ the sneaky term “instantiate”. When you come up with an idea, that itself is merely a use of your own body, or other property you own–e.g., if you fashion your wood and metal into a mousetrap, you have used your property (including your body) to innovate, to come up with an idea. This “use” of the wood would be enough to homestead it, if you didn’t already own it. But it’s not a use of *my* wood. In fact, *my* wood is already owned–by me. So your thinking of ways to use your own property is not a homesteading of my property. It is not even a homesteading of all unowned wood in the world, since you are not using it.

    “In your book example, if I write a book, I am NOT using all the “unowned paper” etc. out there”And if I transmit radio waves, I am not using all the “unowned radio waves” or “unowned radio transmission capability out there.

    No, but you *are* using all of a given spectral portion of the airwaves in a given area. For example if you broadcast an FM signal at a certain power and frequency in a certain area, you are in fact using a portion of the airwaves in that geographic region.

    Say it with me: others can broadcast at your same frequency, BUT YOU DON’T LIKE THAT.

    First, I have no quite decided on this airwave homesteading thing. I think this one needs more work. But your criticisms are non-serious. If I own land, and someone else tries to use it for some purpose, like building a house on it, it’s not merely that I don’t like it–it’s that I don’t like it because, due to the rivalrous nature of the land, his building a house on it–his using it–means that I can’t use it myself. This the essence of scarcity or rivalrousness: use of the resource by one person excludes use of it by another.

    The same thing is the case with airwaves. If I am using the airwave then now my use of it is not possible if others broadcast on it. The airwaves are most definitely rivalrous resources.

    There is no way you can twist this type of analysis to cover a “right to instantiate an idea,” sorry.

    See? It’s easy! You recognize that others can broadcast, but you, the broadcast on the same frequency, DON’T LIKE what results. That’s really the ONLY sense in which it’s scarce.

    Study what rivalry means, Person.

    But oopsie — and IP proponent can say the exact same thing about an intellectual work!

    No, he can’t, b/c intellectual works are not rivalrous–unlike the EM spectrum and other scarce resources. Rather, b/c they are not scarce, IP rights really means rights in others’ property.

    “[[THIS USER FORMERLY POSTED UNDER THE HANDLE “PERSON”.]]”

    I don’t believe you. You are impersonating Person. I think Person should sue. After all, he “created” his reputation, and he should “own” it.

     

     

     

  • Published: December 20, 2007 9:07 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Stephan Kinsella: “Have you read David Kelley & Roger Donway, Laissez Parler? on this?”

    I admit that I have not. Perhaps I will be able to soon.

    Me: “Can you homestead a frequency? No…When you shoot them through another’s property without permission, you are, in fact, trespassing. The way you explain it sounds as if you argue that if you are the first to begin broadcasting through an area, you then own the right to broadcast through that area. That sounds illogical.”

    Stephan Kinsella: “You lost me. That is in fact the idea behind homesteading of airwaves.”

    Okay, without having read too much on the idea, I’m willing to put some thought into it.

    The first problem I have, though, is that those radio waves may be affecting others’ property.

    For instance: Say, I am the first to build a transmitter and begin transmitting. The radio waves I transmit pass through (and interact with) my neighbor’s house, appliances, dog, etc.

    Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?

    Second, the idea of owning a “path” seems illogical to me, since a path is no more than a description of physical property. Just as 120 kHz describes a certain bit of energy, so does a path describe a specific collection of dirt, gravel, or whatever. The “path”, apart from its physical components, isn’t anything more than an idea, and we both agree that an idea is just a description of physical property – unownable.

    And when you say you own the path of the waves, you’re really saying that you own the materials it travels through, or, if it travels through empty space, simply the wave itself.

    So, if you transmit radiation through an object, would you say that you then come into ownership of it? I dare say that merely pointing a walkie-talkie at something seems hardly substantial enough to claim ownership of it.

    Regards,

    Kevin B

  • Published: December 20, 2007 10:02 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • i own your computer person. if i make a computer program, i own it, because the gang of thieves said so. they can turn anything into property by simply passing a “law”. if they decide that they own the atmosphere, all they have to do is pass a carbon “tax” and poof, they own the atmosphere too! if they decide they own each and every one of us, all they have to do is pass an income “tax” and poof! we’re all slaves. if they decide to pass a “patent” law, suddenly they own all the property too! of course, they’re nice enuf to spread around the theft a bit, so some “inventors” get some of the loot. sounds real magic like, this gang of thieves.
  • Published: December 20, 2007 10:21 PM

  • TLWP Sam
  • So what if patents have an exclusionary feature? You could say people who own land that isn’t being used for anything in particular are simply being exclusionary too? Likewise, so what if scientists and engineers are engaging in R&D; not for the betterment of the human race but in the Adam Smith Selfishness of securing their inventions with patents? If patents and copyrights have been the main reason for the acceleration of R&D; and technology we enjoy nowadays so what? There’s been plently of other eras where there were no patents or copyrights yet there wasn’t much growth in technology.
  • Published: December 21, 2007 12:41 AM

  • Inquisitor
  • TWLP, you’re merely regurgitating what Person had said. The reasons why cannot be justified in the same way other property can have been given above.
  • Published: December 21, 2007 7:35 AM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Kevin: “Me: “Can you homestead a frequency? No…When you shoot them through another’s property without permission, you are, in fact, trespassing. The way you explain it sounds as if you argue that if you are the first to begin broadcasting through an area, you then own the right to broadcast through that area. That sounds illogical.”

    Stephan Kinsella: “You lost me. That is in fact the idea behind homesteading of airwaves.”

    Okay, without having read too much on the idea, I’m willing to put some thought into it.

    The first problem I have, though, is that those radio waves may be affecting others’ property.

    For instance: Say, I am the first to build a transmitter and begin transmitting. The radio waves I transmit pass through (and interact with) my neighbor’s house, appliances, dog, etc.

    Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?”

    This is where the cocncpets of trespass, scarcity/rivalrousness, “use,” “nuisance,” and “relevant technological unit” come into play (see Rothbad on this). I think these concepts have to come into play in defining praxeoloigcally what property is. In fact, merey by existing, and moving around, you cause various perturbations of the EM field and gravitational field, causing those waves to pass through everyone else’s property, no? But this is not a “use” of their property b/c it does not practically affect their own use of their property. If it does not prevent their use of their property, then it’s not a conflict, so not a trespass. Etc.

    “Second, the idea of owning a “path” seems illogical to me, since a path is no more than a description of physical property.”

    I could see an argument for a property rigth in a path–an easement or right of way; this has implications for shipping lanes and airways (where planes fly).

    We must remember property is not purely physical but has a praxeological aspect.

    “And when you say you own the path of the waves, you’re really saying that you own the materials it travels through, or, if it travels through empty space, simply the wave itself.”

    I view it as the EM spectrum itself (in a certain geographic reagin, and with other defining characteristics pertaining to the nature of the use being made of it, namely as an information-carrying medium, thus characterized by a certain center frequency and bandwidth etc.) as a rivalrous resource b/c use of it by one person excludes the use of it by others. If two people attempt to drive a car at the same time, they will both be frustrated. Likewise, if two people broadcast at the same frequency too close too each other, neither will be able to use the spectrum.

    Thus, once we identify the specrum as a scarce resource, the qeustion is who gets to control it. This is where the first-use principle kicks in.

    Though I admit I’m uncomfortable going too far in this area, from my armchair.

    “So, if you transmit radiation through an object, would you say that you then come into ownership of it?”

    No, becuase it’s not a use of it. Again, see Rothbard’s relevant technological unit discussion.

    ” I dare say that merely pointing a walkie-talkie at something seems hardly substantial enough to claim ownership of it.”

    Agreed. But to claim airwave ownership one is not claiming the physical objects that are incidentially and trivally affected on some unobservable level; one is claiming that which *is* affected, which is the spectrum one is perturbating.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 7:42 AM

  • Person
  • Stephan_Kinsella: You are still grasping for differences between radio wave ownership and IP, but not finding any.

    “No. Here is where you go off track. You don’t “use” ideas in this sense. “Use” for the purpose of homesteading means to put some previously unowned *scarce resource* to use so that it is embordered.”

    And how are radio waves embordered? And when you homestead a frequency, how did you use all transmitters in the area?

    “No, but you *are* using all of a given spectral portion of the airwaves in a given area.”

    No, I’m not “using all of it”. OTHER PEOPLE CAN STILL TRANSMIT! They can still set up their own transmitters and make their own waves. The fact that they are picky about information transfer capability should be irrelevant. What if people liked making radio waves for the hell of it? (e.g. as dictated by their religion) Would there then be property rights in the frequencies?

    “First, I have no quite decided on this airwave homesteading thing. I think this one needs more work. But your criticisms are non-serious.”

    Oh yes, and here we get to the crux of it all. You understand that your position isn’t *quite* all worked out. Yeah, there are some kinks that need straightening out. But only YOU get to dictate what is a valid criticism. And of course, anything that has any hope of revealing fundamental inconsistencies, well — that’s just non-serious.

    “The same thing is the case with airwaves. If I am using the airwave then now my use of it is not possible if others broadcast on it. The airwaves are most definitely rivalrous resources.”

    Again, the difference is that you can broadcast it. Why are you “not using” a frequency unless you are transmitting information? Why does your desire to transmit *in addition to broadcasting* entitle you to tell others what to do with their transmitters?

    It is identical to someone saying “Yeah, I know you and I can both distribute my book … but I’m not really using the book-distributing rights unless i’m the only one doing it.”

    “Yeah, I know you can I can both send radio waves along this frequency. But I’m not really using it unless that transmission can contain noise-free information.”

    Your refual to serious study the sense in which goods are rivalrous blinds you to the distinctions you’re carelessly blurring over.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 9:41 AM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Silas: “And how are radio waves embordered? And when you homestead a frequency, how did you use all transmitters in the area?”

    Embordering means to establish borders–setting up intersubjectively ascertainable limits–. When use of a given airwave is pervasive enough then others can determine (a) that it is being used, and (b) how to avoid invading those borders. That is all.

    If I broadcast I am *not* cliaming a property right in other transmitters. Only in the airwaves. But if I homestead land, say, or own my body, or a car, it means you may not violate the borders of those thigns without my consent. This does not mean I “own” your gun, say–it’s simply the case that my ownership of a thing means simply that you may not employ *any* means to trespass. It does mean I own your means. It means you can’t use your means to commit crime/trespass.

    “”No, but you *are* using all of a given spectral portion of the airwaves in a given area.”

    No, I’m not “using all of it”. OTHER PEOPLE CAN STILL TRANSMIT! They can still set up their own transmitters and make their own waves.”

    Yes, and two people can tug at the wheel of a car at the same time. But neither will be able to use the car for its relevant purpose, which is driving, while this is occurring.

    “The fact that they are picky about information transfer capability should be irrelevant.”

    No; because there is a praxeological aspect to what property is. It’s not merely physical.

    “”First, I have no quite decided on this airwave homesteading thing. I think this one needs more work. But your criticisms are non-serious.”

    “Oh yes, and here we get to the crux of it all. You understand that your position isn’t *quite* all worked out.”

    My position is worked out just fine. I’m just not sure how a real society would apply the basic principles of homesteading to every conceivable resource. The details don’t interest me overmuch.

    But it’s obvious your criticisms are illogical.

    “Yeah, there are some kinks that need straightening out. But only YOU get to dictate what is a valid criticism. And of course, anything that has any hope of revealing fundamental inconsistencies, well — that’s just non-serious.”

    I’m glad you see things my way now, Silas.

    “”The same thing is the case with airwaves. If I am using the airwave then now my use of it is not possible if others broadcast on it. The airwaves are most definitely rivalrous resources.”

    “Again, the difference is that you can broadcast it. Why are you “not using” a frequency unless you are transmitting information?”

    Read rothbard on the relevant technological unit. This is boring.

    “Your refual to serious study the sense in which goods are rivalrous blinds you to the distinctions you’re carelessly blurring over.'”

    Said the joker to the thief. There’s too much confusion. I can’t get no relief.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 10:07 AM

  • Person
  • Stephan_Kinsella: Aha! And here we get to the root of our disagreement:

    “But neither will be able to use the car for its relevant purpose, which is driving,”

    Why is the relevant purpose of an intellectual work not “exclusive publishing”?

    Think about it.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 12:00 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Me: “Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?”

    Stephan: “If it does not prevent their use of their property, then it’s not a conflict, so not a trespass.”

    Well, we have a problem here, because your transmission of radio waves certainly makes use of my property. I know because if you are transmitting through my property before I am, then I cannot use my property to transmit through on the same frequency, right?

    “In fact, merey by existing, and moving around, you cause various perturbations of the EM field and gravitational field, causing those waves to pass through everyone else’s property, no?”

    Some people also make loud noises, stink, step on your toes, cough on you, etc., but those are the little trespasses we put up with to get along. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

    “I could see an argument for a property rigth in a path–an easement or right of way; this has implications for shipping lanes and airways (where planes fly).

    We must remember property is not purely physical but has a praxeological aspect.”

    Hmmm, isn’t an easement or right of way a right to use property? I totally agree that you can have a right to use a path of road, and there can even be argument to use a path of water or air, but I just cannot see how one could argue for a right to use a “path” absent physical presence. If there is no physical aspect, then there is only your imagination. Person is right to note the similarities between non-physical paths, the non-physical spectrum, and IP.

    “…the EM spectrum itself…namely as an information-carrying medium…”

    But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.

    Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it? Compare the situation to two cars competing for a bit of road. The cars are the radio waves, and the road is – not the imaginary “spectrum” – but the receiving antenna.

    I’m glad we agree that one cannot claim physical objects in a incidental or trivial manner. Perhaps we may end up agreeing on whether or not one can actually claim ownership of the non-physical. It is my position that if it isn’t physical, then it doesn’t exist except in the imagination. The imagination is composed of physical brain matter, and that brain matter describes to us the physical world around us. When we confuse imagination with reality, it isn’t surprising that we think it justifiable to place claims of ownership of the imaginary.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 1:30 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Person,

    I now see why you bring the fight for IP back to radio, for it is Kinsella’s weak spot. (No offence.)

    I hope that you are not actually arguing for IP out of some desire to win, but are actually eager for logic and reason to prevail.

    I do not side with Kinsella for spectrum rights, because like IP it is purely a non-physical description of the physical. In other words, just as Kinsella criticizes IP for claiming ownership on property already owned, spectrum “rights” do the same (as I noted in my last post to him).

    Neither “spectrum rights” nor “IP rights” hold up to the test of physical reality. If we agree that it is illogical to be able to own that which does not exist, then that is where they and all other imagined rights fail.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 1:49 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Kevin,

    this is not my “weak spot” since I don’t have definitive views on it. I think this area is underdeveloped. These are simply my evolving thoughts on all this.

    “Me: “Now, how can I have the right to transmit energy through my neighbor’s property without his permission?”

    “Stephan: “If it does not prevent their use of their property, then it’s not a conflict, so not a trespass.”

    “Well, we have a problem here, because your transmission of radio waves certainly makes use of my property. I know because if you are transmitting through my property before I am, then I cannot use my property to transmit through on the same frequency, right?”

    I think you are confusing your means with your property. What does transmitting “through” your property have to do with anything? Imagine an EM spectrum that bathed the whole area, except your tract of land (some weird Gaussian box shielded it). Now my EM waves are not going “through” your property at all. BUt you are still unable to use a transmitter (whosever it is; wherever it’s located) to perturb the EM spectrum in the areas where it does exist.

    Are you saying that to transmit a radio signal, over a 10 square mile area, I need to get permission of every single tract owner in that area? Then you have a view similar to Walter Block re roads.

    “”In fact, merey by existing, and moving around, you cause various perturbations of the EM field and gravitational field, causing those waves to pass through everyone else’s property, no?”

    “Some people also make loud noises, stink, step on your toes, cough on you, etc., but those are the little trespasses we put up with to get along. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.””

    But they are not trespasses, really.

    “”I could see an argument for a property rigth in a path–an easement or right of way; this has implications for shipping lanes and airways (where planes fly).

    “We must remember property is not purely physical but has a praxeological aspect.”

    “Hmmm, isn’t an easement or right of way a right to use property? I totally agree that you can have a right to use a path of road, and there can even be argument to use a path of water or air, but I just cannot see how one could argue for a right to use a “path” absent physical presence.”

    Oh, I see. Well, it seem to me that you use a resource according to its, and the given use’s, nature. You use a field by farming it. A path by walking on it. An EM spectrum by broadcasting over it. Etc.

    “If there is no physical aspect, then there is only your imagination. Person is right to note the similarities between non-physical paths, the non-physical spectrum, and IP.”

    There is a physical aspect–EM signals are real. Shoot someone in the eye with a laser beam, you’ll see what I mean.

    “”…the EM spectrum itself…namely as an information-carrying medium…”

    But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.”

    Well, then you can think of it as right to use a given volume of space for a particular limited purpose. To me, this is just a detail. We are beign armchair philosophers a bit too much–going beyond what we can guess the market would decide.

    “Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it?”

    The owner’s, but he cannot use it to bash you over the head, nor to violate your airwaves.

    “I’m glad we agree that one cannot claim physical objects in a incidental or trivial manner. Perhaps we may end up agreeing on whether or not one can actually claim ownership of the non-physical. It is my position that if it isn’t physical, then it doesn’t exist except in the imagination.”

    But EM waves are not non-physical. If they were, you could have two people broadcast at the same time with no interference.
    “I do not side with Kinsella for spectrum rights, because like IP it is purely a non-physical description of the physical.”

    I am open on the airwave issue. I am not so sure about it as I am about IP or normal property.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:01 PM

  • Person
  • “I hope that you are not actually arguing for IP out of some desire to win, but are actually eager for logic and reason to prevail.”

    Thank you, Kevin_B. This is exactly why I post: because I find the arguments against IP (and many that are for!) to be unsatisfying, and I post to reveal the inconsistencies. I think we understand each other at this point.

    You came to the same conclusion as I did: that IP and spectrum rights sink or swim together.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:03 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • if you believe in physical property, you cannot believe in patents, or copyrites.

    patents tell other people what to do with their own physical property. you do not own “your” computer if you cannot do whatever you wish with it, and copying a string of bits does not count as aggression, in and of itself.

    you do not own “your” printer if you cannot print whatever you wish, and printing a copy of something does not count as aggression, in and of itself.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:07 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • while in the past, “ownership” of airwaves was perhaps necessary due to primitive technology, now it is certainly not the case with advanced transmission techniques which allow simultaneous transmission while making other transmissions appear as background noise. the success of the 2.4ghz frequencies is a case in point.
  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:12 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Stephan Kinsella: “Imagine an EM spectrum that bathed the whole area, except your tract of land (some weird Gaussian box shielded it). Now my EM waves are not going “through” your property at all. BUt you are still unable to use a transmitter (whosever it is; wherever it’s located) to perturb the EM spectrum in the areas where it does exist.”

    Exactly! I cannot, nor should I be able to, transmit radiation through property that I do not own. I have no right.

    “Are you saying that to transmit a radio signal, over a 10 square mile area, I need to get permission of every single tract owner in that area? Then you have a view similar to Walter Block re roads.”

    Why should an owner of a path of road or a path of wire have the right to determine who has the may use it, but the owner of a path of radio antenna not?

    “Well, it seem to me that you use a resource according to its, and the given use’s, nature. You use a field by farming it. A path by walking on it. An EM spectrum by broadcasting over it. Etc.”

    Well, you said that you don’t have definitive views on the subject, and here I point to easy improvement. Yes, you use a field by farming it. Yes, you use a path (of grass, dirt, gravel, cement, etc.) by walking on it. But the EM spectrum…you cannot broadcast over it. It isn’t there – not like the field is there. Let me explain:

    A great many things may be farmed on a field, right? Corn, apples, oranges, wheat, etc. Well, think of those possible farmable products as the range of farming, or the farming spectrum. Just as the EM spectrum refers to *possible* EM radiation, so does the farming spectrum refer to *possible* crops to grow. Neither spectrum actually exists as anything more than our imagination. To claim ownership on either spectrum is a conflicting claim with actual physical property, apples, the field, EM radiation, or the antenna. See?

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:29 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • radiation in low doses has been proven to be harmful. if you want to stop transmissions anyways, that is your responsibility. it is not other people’s responsibility to make sure you come under no possibility whatsoever of harm. you have no right to stop other people from transmitting using their own property, unless you can prove that those transmissions are causing you harm.
  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:38 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Person: “IP and spectrum rights sink or swim together.”

    Agreed, and as you know I think they both sink.

    “This is exactly why I post: because I find the arguments against IP (and many that are for!) to be unsatisfying, and I post to reveal the inconsistencies.”

    Well, you haven’t posted a counter-argument to my position that only the physical can be owned, other than radio waves. But now that you understand my position regarding the spectrum and radio waves, what have you to say?

    Do you find my position, that everything which exists is physical, that the non-physical is mere description of the physical, that therefore only the physical can be rightfully owned, to be unsatisfying?

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:40 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Joseph Huang: “you have no right to stop other people from transmitting using their own property, unless you can prove that those transmissions are causing you harm.”

    Technically, it is easy to prove that transmissions are causing you harm. Just turn on your radio.

    “it is not other people’s responsibility to make sure you come under no possibility whatsoever of harm.”

    Sure, it is not their responsibility to make sure you are not harmed from any source, except if it is by them.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:45 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Stephan,

    When I said, “I cannot, nor should I be able to, transmit radiation through property that I do not own. I have no right,” I mean that I have no right to transmit through property that others own. You probably understood what I meant, but I just want to be clear.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:48 PM

  • Person
  • Kevin_B: “But now that you understand my position regarding the spectrum and radio waves, what have you to say? Do you find my position, that everything which exists is physical, that the non-physical is mere description of the physical, that therefore only the physical can be rightfully owned, to be unsatisfying?”

    Well, to be honest, I didn’t read everything in your exchange with Stephan_Kinsella, but as I understand it, I do think it’s unsatisfying. People conflict over many things which cannot be expressed as full ownership of a physical object. To specify a framework for resolving ALL disputes, you have to allow for ownership of bundles of rights. Those rights necessarily deal with intangibles: for example, stock ownership, lease agreements, etc.

    So, I prefer to think in terms of buying “bundles of rights”. For example, when you rent an apartment, you are buying “temporary usage rights.”

    Decisions to assign rights to the “full purpose” of an object seem arbitrary by necessity.

    One last thing: about IP/spectrum parity: doesn’t the fact that your position if implemented would mean no useful use of the radio spectrum, suggest to you that you made a mistake somewhere? Because not being able to use radio waves would suck.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 2:50 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • static on the radio does not meet my standard of harm, at least. i meant harm in the harm as in causing cancer sense, perhaps i wasn’t clear about that. if you choose to use a transmission method so vulnerable to interference, you should expect that sometimes the transmissions will be blocked. you should have chosen a better method, and it is not other people’s fault for you not choosing such a method.
  • Published: December 21, 2007 3:04 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Person: “…I didn’t read everything in your exchange with Stephan_Kinsella…”

    Please do. It wasn’t too lengthy, and it seems that you have enough time on your hands today. 😉

    “…doesn’t the fact that your position if implemented would mean no useful use of the radio spectrum, suggest to you that you made a mistake somewhere? Because not being able to use radio waves would suck.”

    Not being able to bug out the the funky beats on the radio would indeed suck. However, just as the argument for anarchy of government doesn’t necessarily mean there will be chaos, so would my position not preclude the possibility of contractually meeting the demand for great tunes.

    I am not saying that there shouldn’t be radio waves or police. But I think those services should both be offered rather than forced.

    “Those rights necessarily deal with intangibles: for example, stock ownership, lease agreements, etc.”

    Those intangibles are mere descriptions of tangibles. Any conflict over an intangible (or non-physical) is actually conflict over the tangible.

    ‘So, I prefer to think in terms of buying “bundles of rights”. For example, when you rent an apartment, you are buying “temporary usage rights.”‘

    Apartments are physical. I do not see any conflict with my position.

    I figured that you wouldn’t find my position satisfying, but wouldn’t quite have an argument against it. Please try.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 3:08 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Joseph Huang,

    I wasn’t speaking of static as being proof of harm, but the groovy tunes that you hear. (Unless you agree to the transmissions, of course.)

  • Published: December 21, 2007 3:12 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • the reason why you are able to rent an apartment is because there is a rightful owner of the apartment.

    since the state is not the rightful decider of what is and isn’t property, and who the property belongs to, a better analogy would be a mafia coming into your town and deciding to extract rent from all the residents. and giving it to whoever they pleased.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 6:24 PM

  • Joseph Huang
  • that’s not harm. to harm is to do something that has a negative impact. i am not harmed just because i’m standing next to someone talking on a cell phone. i am not harmed if there is a ronja link across the air above my property. a ronja link uses infrared or red light to transmit information.
  • Published: December 21, 2007 6:30 PM

  • greg
  • As a radio engineer, I sorta hope that posters in this thread who talking about the EM spectrum and its uses will refrain from asserting as much as they do.


    Kevin B at December 20, 2007 4:43 PM

    The frequency is a description of the physical characteristics, but apart from the wave, there is no frequency.

    “120 kHz” itself is non-physical, nothing but mere description. You cannot own description.

     

    The “frequency” is a relevent portion of the description of some real physical phenomena. To make that work, you would have to say that “a house” is non-physical, and that it is mere description. The point is that nothing you say there about the descriptive method distinguishes “a house” as a prospect for property from EM spectrum as a prospect for property.

     

    Stephan Kinsella at December 20, 2007 5:27 PM
    No one produces a frequency, any more than they produce a weight when they make a marble statue having a weight. The produce EM signals at a given frequency; they use a given portion of the EM spectrum characterized by its location and wavelength and bandwidth.

    Hmmm… I don’t think that is so keen of an analogy, or it is quite imprecise, at best. If you are talking about conservation of mass (when talking about “weight”) then you should in simile be saying that no one produces energy any more than they produce mass. While true, that would miss the point here: energy is being transformed from one form into a very specific form. One descriptive characteristic of the final transformation is of frequency spectral density. And as you know, mass can be transformed too (by mixing labor/energy). The frequency, or energy in a frequency band, is certainly “produced.”

     


    Stephan Kinsella at December 20, 2007 7:04 PM

    Arguably, when you use an unowned airwave by broadcasting EM signals through it, you homestead it.
    …
    You lost me. That is in fact the idea behind homesteading of airwaves. Have you read David Kelley & Roger Donway, Laissez Parler? on this?

     

    On the first sentence, I’d strongly agree that it is certainly arguable.

    You’ve mentioned Kelley & Donway & Laissez Parler before, and one time provided a link. However, I saw nothing relevent at that link. Do you have any particular paper, text, or link you can share?

    Silas Barta at December 20, 2007 8:01 PM
    Say it with me: others can broadcast at your same frequency, BUT YOU DON’T LIKE THAT. See? It’s easy! You recognize that others can broadcast, but you, the broadcast on the same frequency, DON’T LIKE what results. That’s really the ONLY sense in which it’s scarce.

    Sure, it is scarce because various users can jam each other. It’s physical. It is scarce. You said “only,” so how many varieties of scarce in real physical things are required to say “scarce is scarce?” {laughs}


    Stephan Kinsella at December 21, 2007 7:42 AM

    I view it as the EM spectrum itself … as a rivalrous resource b/c use of it by one person excludes the use of it by others. If two people attempt to drive a car at the same time, they will both be frustrated. Likewise, if two people broadcast at the same frequency too close too each other, neither will be able to use the spectrum.

     

    “[U]se of it by one person excludes the use of it by others” is really a technological oversimplification. It isn’t generally true, although it can be true in particular cases. I really have some skepticism in taking a specific situtation and then forming a general rule of conduct from it.

    Person at December 21, 2007 9:41 AM
    No, I’m not “using all of it”. OTHER PEOPLE CAN STILL TRANSMIT! They can still set up their own transmitters and make their own waves. The fact that they are picky about information transfer capability should be irrelevant. What if people liked making radio waves for the hell of it? (e.g. as dictated by their religion) Would there then be property rights in the frequencies?

    Frankly, the whole tone of that is bizarre. Of course “use,” whether “religious” or for “information transfer capability,” is completely relevent. People use a resource because they believe it does something they find satisfying. The end is always relevent. And for the communications folks, “information” is the only thing they care about, and EM wave is part of the real physical means.

    The transmitter is only part of the link. The path(s) and the receiver(s) are other parts. You always pick this one part of the system (the transmitter) to talk about. Why I don’t know and I’m pretty sure at this point that you don’t either.

    Stephan Kinsella at December 21, 2007 10:07 AM
    Embordering means to establish borders–setting up intersubjectively ascertainable limits–. When use of a given airwave is pervasive enough then others can determine (a) that it is being used, and (b) how to avoid invading those borders. That is all.

    Stephan Kinsella at December 21, 2007 10:07 AM
    My position is worked out just fine. I’m just not sure how a real society would apply the basic principles of homesteading to every conceivable resource. The details don’t interest me overmuch.

    I agree with the embordering idea, as a method to establish property rights. It seems to be exactly what happens. However, applying this to EM seems to have a rather fundamental problem: it is extraordinarily hard to describe a sustainable border to EM and keep the border stable. Its basic nature makes that a sketchy proposition. (There are some other problems too.)

    The reason embordering has worked so well for large classes of physical objects is that the objects, by their very nature of stable physical mass (real or personal), allow people to agree on the borders for a low transaction cost. I’m not saying this could not be done for EM spectrum, but the fact that it isn’t done, and I have not seen one good analysis or application of it, leads me to think the costs are “too high” in part because producing good descriptions of embordering have a high measure of difficulty. People, like electrons, seek the lowest energy state, and in the EM case, force is perceived (“felt”) as costing less than peaceful agreements on borders, whatever the moral pronouncements or long-thinking logic on that may be.

    There seems to be a bad habit among many libertarians, when there is a conflict-of-interest and resources, to simply say “just apply the principles of property rights!” and then the argument is over. I don’t think so. I think there is a strong cause for, and benefit to, applying property rights to as much as possible. After all, when property rights are functioning, there is really nothing better to the end goal of a peaceful and prosperous population. The crux of what I’m trying to get across is that I think in the particular case of EM spectrum, it is decidedly difficult to apply property principles due to the nature of the physical thing. I think this is why it has not been done. It is worth thinking about and developing a good way to apply the property principles. To my knowledge, this has not been done.

    For my part, I have a certain faith that users can develop and evolve customs of use on their own, without any grand efforts from a state or outside-looking-in intellectuals. In fact, I’ve seen some of that happen in the unlicensed bands. To the extent workable customs can be developed, and when boundary cases are applied to free courts and arbitrators, a body of customary law could be developed organically. That was not allowed to happen in the USA.

    Kevin B at December 21, 2007 1:30 PM
    But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.

    This is that same old “what is a description of something real?” Particular EM energy (or photons/particles/mass, if you wanna go all duality on us) is as physically real as some particular house is real. Both are symbols (abstractions) of real things in the sense that it is language. You can point an antenna to space and pick up CMB from the big bang if you want to. It’s there — all the time. But your problem with making language the problem, is that doing so paralyzes talking about pretty much anything. Language is always an abstraction, a model, a way of communicating about something — language is never the thing itself. So your beef includes nothing that distinguishes itself because it applies to any use of language.

    Kevin B at December 21, 2007 1:30 PM
    Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it?

    Again, this (“cannot”) is a strict technological mistake. Signals certainly can be multiplexed onto the same frequency band and directed to a singular receiver. The “same radio” is the receiver. The owner of the receiver(s) may or may not be the same person/entity as the owner(s) of the transmitters. I can’t see the relevence.

    Kevin B at December 21, 2007 1:49 PM
    I now see why you bring the fight for IP back to radio, for it is Kinsella’s weak spot. (No offence.)

    It is more of a red herring that should nonetheless be addressed rather than a weak spot. It is a false analogy.

    Person at December 21, 2007 2:03 PM
    You came to the same conclusion as I did: that IP and spectrum rights sink or swim together.

    No. IP fails because ideas are not physical. EM ownership might fail as far as cost effectively pushing EM-ownership into a property rights paradigm. EM is a real physical thing — but the basic trouble is that its essential physical attributes do not lend it easily to the property rights paradigm. You confate the failures, thinking the mechanism is the same. It is just not so. They might both sink, but they wouldn’t be doing it together.

  • Published: December 21, 2007 7:23 PM

  • Kevin B
  • Well greg,

    As a former nuclear power plant operator, allow me to help you understand what I meant:

    For the sake of everyone else, let us keep things simplified.

    Freuquency
    “the number of cycles or completed alternations per unit time of a wave or oscillation

    Now greg, when you say ‘The “frequency” is a relevent portion of the description of some real physical phenomena’ you are correct. In fact the wave IS a real physical phenomena. That is my point. The frequency is a description of the number of cycles (blah blah) of the wave. The WAVE is physical..it is real. That was my point. But there is no “frequency” in the same way there is no “EM spectrum.” Is that better?

    Me: “But there really is no EM spectrum. The spectrum is merely what we call the imagined range of possibile frequencies of EM radiation.”

    greg: ‘This is that same old “what is a description of something real?”‘

    No, it should be fairly obvious that the “EM spectrum,” as an physical object in itself, is NOT there. Did you read my “farming spectrum” analogy? Can you own a piece of the farming spectrum? I know you’re right when you say that “ideas are not physical,” but I could nit-pick too and say that you’re asserting too much, since ideas DO exist – physically. They’re in our heads now, aren’t they? But what you MEAN is something completely different, now, isn’t it? You mean there is no “idea” apart from the cells in our heads. I’m saying there is no “frequency” apart from the EM energy. I hope that’s clearer.

    Me: “Now, it is true that two people cannot transmit to the same radio using waves of the same frequency and each get the different effects they desire, but (and this is important) who’s radio is it?”

    greg: ‘Again, this (“cannot”) is a strict technological mistake. Signals certainly can be multiplexed onto the same frequency band and directed to a singular receiver. The “same radio” is the receiver. The owner of the receiver(s) may or may not be the same person/entity as the owner(s) of the transmitters. I can’t see the relevence.’

    Again, you are not even trying. What receiver are you talking about? Not the average home stereo trying to receive a signal fromthe local radio station, brother. Work with us here.

    Me: “I now see why you bring the fight for IP back to radio…”

    greg: “It is a false analogy.”

    Really? And just how, pray tell, does the “EM spectrum” (by my and Kinsella’s usage of the term) physically exist?

    And finally:

    greg: “IP fails because ideas are not physical. EM ownership might fail as far as cost effectively pushing EM-ownership into a property rights paradigm. EM is a real physical thing…”

    Come on. I never said that EM radiation isn’t real. I said the EM spectrum is a description of the possible range of frequencies of electromagnetic energy – and that range cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL EM radiation) be owned, unless you can see 120 kHz nothings flying around.

    Person is saying that just as Kinsella is arguing for the ownership of a piece of the range of possible frequencies within a given geographical area, so can he argue for the ownership of a piece of the range of possible ideas within a geographical area. Correct me if I’m wrong, Person.

  • Published: December 22, 2007 5:43 PM

  • greg
  • Kevin:
    That was my point. But there is no “frequency” in the same way there is no “EM spectrum.” Is that better?

    No, I still view it as only a undistinguished complaint regarding the application of basic language (to the purpose of describing physical phenomena).

     

    Kevin:

    [I]t should be fairly obvious that the “EM spectrum,” as an physical object in itself, is NOT there.

     

    No, a “house,” is a mere archetype for particular instantiations of “house,” just as “EM spectrum” is a mere archetype for particular instantiations of “EM spectrum.” We say we can own “a house,” because we know there a particular instantiations of “house.” We also know full well there are particular instantiations of “EM spectrum.” We simply have more descriptive difficulties with the practical aspects of “EM spectrum” than “house,” thus the transaction costs are way too high. So it is a practical descriptive problem that limits our ability to easily say (agree that) “joe owns instantiation X of ‘EM spectrum.'”

    Kevin:
    I’m saying there is no “frequency” apart from the EM energy. I hope that’s clearer.

    No, it is the same non-distinguishing complaint about basic language as ever. I could likewise say: “I’m saying there is no ‘house’ apart from boards, bricks, plaster, and paint.”

    Kevin:
    What receiver are you talking about? Not the average home stereo trying to receive a signal from the local radio station, brother. Work with us here.

    That is a great example. A “home stereo,” while old technology, is explicitly an example of a multiplexed system. There is no reason — other than regulatory and historical — why a “stereo receiver” cannot use the L and R “channels” to output completely separate and uncorrelated messages. SCA and paging are also often multiplexed onto a (FM) carrier for a receiver to decode. Modern radio systems can have more than one input and more than one output (MIMO). In the most generalized case, there does not have to be correlation between the inputs, and consequently in the outputs. That the inputs and outputs most often are correlated is a basic fact of what people desire in a system, not what is technologically possible.

    Kevin:
    And just how, pray tell, does the “EM spectrum” (by my and Kinsella’s usage of the term) physically exist?

    I could likewise say: “And just how, pray tell, does a ‘house’ [an archetype] … physically exist?”

    Kevin:
    I said the EM spectrum is a description of the possible range of frequencies of electromagnetic energy – and that range cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL EM radiation) be owned, unless you can see 120 kHz nothings flying around.

    I could likewise say: “I said a house is a description of the possible arrangement of boards, bricks, plaster, and paint — and that description cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL boards, bricks, plaster, and paint) be owned, unless you can see house nothings flying around.”

    There is nothing in your argument that is distinguishing when it comes describing to physical phenomena, whether EM particles|energy or houses.

    Maybe your problem is that a photon has zero rest mass. (A photon doesn’t exist at zero velocity.) But if a system emits a photon, then it’s resulting mass is correspondingly lower. And the converse is a system that absorbs a photon — then the mass in that case is increased by the absorbtion. A photon has the wave-particle duality, like everything else. For some reason, you have a problem with a particle that seems to have zero rest mass. The reason EM is difficult from a property rights perspective is because of its “free” (photon) nature, not because “it does not exist” but “a house does exist.” It is simply easier for humans to draw (and agree on) a boundary around a particle (a house for example) with a velocity far lower than the speed of light than to draw a boundary around particles that are traveling at the speed of light.

    And maybe you have a problem with the idea that photon particles can be created or not created (or “destroyed”) on time scales far smaller than a house can be created, and then knocked down, or a forest converted to pasture and then grown back into a forest. Who knows? It is the boundary descriptive problems of EM that make it unwieldy and not well lent to property rights, as we currently understand them. It is not that “EM Spectrum” is some weird non-physical archetype fiction unlike the “house” archetype. “House,” as an archetype, is also a non-physical fiction — it is a “product” of human capability for abstraction and symbolic thought.

    Is the energy that PG&E; (my supplier of electric energy) sends down the transmission line (to my house) PG&E;’s property, or can I just take it without paying because it is simply energy (rather than mass), and not an “object” and thus not “property?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie_hypothesis

  • Published: December 27, 2007 7:59 PM

  • Kevin B
  • greg,

    Thank you. Let us dissolve our misunderstanding of each other.

    “I said a house is a description of the possible arrangement of boards, bricks, plaster, and paint — and that description cannot itself (apart from the ACTUAL boards, bricks, plaster, and paint) be owned, unless you can see house nothings flying around.”

    That is a fine description of a house. Now, what is a fine description of the EM spectrum? Until now, I thought you saw it the same as I, as the range of *possible* frequencies of EM radiation within a given area, but I was wrong. As I understand you, you define the EM spectrum as EM radiation and the medium it passes through. I am correct, aren’t I? After all, my house certainly isn’t hypothetical. So for you to compare my house to part of the EM spectrum, you must be referring to the actual and not the hypothetical.

    So, if you are indeed suggesting that EM radiation exists, then I agree. If you are also saying that a physical medium exists, then I agree. If you say there is really no more to it than what is physically there, then I agree.

    Here is my difficulty:

    – EM radiation is owned by the transmitter.
    – The medium is owned by the owner of the medium.

    By my understanding of property rights, spectrum rights could not include the right to transmit EM radiation through a medium owned by another, since that would conflict with their property right to the medium. So what exactly do you mean by spectrum rights?

  • Published: December 27, 2007 9:04 PM

  • Kevin B
  • greg,

    Having discussed this with another, I believe that by spectrum right you are referring to an easement through the medium. That makes sense.

    As long as it was agreed to beforehand, I say fine. An EM spectrum right sounds like a passage right with or without permission of the medium owner, though.

  • Published: December 27, 2007 10:02 PM

Share
{ 0 comments }

Trademark and Fraud

“Trademark and Fraud,” Mises Economics Blog (Nov. 7, 2007) (archived comments below), and also this comment.

An edited excerpt from my comment in an email discussion:

It seems to me that the primary justification for trademark rights is based on the notion of fraud–that the “infringer” is defrauding his customers by misrepresenting his identity and the source of the goods being sold (see pp. 43-44 of my Against Intellectual Property, pp. 59-63 of Reply to Van Dun: Non-Aggression and Title Transfer, p. 34 of A Theory of Contracts: Binding Promises, Title Transfer, and Inalienability). This would give a cause of action to customers, however, not to the holder of the mark, who is not defrauded.Now just as some a “class representative” is given the right to sue on behalf of the whole class in a class action lawsuit for efficiency/incentive reasons, the more law-and-economics minded types might say that the right to sue for such consumer fraud ought to be transferred from the diffuse group of defrauded customers, to the trademark holder himself. That is, the trademark user can sue infringers, but his right to do this is based on the right of customers’ fraud cause of action.

There are problems, to my mind, with transferring the customers’ rights to the trademark holder, but even if you were to do this, the trademark holder should not be able to sue an infringer unless there is clear fraud of the customer. For example, Rolex could not sue Rolex knock-off companies, because people who buy fake Rolexes for $10 are not being defrauded. They know they are buying a cheap knock-off. But trademark law–both statutory and common law–does give trademark holders the right to sue infringers, regardless of whether there is really fraud to the consumer.

This is my main problem with current trademark law–that in transferring the customer-fraud-based right to trademark holders, the fraud basis is lost over time, as the trademark right is conceived of as a right of the trademark holder. Then it gets broadened and extended, as all IP law does, just like money is continually debased and rights are continually diluted–for example, now trademark law has the horrendous “anti-dilution” cause of action, which does not even require “consumer confusion,” which at least standard trademark infringement claims do.

***

From earlier comments in the same email thread:

Identity theft is usually a form of fraud. But the concept of fraud, like that of IP (as well as “labor” and “creation” etc.) is bandied about imprecisely. To my mind, “fraud” is a type of crime not if it’s merely “being dishonest,” but if it’s one way to gain unconsented-to use of another’s property. Just as sex with a child is effectively rape, because the child has no capacity to consent–no effective consent is given–so the transfer of possession and title to a good based on false representations made by the recipient is one where no effective consent is given. In other words, it’s a way of stealing property; it’s “theft by trick.” If you give me your pig, for my bucket of (good) apples, but my apples are all rotten or fake, then title to the pig does not pass to me, and I know it. My right to have and use your pig is conditioned on my not tricking you about the quality of the apples made in payment. So if you give me bad payment, you know you have my pig without my effective consent. And what is theft or trespass but the use of others’ property without consent?

But what is important to realize here, and in the case of fraud, is that it is the party actually being defrauded who is the victim. If you try to base trademark, or reputation rights, on fraud, it fails. In the case of trademark, the company using the mark is held to be infringed. If it were really based on a fraud claim, then the buyers of fake Louis Vuitton purses are not defrauded (they know they are buying a fake $10 purse), so there would be no trademark infringement; yet there is.

To address some of Professor Reisman’s particular points:

“Is identity theft, about which so many people are concerned, some form of mirage or is it a real phenomenon”

Identity theft describes a real phenomenon, one in which fraud is almost always involved. For example, I lie to a bank and persuade them I am Reisman, and they hand over Reisman’s gold to me. I am in possession of gold I do not own and have no right to control. I have defrauded, and stolen from, at least Reisman or the bank. I see no reason to invent “IP” to describe this.

“If it is a real phenomenon and identities are actually being stolen—as many thousands of victims of identity theft are prepared to swear, and as the banks and credit card companies of these victims also swear—then does it not follow that identities are a form of property? For nothing can be stolen that is not first owned by someone.”

I do not think it implies identity is a form of property. It only implies that you only have a right to use others’ property if they consent to it.

“If identities are a form of property, are they not intellectual property, since they consist entirely of words and symbols, not the physical persons of the people to whom the identities refer?”

I think it is not “intellectual property,” since the property at issue is always real property. The question is who is controlling it. If someone uses it or takes or controls it without the consent of its owner, it’s a form of theft or trespass.

“If individuals do have a property right in their own identities, do they not also have a property right in the words and symbols that uniquely identify their products and services? And, by extension, do not voluntary associations of individuals, such as business partnerships and private corporations have a property right in the words and symbols that uniquely identify them and their products and services? Thus, for example, does not General Motors have a property right in its name and logo and in the names and logos of its various individual products and services? In other words, are not brand names and trademarks legitimate forms of intellectual property?”

If I claim to sell a Mont Blanc pen, but it’s a knockoff, then the buyer is defrauded, unless he knows what is is buying is a fake. The company “Mont Blanc” is not defrauded in either case, as far as I can see.

“Are trademarks and brand names not essential for the operation of free competition, in which better producers benefit from their record of past good work and poorer producers suffer from their record of past poor work?”

It is perhaps essential that people be able to identify themselves, and communicate, but this does not mean there are property rights in identifications or ways of communication (languages or words). I see no reason to believe that absent IP there would be no records or reputations, or no ways to prevent or penalize fraud.

And let’s face it: who publishes public domain works now, under false names? Who claims to be the new author of the Nichomachean Ethics? Any serious businessman wants to establish his own name, not pirate others’.

“I want to say that I recognize that we live in an age of intellectual disintegration, in which philosophers, lawyers, and judges have proved themselves capable of corrupting practically any concept. As a result, it should not be surprising that there are corruptions of the concept of intellectual property and its application. One that comes readily to mind is Ralph Lauren’s ability, according to John Stossel, to appropriate the word “Polo,” to the point that even organizations of actual polo players cannot use the word without being held guilty of violating an alleged intellectual property right of Lauren’s. The truth, of course, if Stossel is right, is that Lauren’s appropriation of the word “Polo” is a violation of their intellectual property rights.”

In my view, this is the inevitable and predictable result of entrusting the state with the production and adminstration of law.

“I’ve deliberately avoided any discussion of patents and copyrights here because my purpose has been simply to establish the legitimacy of the concept of intellectual property as such.”

As far as I can see, there is no legitimacy to this concept. To the extent it’s legitimate, it’s just the application of principles of fraud and property. To the extent it goes beyond these things (e.g., giving the right to sue to the trademark user instead of to the customer) it’s not legitimate.

archived comments

{ 22 comments }

Yancey Ward November 7, 2007 at 2:02 pm

I am looking for Person, is he here yet?

Person November 7, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Person here, reporting for duty.

Stephan_Kinsella: I’ve long held the distinction between a customer vs. producer right to sue about trademark misappropriation is meaningless.

Let’s say for a moment that only customers can sue. So what? Then the trademark owner can send people out to buy the stuff and then say, “Oh wait! I thought I was buying a genuine McDonald’s burger — that sign out front looks so much like the real thing!”

Then he’d have the right to sue, he would get class action status, and we’d be right back to the situation where trademark holders had the right.

Now, about identity theft: I agree with you that on the issues George_Reisman raised, there is no need to reference “intellectual property”. However, personal information privacy is a problem you and all other IP opponents. Specifically: why, under your property rights theory, would it be illegal for me to sell other people your PIN number? Let’s say I hack into your computer and get your passwords. I can understand (for the sake of argument) how that’s trespassing. However, you have always held that even if I obtained information from trespassing, I still have the right to use that information, as long as I made good on the trespassing tort.

In that case, your only libertarian objection to distributing someone’s authentication information (including helping them modify their face, voice, etc.) is that it makes you an “accessory to fraud”. Is that accurate, or is there another reason why you object to giving away people’s PINs?

And then on top of that, what if say, I took pictures of your children in the bathroom? Okay, I have to trespass to do that. But then nothing in your property rights theory prevents me from distributing the pictures. Whatever reason you use, comes down to form of IP.

Don November 7, 2007 at 3:49 pm

“Specifically: why, under your property rights theory, would it be illegal for me to sell other people your PIN number?”

Because that’s part of the bank account, which is someone else’s property.

 

“Let’s say I hack into your computer and get your passwords. I can understand (for the sake of argument) how that’s trespassing.”

And, necessarily, a property rights violation. So you’ve answered your own question. QED.

 

“However, you have always held that even if I obtained information from trespassing, I still have the right to use that information, as long as I made good on the trespassing tort.”

You can, and then how many people will continue to deal with you?

Stephan Kinsella November 7, 2007 at 5:14 pm

Person:

Stephan_Kinsella: I’ve long held the distinction between a customer vs. producer right to sue about trademark misappropriation is meaningless.

Let’s say for a moment that only customers can sue. So what? Then the trademark owner can send people out to buy the stuff and then say, “Oh wait! I thought I was buying a genuine McDonald’s burger — that sign out front looks so much like the real thing!”

Then he’d have the right to sue, he would get class action status, and we’d be right back to the situation where trademark holders had the right.

Except the notion of class action is problematic too. Plus, you’d not be back where you started before–here, the TM owner could sue ONLY for fraud. He could NOT sue a knockoff artist who admits to the customer he’s selling a cheap knockoff.

Now, about identity theft: I agree with you that on the issues George_Reisman raised, there is no need to reference “intellectual property”. However, personal information privacy is a problem you and all other IP opponents. Specifically: why, under your property rights theory, would it be illegal for me to sell other people your PIN number?

Well, let me think. For them to use my PIN number would be akin to theft–it would be unconsented-to access to my property (my bank account, whatver). And you are aiding and abetting them.

Let’s say I hack into your computer and get your passwords. I can understand (for the sake of argument) how that’s trespassing. However, you have always held that even if I obtained information from trespassing, I still have the right to use that information, as long as I made good on the trespassing tort.

I merely say that using information is not a violation of anyone’s rights per se, since information is not owned. But you don’t have the right to commit trespass–whatever means you want to employ. And if you use my PIN to take my money, you are gaining access to my property (money) without my permission–that’s theft.

In that case, your only libertarian objection to distributing someone’s authentication information (including helping them modify their face, voice, etc.) is that it makes you an “accessory to fraud”.

Accessory to conversion/theft/misappropriation, actually.

And then on top of that, what if say, I took pictures of your children in the bathroom? Okay, I have to trespass to do that. But then nothing in your property rights theory prevents me from distributing the pictures. Whatever reason you use, comes down to form of IP.

No, if you did that, I can stop you from distributing the pix, b/c I have hte right to punish you for committing trespass. The punishent could include restricting your actions. BUt if you had already leaked the pix, to third parties, I think there’s nothing I can do to stop them from using or distributing the pix.

Person November 7, 2007 at 5:48 pm

Stephan_Kinsella:Except the notion of class action is problematic too. Plus, you’d not be back where you started before–here, the TM owner could sue ONLY for fraud. He could NOT sue a knockoff artist who admits to the customer he’s selling a cheap knockoff.

So you’re referring to a situation where someone sells a purse with a Gucci logo but says, “ah nah, don’t worry about that, it’s not really Gucci, just an imitatation”? That would be equivalent, in my mind, to me going around with cosmetic surgery to look like you, identifying myself as Stephan_Kinella to everyone, and saying, “Yeah, that Holocaust deal — it’s all a myth.”

Just as you would not like for people act like that while impersonating you, Gucci would not like people to wear stuff that says “this is Gucci” when it’s really not. So if you object to one, you have to object to the other. Does your property rights theory stop me from imitating you like I described above?

Well, let me think. For them to use my PIN number would be akin to theft–it would be unconsented-to access to my property (my bank account, whatver). And you are aiding and abetting them.

Right — just like if I gave them a computer or internet access or a lockpick or a gun …

No, if you did that, I can stop you from distributing the pix, b/c I have hte right to punish you for committing trespass. The punishent could include restricting your actions. BUt if you had already leaked the pix, to third parties, I think there’s nothing I can do to stop them from using or distributing the pix.

First of all, how does the right to punish me for committing trespass give you the right to restrict my transfer of information?

Second, if you really don’t believe this distribution can be legitimately restricted, I don’t know what to tell you. Few people, even libertarians, want to live in that kind of world.

Stephan Kinsella November 7, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Person/Silas:

Stephan_Kinsella:Except the notion of class action is problematic too. Plus, you’d not be back where you started before–here, the TM owner could sue ONLY for fraud. He could NOT sue a knockoff artist who admits to the customer he’s selling a cheap knockoff.

So you’re referring to a situation where someone sells a purse with a Gucci logo but says, “ah nah, don’t worry about that, it’s not really Gucci, just an imitatation”? That would be equivalent, in my mind, to me going around with cosmetic surgery to look like you, identifying myself as Stephan_Kinella to everyone, and saying, “Yeah, that Holocaust deal — it’s all a myth.”

Surely, Silas, you are familiar with the phenomenon of cheap knockoffs. People buy fake $10 LV purses because they are cheap, and they konw they are fake. They are not defrauded. Do you agree?

How about wearing the purse? Is that “defrauding” anyone?

Just as you would not like for people act like that while impersonating you,

Who cares what I “like”?

Gucci would not like people to wear stuff that says “this is Gucci” when it’s really not.

Who cares if they don’t “like” it? So? Blockbuster does not “like it” when a HollyWood Video opens up across the street, either. So what?

So if you object to one, you have to object to the other. Does your property rights theory stop me from imitating you like I described above?

I don’t see how it does, as a general matter.

SK: Well, let me think. For them to use my PIN number would be akin to theft–it would be unconsented-to access to my property (my bank account, whatver). And you are aiding and abetting them.

Right — just like if I gave them a computer or internet access or a lockpick or a gun …

It’s not the point how you aid and abet someone. Just b/c you help them do something does not mean the way you help them is necesarily property, if tha’ts what you’re getting at.

SK: No, if you did that, I can stop you from distributing the pix, b/c I have hte right to punish you for committing trespass. The punishent could include restricting your actions. BUt if you had already leaked the pix, to third parties, I think there’s nothing I can do to stop them from using or distributing the pix.

First of all, how does the right to punish me for committing trespass give you the right to restrict my transfer of information?

I can use my right to punish in a variety of ways. I can say I will wield my right to punish if you release the picture. Think creatively dude.

Second, if you really don’t believe this distribution can be legitimately restricted, I don’t know what to tell you.

Oh, thank goodness.

Few people, even libertarians, want to live in that kind of world.

Nice argument!

David Bratton November 7, 2007 at 9:06 pm

Person:That would be equivalent, in my mind, to me going around with cosmetic surgery to look like you, identifying myself as Stephan_Kinella to everyone, and saying, “Yeah, that Holocaust deal — it’s all a myth.”

What if it was your identical twin?

Robert M. November 8, 2007 at 1:43 pm

David:
Well it depends, who was born first?

Person November 8, 2007 at 1:57 pm

Yeah, that Holocaust deal — it’s all a myth. XD

Kevin B November 8, 2007 at 2:02 pm

*takes off Person costume*

Fooled you!!! (in Dark Helmet voice)

Michael A. Clem November 8, 2007 at 2:02 pm

That would be equivalent, in my mind, to me going around with cosmetic surgery to look like you, identifying myself as Stephan_Kinella to everyone, and saying, “Yeah, that Holocaust deal — it’s all a myth.”
Um, that doesn’t sound equivalent to me. Now suppose someone who looked like Stephan but told people his real name, and that he wasn’t Stephan, then that would be equivalent. See the difference?

George Reisman November 8, 2007 at 5:19 pm

Dear Stephan:

Thank you for your answers to my various questions. Not surprisingly, your answers raise further questions.

1. You appear to reduce the concept of identity theft to fraud, at least insofar as you think that the complaint is legitimate. So let’s deal with cases in which no fraud is involved in the sense of someone’s obtaining someone else’s wealth by means of deception. Let’s deal with cases in which one person assumes another person’s identity for the purpose of maligning him. Thus, for example, imagine that a scholar publishes articles under another scholar’s name, articles which support views that that other detests, signs his name to petitions of a like nature, enrolls him in organizations he despises (at the same time paying the dues for such enrollments), and finally perhaps, arranges to have his target’s name appear on a list of registered sex offenders. Imagine, for example, that Oskar Lange, or some other Communist, did such things to von Mises.

My understanding of your position is that no crime is present in any of these or like instances because no right of the victim—namely an exclusive right to the use of his own name in presenting himself to others—is being violated because no such right exists. Am I correct in my understanding of your position?

2. Now back to wealth being involved in the misrepresentation. My understanding of your position here is that the use of another’s brand name or trademark may represent an instance of fraud against the buyers of the products involved but no crime is committed against the seller.

So let’s imagine two soup companies, “Good Soup” and “Bad Soup.” The company producing “Good Soup” is careful to produce a soup that is always good tasting and untainted. The company producing “Bad Soup” doesn’t mind if an occasional fingernail is found in one of its cans. In a free market, business will tend to be good for “Good Soup” and bad for “Bad Soup.” But as I understand your position, if the producers of “Bad Soup” exactly duplicated the labels affixed to cans of “Good Soup” and affixed them to their own cans of “Bad Soup” and then sold the latter as though it were “Good Soup,” the only parties able to claim the status of victims of a crime would be the buyers of the mislabeled cans of soup.

This strikes me as incredibly unjust. The damage to the buyer of a can of soup is the dollar or two that he paid for it. The damage to the seller may be many millions of dollars in sales revenues that he is prevented from earning because of the damage to his reputation. Indeed, all supporters of the doctrine of opportunity cost must regard his loss in this instance as being fully as real as the loss of millions already in his pocket and thus as being on all fours with his being the victim of fraud. (As you may know, I oppose the doctrine of opportunity cost, and so I would not go this far. I am content to say that it is a deprivation of wealth that the seller otherwise almost certainly would have had, and that, being the result of deliberate deception, it too should be punishable by law.)

3. Continuing with point 2, if it is legal for “Bad Soup” to duplicate the label and all the other possible external identifying characteristics of “Good Soup,” how can there be any basis for claiming fraud against “Bad Soup” in the first place?” On what basis should the buyers expect that only “Good Soup” would be labeled “Good Soup”? Shouldn’t they know that when they buy “Good Soup,” it may just as easily be “Bad Soup” as “Good Soup”? If they have no reasonable expectation of a product being one thing rather than another, how can they claim to be deceived when it is one thing rather than another?

4. You wrote, “It is perhaps essential that people be able to identify themselves, and communicate, but this does not mean there are property rights in identifications or ways of communication (languages or words). I see no reason to believe that absent IP there would be no records or reputations, or no ways to prevent or penalize fraud.”

It is indeed essential that people be able to identify themselves, and communicate. Life in a division of labor-society absolutely requires it. Such a society requires the constant interaction of people and their ability to discriminate between the good and bad performance of others and to reward and penalize accordingly. They can do this only if they know the exclusive, unique identities of those others, so as not to confuse the good with the bad or the better with the worse. This knowledge is secured by the legal recognition of property rights in such things as trademarks and brand names and in one’s own name and identity insofar as one is represented to others.

I invite you to explain how in the absence of the legal recognition of such rights, the necessary discriminations could be made in any effective and economical way. I think I have offered reasons why they could not be.

Sincerely,

George

Kevin B. November 8, 2007 at 5:51 pm

George Reisman,

2. What kind of reputable store stocks its shelves with a new soup that is obviously trying to defraud its customers?

3. Why should customers expect to find soup inside cans labeled, “Soup”?

Peter November 8, 2007 at 6:37 pm

My understanding of your position is that no crime is present in any of these or like instances because no right of the victim—namely an exclusive right to the use of his own name in presenting himself to others—is being violated because no such right exists. Am I correct in my understanding of your position?

I should hope so. Nobody has exclusive rights to “their” name. I know of at least five other people that share my name (well, four now; one died a while back). I can’t stop those people from signing my name on petitions, etc.; what difference does it make if someone who doesn’t share my name signs my name on a petition? (How do you even distinguish between signing my name and signing the name of the moderately-well-known architect who has the same name as me?)

Stephan Kinsella November 9, 2007 at 12:23 am

Reisman:

Thank you for your answers to my various questions. Not surprisingly, your answers raise further questions.

1. You appear to reduce the concept of identity theft to fraud, at least insofar as you think that the complaint is legitimate. So let’s deal with cases in which no fraud is involved in the sense of someone’s obtaining someone else’s wealth by means of deception. Let’s deal with cases in which one person assumes another person’s identity for the purpose of maligning him. Thus, for example, imagine that a scholar publishes articles under another scholar’s name, articles which support views that that other detests, signs his name to petitions of a like nature, enrolls him in organizations he despises (at the same time paying the dues for such enrollments), and finally perhaps, arranges to have his target’s name appear on a list of registered sex offenders. Imagine, for example, that Oskar Lange, or some other Communist, did such things to von Mises.

My understanding of your position is that no crime is present in any of these or like instances because no right of the victim—namely an exclusive right to the use of his own name in presenting himself to others—is being violated because no such right exists. Am I correct in my understanding of your position?

George, I think this is basically correct. I think the reasoning of libertarians like Rothbard who oppose rights in reputations is right, e.g. as Rothbard argues here.

Now back to wealth being involved in the misrepresentation. My understanding of your position here is that the use of another’s brand name or trademark may represent an instance of fraud against the buyers of the products involved but no crime is committed against the seller.

So let’s imagine two soup companies, “Good Soup” and “Bad Soup.” The company producing “Good Soup” is careful to produce a soup that is always good tasting and untainted. The company producing “Bad Soup” doesn’t mind if an occasional fingernail is found in one of its cans. In a free market, business will tend to be good for “Good Soup” and bad for “Bad Soup.” But as I understand your position, if the producers of “Bad Soup” exactly duplicated the labels affixed to cans of “Good Soup” and affixed them to their own cans of “Bad Soup” and then sold the latter as though it were “Good Soup,” the only parties able to claim the status of victims of a crime would be the buyers of the mislabeled cans of soup.

Yes, I think this is basically right.

This strikes me as incredibly unjust. The damage to the buyer of a can of soup is the dollar or two that he paid for it. The damage to the seller may be many millions of dollars in sales revenues that he is prevented from earning because of the damage to his reputation. Indeed, all supporters of the doctrine of opportunity cost must regard his loss in this instance as being fully as real as the loss of millions already in his pocket and thus as being on all fours with his being the victim of fraud. (As you may know, I oppose the doctrine of opportunity cost, and so I would not go this far. I am content to say that it is a deprivation of wealth that the seller otherwise almost certainly would have had, and that, being the result of deliberate deception, it too should be punishable by law.)

I understand your position here, but your position appears a bit question begging. Whether it’s unjust or not, in the political sense, depends on whether there is a property right, which is the question. Merely causing “damage” is not enough; with a loose enough conception of “cause damage”, the HollyWood Video that moves in across the street from a BlockBuster, thus “taking” some of “its” business, also “causes damage”–but this is entirely rightful. The reason is the Hollywood Video is not entitled to be patronized by customers. Likewise, I would argue that Good Soup is not entitled to have any of its customers buy soup from it. That is up to the customers. If the customers choose, for *whatever reason*, not to buy from Good Soup, this does not violate any property right of Good Soup. This is so even if the reason is that the customers choose to rely on the false information spread by Bad Soup. At most, it is the customers who have been harmed (defrauded), but since Good Soup is not entitled to their purchase of its soup in the first place, I do not see how its rights are violated if the customers do not make the purchase.

Let’s take a simple, but stark, example. I murder some lady on her way to the store, where she was planning to buy a can of Good Soup’s soup. Now, the purchase does not take place. Did I “damage” Good Soup by murdering the would-be customer? I think not; my act of wrong is fully exhausted by the crime against the victim. It’s not as if Good Soup is married to the victim and has some separate right of recovery for my crime against her. It’s just a crime against victim.

Continuing with point 2, if it is legal for “Bad Soup” to duplicate the label and all the other possible external identifying characteristics of “Good Soup,” how can there be any basis for claiming fraud against “Bad Soup” in the first place?” On what basis should the buyers expect that only “Good Soup” would be labeled “Good Soup”? Shouldn’t they know that when they buy “Good Soup,” it may just as easily be “Bad Soup” as “Good Soup”? If they have no reasonable expectation of a product being one thing rather than another, how can they claim to be deceived when it is one thing rather than another?

I understand this critique; it is basically the point made by Van Dun in Against Libertarian Legalism: A Comment on Kinsella and Block — see, e.g., pp. 68-70. I already replied to this–see pp. 59-63, in particular p. 62-63 of Reply to Van Dun: Non-Aggression and Title Transfer. As I wrote there:

“Van Dun might argue that it is not possible to identify the R-Burger chain if it does not have a trademark right, and that the L-Burger chain can just rename itself Ã’R-BurgersÓ too, so that when the customer asks for an R-Burger ( i.e., conditions the title transfer to the money on it being made and sold by R-Burger), he is actually getting one. He is just getting it from the second R-Burger company, not from the first R-Burger company.

“However, this response would be easy to overcome. It need only be possible for the customer to adequately identify what the condition is. Language is not infinitely malleable, and communication is (undeniably) possible. If pressed, the customer could specify that the purchase is conditioned on the current store he is in being owned by the same R-Burger company first started at such and such date and address, and so on. There is no reason it would be impossible to identify a given vendor without traditional trademark law, just as it is not impossible to identify fellow humans, despite the fact that we do not usually have trademarks on our names (in fact, humans often have identical names, e.g., John Smith).

“Van Dun’s implicit assumption here is really that communication and identification of individuals or entities is literally impossible in the absence of trademark rights. This is obviously absurd.”

Continuing with Reisman’s comments:

You wrote, “It is perhaps essential that people be able to identify themselves, and communicate, but this does not mean there are property rights in identifications or ways of communication (languages or words). I see no reason to believe that absent IP there would be no records or reputations, or no ways to prevent or penalize fraud.”

It is indeed essential that people be able to identify themselves, and communicate. Life in a division of labor-society absolutely requires it. Such a society requires the constant interaction of people and their ability to discriminate between the good and bad performance of others and to reward and penalize accordingly. They can do this only if they know the exclusive, unique identities of those others, so as not to confuse the good with the bad or the better with the worse.

I think this is basically correct, to this point.

This knowledge is secured by the legal recognition of property rights in such things as trademarks and brand names and in one’s own name and identity insofar as one is represented to others.

Yes, it can be protected this way. The question is whether this is justified, or even necessary. I do not think “communication” requires a state-enforced set of reputation and trademark rights.

I invite you to explain how in the absence of the legal recognition of such rights, the necessary discriminations could be made in any effective and economical way. I think I have offered reasons why they could not be.

For one, as noted previously, the consumer himself can sue for fraud, thus penalizing such activity. And I think, as indicated above, and as your comments support, that the view that trademark/reputation rights are required, basically implies that without such rights, communication is impossible. This seems to be a clearly false claim. Consider all the public domain works available now, works with no trademark, reputation rights, or copyright–say, the works of Plato or Aristotle. You are free to sell your new book under the name of “Aristotle”, if you wish; you are free to sell a duplicate of the Nichomachean Ethics under your own name, if you wish. Why does no one do this? I think the reason is because serious people who want to do things with their lives do not want to be viewed as jokes. Same with businessmen: if I start a restaurant I want it to be mine, I do not want to call it McDonald’s. A few may get away with this, and would be loooked on as shady, fly-by-night operators, and sued by customers to boot. Who would lend money, or invest money in, a proposed business which involves knocking off, say, McDonald’s restaurants? If it’s going to be a real consumer fraud, then no one would invest in this –it would be doomed to be sued to death for fraud.

Fred Mann November 9, 2007 at 12:46 am

George,
George,
In an world without trademarks, the “Good Soup” company could easily protect itself by saying on the label, “Produced in Factory X by Mr. Y, — Guaranteed fingernail-free since ’93″, or whatever. Anyone copying this would be committing fraud. Also, as Kevin B. suggested, stores could specialize in stocking “originals”, and be very careful about the source of their purchases. These types of product differentiations would be adopted almost immediately and universally upon the repeal of IP laws, since the copying of differentiation techniques would not be forbidden, and the wisdom of doing so would be obvious. Currently, these types of differentiations/divulgences are suppressed to some degree — possibly to our detriment.
The key, of course, would be to incorporate information that is specific enough to prevent copycats, but not so specific as to divulge trade secrets.
One could conceivably differentiate oneself/one’s personal reputation in similar ways — i.e. George Reisman b. 1950 in CO to Harry and Elaine blah, blah, blah. – and might even become common practice in situations where this approach is generally warranted.

Fred Mann November 9, 2007 at 12:54 am

George,
(only one “George” this time). Sorry about the slight overlap between me and Kinsella. I didn’t refresh the page before posting. I’m also sorry that I didn’t post first and that you had to read through his long and boring reply before getting to my succinct nuggets of wisdom.

Fred Mann November 9, 2007 at 3:46 pm

Just kidding, by the way. I’m a huge Kinsella fan. I have his poster in my bedroom.

Stephan Kinsella November 9, 2007 at 4:23 pm

Wladimir Kraus writes:

Putting aside the problem of consequences/utility for the moment, the fundamental question, as it appears to me, is whether the existence of rights to intellectual property constitutes violation of legitimate interests, or rights, of other people. If it were not so, there would indeed exist no grounds to oppose them.

For example, so-called “positive” rights to health care or education ultimately come into conflict with so-called “negative” rights of those who will be forced to provide them. The problem of political philosophy is to establish which one of the two constitutes the actual, legitimate, true rights and which, consequently, must be viewed as a mere violation of true rights.

While I would argue that there’s a conflict between “positive” rights of individual A and “negative” rights of individual B, no conflict exists between “negative” rights of A and B.

For example, the fact that I have a right to my physical body and to products of my labor, directly or via voluntary exchange, does not violate or diminish any rights of other people. The principle is nicely stated in the maxim that if the rational self-interest is the basis of social interactions no conflicts of interests are involved. Indeed, enormous gains to all are to be expected if negative rights of individuals are observed consistently.

Applied to the case of IP rights, it follows that if and only if their inherent harmful nature can be established, then and only then their existence may be condemned.

I believe that at the root of present controversy stand two opposing theories of property rights: the “scarcity” based theory of property as developed by Rothbard, Hoppe et al., on the one hand, and Ayn Rand’s, for lack of a better word, “creationist” theory of property rights, on the other.

It appears that the problem of IP rights is a particularly good instance to test each of the two theories because this particular problem highlights the differences so sharply.

The fundamental question is what is the source of rights? Is it mere scarcity of resources and therefore the need to avoid conflicts that supposedly arise from the fact of scarcity, or is the source rather the recognition of the fact that in order to survive and achieve happiness in the context of interpersonal relationships, i.e. society, man needs knowledge that would tell him what is he to do if his goal is to survive and achieve happiness in society.

I believe that Ayn Rand’s derivation of the concept of right is much more in accordance with the facts of reality and man’s requirements to survive and achieve happiness than the alternative is.

In regards to IP, therefore, the first question we need to answer is whether IP rights belong to the broad category of “positive” or to the category “negative” rights, and why.

Any comments?

Well, let me say that in a way I agree–one source of disagreement lies in differences over whether rights come from scarcity, or from “creation” (Rand’s “man’s needs” type of argument).

I’ve tried to show that it’s a mistake to think of creation as a source of ownership of property. Often it’s said that you can find/appropriate something, create it, or buy/receive it from a previous owner. But “creation” is not really a third way of acquiring ownership. In fact, it’s neither necessary nor sufficient. Appropriation of unowned goods, and contractual acquisition of goods from previous owners, are the only ways to acquire property rights in things. I discuss this in detail in the section “Creation vs. Scarcity” et pass. of Against Intellectual Property. Also, note that if you say that we have property rights to “things we create,” you indeed open the door to a horrible pandora’s box of things that people have monopolistic rights to, which would entangle and ensnare all use of scarce resources, thus leading to the entire human race dying out. See, e.g., the examples of Galambos and Schulman, noted in my article, who advocate protection of a very broad range of mentally “created” patterns, ideas, “logos,” what have you.

Tibor Machan has alluded to this in some of his writings, where he basically wants to say that there are all kinds of “things” that “exist”–poems, trucks, etc.–and since “The tangible-intangible distinction is not a good one for what can and cannot be owned”, then we need to focus on “intentionality”–things we intentionally create or produce, whether they be “tangible” or “intangible”–indeed, intangible things like poems, computer games/programs, novels, songs, arrangements, etc. are more completely “intentional” and “created” than are tangible goods. I.e., Machan’s theory seems to be that any “ontological type of thing” that we can identify, and that was intentionally created or produced by man, is owned by man. For more on this, see: New Working Paper: Machan on IP; also see the criticism and discussion in the comments (e.g., those of Carl Johan Petrus Ridenfeldt at November 30, 2006 4:59 PM); see also Owning Thoughts and Labor and related comment thread; and the comments in The Copyright/Baseball Analogy. I think if you review the criticisms of Machan’s view here (and my discussion of “Creation v. Scarcity” in my longer paper noted above), you’ll begin to see the magnitude of problems that accompany looking at property in this way.

male breast enhancement, transvestite breasts March 29, 2011 at 5:23 pm

Several adult males all over the globe dream of acquiring beautiful, feminine breasts or tranvestite bosoms. Male breast enhancement never was this simple thanks to this revolutionary male breast enlargement product.

male breast enhancement, transvestite breasts March 29, 2011 at 5:25 pm

Several gentleman all over the globe dream of getting attractive, full, womanly bosoms or tranvestite breasts. Male breast enhancement never was this uncomplicated thanks to this modern male breast enlargement product.

male breast enhancement, transvestite breasts March 29, 2011 at 5:26 pm

Many men all over the planet dream of obtaining attractive, feminine bosoms or tranvestite breasts. Male breast enhancement never was this available thanks to this fresh male breast enlargement product.

Comments on this entry are closed.

{ 2 trackbacks }

Share
{ 2 comments }

Pilon on Patents

From Mises blog:

 

Pilon on Patents

TAGS Free MarketsPolitical Theory

09/28/2007

I blogged elsewhere the “Palmer on Patents” post below a couple years ago. In the post, I mention a minor scandal back in 2003, when some of Cato’s scholars (Doug Bandow and Michael Krauss) came out in favor of restrictions on free trade based on the notion that reimportation of drugs would allow consumers to avoid some of the monopoly price charged due to the US patent system. Cato’s adjunct scholar (and utilitarian) Richard Epstein has also argued in favor of patents, especially in the field of pharmaceuticals, and on this ground also opposed reimportation. Thus, as I had noted previously, support for intellectual property rightsleads once again to the undermining of genuine private property rights, such as the right to trade.

The call for restrictions on free trade caused an outcry in the libertarian community, prompting Ed Crane and Roger Pilon to meekly disavow1 Bandow’s and Epstein’s protectionism. As I noted previously, it was interesting that this piece apparently endorses ‘the need for drug patents to encourage R&D’. Once again, I am struck that Pilon could author such words. How could Pilon endorse such a utilitarian, wealth-maximization approach to policy, given his principled, deontological, non-utilitarian, rights-based libertarianism? (as evidenced in his 1979 Georgia Law Review article ‘Ordering Rights Consistently: Or What We Do and Do Not Have Rights To’ and his 1979 University of Chicago Ph.D. dissertation, ‘A Theory of Rights: Toward Limited Government.’)

Palmer on Patents

Tom Palmer’s recent comments about patents are interesting in view of his previous publications about intellectual property.

First, around 15 years ago, Palmer published two law review articles (Intellectual Property: A Non-Posnerian Law And Economics Approach and Are Patents And Copyrights Morally Justified? The Philosophy Of Property Rights And Ideal Objects) arguing against patent and copyright and also critiquing the wealth-maximization ‘law and economics’ approach of Richard Posner. Note that he opposed patents on principled grounds, and rejected the wealth-maximization approach. E.g., as he noted in the first article (p. 303),

A jurisprudence that claims to be based on “law and economics” but that would constructively assign or rearrange rights as part of a strategy to achieve some pre-determined outcome (maximization of utility or of wealth, for example) overlooks the analogy between the spontaneous order of the market and the spontaneous order of a legal system.

I.e., according to Palmer, Posner’s wealth-maximization framework would lead to the rearranging of property rights to try to maximize wealth. Something he presumably opposes.

Anyhoo, back in 2003 some of Cato’s scholars (Doug Bandow and Michael Krauss) came out in favor ofrestrictions on free trade based on the notion that reimportation of drugs would allow consumers to avoid some of the monopoly price charged due to the US patent system. Cato’s adjunct scholar (and utilitarian) Richard Epstein has also argued in favor of patents, especially in the field of pharmaceuticals, and on this ground also opposed reimportation.  Thus, as I have noted previously, support for intellectual property rightsleads once again to the undermining of genuine private property rights, such as the right to trade.

This call for restrictions on free trade caused an outcry in the libertarian community, prompting Ed Crane and Roger Pilon to meekly disavow Bandow’s and Epstein’s protectionism. Interesting, this piece apparently endorses ‘the need for drug patents to encourage R&D’–this apparent endorsement of a utilitarian, wealth-maximization approach to policy seems to conflict with Pilon’s principled, deontological, non-utilitarian, rights-based libertarianism–as shown in his 1979 Georgia Law Review article ‘Ordering Rights Consistently: Or What We Do and Do Not Have Rights To’ and his 1979 University of Chicago Ph.D. dissertation, ‘A Theory of Rights: Toward Limited Government.’

In recent posts Palmer appears to bend over backward to soften his previous principled anti-patent stance so that he does not conflict with other pro-patent Catoites–apparently now including Krauss, Bandow, Epstein, Crane, and Pilon. Writes Palmer:

I’ve been critical of the patent system in the past. Mr. Brady has given me a quiz about whether I conform to his vision of right-thought or have drifted further into thought crime[,] as he defines it. I am not a fan of the patent system and think we could generally live well without it. (I’ve posted a few articles on my web site indicating why.) The one exception to that general hostility to patents, as I have suggested elsewhere, is the system of patents for chemicals, notably pharmaceuticals. Because chemical compounds are relatively easy to reverse-engineer and can be successfully marketed independently of their role in a larger product (unlike, say, innovations in jet engine design, which often are only valuable as part of a kind of engine), patents may indeed generate incentives for innovation that greatly improve human welfare. That’s an argument for them. Since the innovation has the characterstics of public goods (costly to exclude and non-rivalrous in consumption, the latter being the relevant feature here), a good profit maximization strategy ought to be price discrimination, by which those who can pay more do so and others pay less.

Re the ‘public goods comment–note in the ‘Non-Posnerian’ above piece Palmer’s sensible criticisms (pp. 284-85) of the coherence of the very notion of public goods.  As for the ‘suggested elsewhere’ comment, he must be referring to this post, where he writes:

Pharmaceuticals and chemicals offer undoubtedly the best cases for patent protection on utilitarian grounds. In my Hamline Law Review article …, p. 301, I quoted from a study by Edwin Mansfield from the American Economic Review in which he pointed out that ‘patent protection was judged to be essential for the development or introduction of one-third or more of the inventions during 1981-1983 in only 2 industries — pharmaceuticals and chemicals.’ That seems not to have changed. The reason is pretty easy to understand: reverse-engineering in the case of chemicals (which broadly includes pharmaceuticals) is quite easy. In the case of pharmaceuticals, at least, R&D costs are very high and would still be high even without some of the very costly efficacy tests imposed by the Food and Drug Administration. Furthermore, the benefits of new pharmaceuticals are enormous. If one were to make a case for patent law, that’s the strongest industry for which to make it.

Palmer has elsewhere rejected the wealth-maximization approach, so what does it matter that pharmaceuticals is the ‘best case’ that can be made under this approach? Why does he say the case of patents for pharmaceuticals is ‘one exception to‘ his previous ‘general hostility to patents,’ when this case is utilitarian and wealth-maximization based, an approach he has rejected (and presumably he still maintains that even under the wealth-maximization approach the case fails).

Note how snippy he is to Mark Brady’s questions to him about patents–’Mr. Brady has given me a quiz about whether I conform to his vision of right-thought or have drifted further into thought crime[,] as he defines it.’ It is as if Palmer is annoyed that in response to his seemingly pro-patent comments, his previous principled and anti-patent writings are being waved in his face. Given so many of his colleagues’ utilitarian endorsement of patents, is Palmer now embarrassed by his previous opposition to both? Is he trying to say that he is still principled, and anti-patent, but that the dominant pro-patent, utilitarian approach of prominent Catoites is ‘respectable’–or that he has (sort of?) softened his ‘hostility’ to this approach? It wouldn’t be the first time Palmer’s views have ‘evolved‘.

Archived comments:

{ 7 comments }

Max September 29, 2007 at 6:00 am

That all sounds very nice and principled. However,

the development of new drugs costs on average $ 200,000,000. Without a patent, anybody is able to copy and sell the drug without the costs of investment. Who is willing to invest hundred millions of dollars for developing a new drug without a chance for profits? And in consequence, how many people are going to die because medical treatments are lacking for certain diseases?

David C September 29, 2007 at 4:26 pm

Max, new drugs cost millions of dollars to develop precisely because of FDA regulations, and because patents make it impossible for researchers to collaborate without placing incredible risks on the company that sponsors them. (eg, a competitor could get a patent first and lock them out) This forces all pharmaceutical R&D to reinvent the wheel, and creates insane barriers to entry for the entire industry as a whole. In addition, drug patents have a nifty side effect of causing the industry to shun alternative cures and medicine. Since the companies have a vested interest in their patent monopoly, that also means that they must be willing to spend large amounts of money and resources to promote it (eg marketing costs).

Besides, forbidding 15 million people in Africa who are dying of AIDS from making their own generics in the name of patent monopolies is genocidal and unforgivable. Not to mention, millions of seniors in the US who are exposed to “cures” with harsh chemical side effects that have no logical reason to be there accept for the patentability of it. Those mega pharma lawsuits you hear about every few years? There’s a reason for that. “Nice and principled” indeed.

Edgar729 September 30, 2007 at 9:31 pm

Max,

Here is a write up by a value investor who has made 29% returns for 7 years by investing in companies with great fundementals. One of those companies is an Indian pharmecuetical company that has an annual R&D budget of something like 30 million dollars. Yet! They have more drugs in the pipeline than american pharmecuetical companies, their labs are up to FDA standards (for what thats worth, and thier drugs are in american markets. They are also traded at the NYSE.

The average markup on every drug is something absurd (when I find the figure I will post it). This company is a “great” company just becaus they are allowed to create drugs in a less regulated market. They produce many times the drugs of Big Pharma here in the U.S. and their drugs are of comprable quality if not greater.

Remove the regulations, patent protections, and everything else and there will be more drugs to serve more needs than ever before and at incredibly low prices.

God bless! Ron Paul 2008!

BTW, this company seems to merit a fuller description and post in Mises, right?

Edgar729 September 30, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Brock October 1, 2007 at 12:02 pm

The Cato Institute’s libertarian advocacy is based on supporting the corporate power structure and not on a pro-freedon ethical system? How absolutely shocking.

Robert M. October 1, 2007 at 5:16 pm

David: “Besides, forbidding 15 million people in Africa who are dying of AIDS from making their own generics in the name of patent monopolies is genocidal and unforgivable.”

Sounds like a utilitarian arguement to me.

“Not to mention, millions of seniors in the US who are exposed to “cures” with harsh chemical side effects that have no logical reason to be there accept for the patentability of it.”

If you believe in the market, then if people didn’t like the side effects, or had heard of bad side effects, they would take an alternative. Oh, wait, the reason that they take those medicines is because they actually work and there is nothing else (patented or not) that works as well. Therefore if there is nothing else like it, there is no need to add any patentability to it.

Good for the Indian company to make huge profits off of selling generic drugs to new markets and using those profits to fund research for drugs to help common conditions. Now for Econ 101: When other people see how much they are making, they will start their own generics, therefore driving the price down. This will eventually lead to a profit-less industry with no left over money to research even common diseases, much less rare ones.

We all agree that the FDA should be done away with, but claiming that all of the costs of research come from the FDA is extremely naive. There is no way that selling a few drugs before the generic comes out will cover all of the overhead that is unavoidable with research.

DC October 3, 2007 at 9:14 am

Robert M writes:

Good for the Indian company to make huge profits off of selling generic drugs to new markets and using those profits to fund research for drugs to help common conditions. Now for Econ 101: When other people see how much they are making, they will start their own generics, therefore driving the price down. This will eventually lead to a profit-less industry with no left over money to research even common diseases, much less rare ones.

You must be talking about Econ 101 from a state university, since that description is falsified by just about every industry out there. Industries don’t become “profit-less” over time, unless they are superseded by something better or the government steps in. There are fewer profits to be made as more people flock to the industry trying to make a buck. . .but this has the net effect of increasing innovation and productivity, not decreasing it. (I think they admit even that in state schools.)

Your implicit argument that artificial scarcity is needed in the drug industry so that people will do what is “best” (and what they otherwise wouldn’t do) is strangely familiar. . .

http://jim.com/econ/chap07p1.html

Also, you wrote this in response to someone else’s argument:

“Besides, forbidding 15 million people in Africa who are dying of AIDS from making their own generics in the name of patent monopolies is genocidal and unforgivable.”

Sounds like a utilitarian arguement to me.

No, sounds like a moral argument to me. Were you equating ‘using a number in the argument’ with ‘utilitarianism’?

Update: see also Cato vs. Public Citizen on IP and the TPP

  1. Cato Tugs Stray Back Onto the Reservation; Epstein on reimportation.  [↩]
Share
{ 3 comments }

What are the Costs of the Patent System? (Mises, 2007)

From Mises Blog.

Update: See “Costs of the Patent System Revisited”

What are the Costs of the Patent System?

09/27/2007

I’m trying to find out if there are any recent estimates as to the cost of the patent system–e.g., what the annual dollar cost is in the US that would not be borne if not for the patent system.

As I’ve noted before (see There’s No Such Thing As A Free Patent), the standard utilitarian rationale for the patent system is that patent law encourages extra innovation; this innovation presumably is valuable. And the defenders of patent assume that the value of this extra innovation is clearly greater than the cost of the system.

Yet even if we assume the utilitarian framework for judging the merits of having a patent system–and ignore the economic and moral problems with utilitarianism–it’s obvious that the cost of the patent system is not trivial.

For example, I believe about 400,000 patent applications are filed per year in the US, of late. Assuming a ballpark cost of $15k (patent attorney fees, filing fees, prosecution costs for previously filed applications), we have $6 billion right there. However, patent prosecution costs are a little tricky here because many applications are continuing applications and so some of the prosecution cost has already been expended on the parent. So another way to do this (suggested to me by Meurer) is to find a lower bound to these costs by multiplying $15K or maybe $20K by the number issued patents rather than the number applied for. The number of utility patents alone issued in 2006 is about 174,000. Using this method, and $20k as the average cost, we get $3.5 billion. Let’s split the difference and call it $4.5 billion.

 

What other costs are there? I suppose we could count the entire revenue of the PTO, but that would probably be double counting. And patent attorney salaries are already implicitly counted in this cost (patent prosecutors, not litigators).

Next, we have royalties paid for patent licenses. I have no idea what the total amount of royalty payments equals, but given that IBM alone gets about $1.3 billion a year from licensing fees, let’s be conservative and halve this (because some of it may be exaggeration; some may be for trade secrets, etc.), and then multiply this by ten (assuming IBM is no more than 1/10 of all patent license fees in the entire US economy); now we have $6.5 billion more. Our subtotal is $11 billion.

Then we have patent litigation costs. It’s well known that it can easily cost a million dollars or more to defend a patent lawsuit. Bessen & Meuer, if I read their paper correctly, estimate $16 billion in patent litigation costs in 1999; we can assume comparable costs now (again, conservative estimate, since they are probably higher — Bessen’s view (email to me) is the figure is only for public firms [and in 1992 dollars?] … since 1999 the rate of litigation has increased substantially, so current number are probably quite a bit higher”.) So we’ll use $20 billion, conservatively. And that’s not counting crazy damage awards, like the $100 or $1billlion awards occasionally handed out. Okay, now we have $20 billion from patent lawsuits. This might double-count licensing fees a bit, so let’s knock it to $15 billion to be safe. That’s $26 billion so far.

What else. There are lots of other costs, but they are too hard to measure, or even estimate with any certainty, along the lines of what is seen–and not seen. We can never know the value of some innovations that would have been produced if the threat of patents had not dissuaded the potential innovator from entering the field. It’s got to be in the billions. Let’s say $2 billion, being conservative. Okay, we’re up to $28 billion so far. I have a strong sense that this is a radical underestimate, but let’s go with it for now.

Julio Cole notes also that “The existence of patents also induces wasteful expenditure of resources by competitors trying to “invent around the patent,” i.e., to develop competing products that are sufficiently differentiated so as not to infringe on an existing patent.” Let’s give this another $5 billion. $31 billion so far.

Also, because the patent system rewards the more practical type of inventions that can be patented, R&D dollars are skewed toward this, and away from other types of research, or other investments or uses of the funds. So if the billions spent on patent filings, royalties, and defense costs were instead invested or spent on more fundamental R&D, surely this would reap valuable dividends. Let’s say $10 billion worth as another ballpark (assuming the $31 billion is invested, etc., yielding a decent return). So now we have $41 billion as our cost.

I’m sure there are others, so this is an underestimate, maybe by an order of magnitude.

I’m looking for some studies that ballpark it like this. Anyone aware of any such studies? Anything obvious and big I’m leaving out? My Mises blog post Revisiting Some Problems with Patents lists several studies on the effects of the patent system on innovation, but not sure if any of them look at it from this perspective of come up with any conclusions formatted in this way.

BTW, this cost number would have to be compared to the value of the marginal innovations stimulated by the patent system. Moreover, this number needs to be first discounted. Why? Let’s assume the patent system stimulates an extra amount of innovation in a given year that has a value of $20 billion. We can’t count all of this as a gain, since most scientific and engineering innovations will happen sooner or later. The patent system merely encourages them to happen sooner. So let’s assume that 75% of patent-stimulated innovation would have happened eventually, within 10 years of when it did occur. So we value 75% of the $20 billion only at the time value of that amount for 10 years.

These are all estimates so let me do a quick back of the envelope and say that we have $5 billion plus time value of getting $15 billion of value 10 years earlier. What’s this–maybe $5 billion plus another $5 billion, at most? So here we have a grand total of $10 billlion of gain. Compared to $41 billion cost. The patent system loses by $31 billion a year.

And it’s possible that there is no gain at all, or even negative gain. Which means the system is pure cost.

Let me note the conclusion of Bessen & Meurer, in the draft ch. 1 of their forthcoming book:

The results … show that chemical and pharmaceutical firms earn far more from their patents than they lose to litigation. But for other firms, Figure 1.1B tells a simple but dramatic story: during the 1980s, these firms may have, at best, broken even from patents, but beginning in the mid-1990s, litigation costs exploded. By almost any interpretation, the US patent system could not be providing overall positive incentives for these US public firms by the end of the 1990s. The risk of patent litigation that firms faced in their capacity as technology adopters simply outstripped the profits that they made by virtue of owning patents. A firm looking to invest in an innovative technology during the late 1990s, taking this risk into account, would expect the net impact of patents to reduce the profits from innovation rather than to increase them. Moreover, preliminary data for more recent years suggest that this problem has gotten worse since 1999.

Note that patents do provide profits for their owners, so it makes sense for firms to get them. But taking the effect of other owners’ patents into account, including the risk of litigation, the average public firm outside the chemical and pharmaceutical industries would be better off if patents did not exist.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Update: See Michele Boldrin & David K. Levine, Growth and Intellectual Property (draft). In this paper, Boldrin & Levine do a calculation, in the context of a model in which patents are good for innovation (in fact, an extreme version: no innovation at all without at least some patents). From an email by Boldrin to me, 9/28/07: “Then we compute what a ‘benevolent dictator’ would consider to be the socially optimal degree of patent protection. By assumption all the transaction/legal costs you are looking at are assumed away here. Then we go on and use data to figure out if the current level of IP protection in different industries/countries is too high or too low. We find it is too high, sometimes by orders of magnitude.” The paper assumes “a standard model in which IP protection is socially beneficial” (even though they reject the “standard model” and argue elsewhere “that IP is not generally socially beneficial”). Even assuming a world in which IP is “socially beneficial,” they conclude that

  • The elasticity of total monopoly revenue is increasing, hence the term of IP protection should decrease over time as the market size increases. Our best estimate, given the historical growth rate of market size, is that IP protection terms should decrease of about two months per year.
  • Current copyright and patent terms are equivalent to complete monopoly protection for the full economic life of new goods, and are dramatically higher than optimal ones, sometime by two orders of magnitude.
  • On the basis of the available evidence, our best estimate of the length of optimal copyright term is about one year, and that of patents is about seven to thirteen years.

Archived Comments:

Comments (28)

  • G

    While I don’t like the idea of IP at all, I do think that economists against IP need to show why IP is inferior (from an economic standpoint, not a moral one) to the lack of IP. Economists are big on internalizing costs, and I just can’t see any way to internalize the costs of easily replicated, but expensive to research, goods and capital.

    In the increasingly wired and global economy, I don’t think IP is going to be terribly enforceable for long. But that still doesn’t disprove the central ideas of IP, which is that the cost of goods and services should always reflect all the costs of producing those goods and services, and that externalized costs should be eliminated.

    Published: September 27, 2007 12:53 AM

  • Chris Heath

    I think the patent system is good for the inventors and developers who wont spend on R&D if they aren’t allowed to patent their product. Whoever if the product is a life saving medicine that is priced beyond joe averages afford ability then there are conscience issues.

    Published: September 27, 2007 3:52 AM

  • Person

    You’re too easy Stephan. Let me do a rewrite:

    ***

    I’m trying to find out if there are any recent estimates as to the cost of the property title system–e.g., what the annual dollar cost is in the US that would not be borne if not for the property title system.

    As I’ve noted before, the standard utilitarian rationale for the property title system is that property title law encourages extra production; this product presumably is valuable. And the defenders of property system assume that the value of this extra innovation is clearly greater than the cost of the system.

    Yet even if we assume the utilitarian framework for judging the merits of having a property title system–and ignore the economic and moral problems with utilitarianism–it’s obvious that the cost of the property title system is not trivial.

    For example, I believe about 400,000 property title applications are filed per year in the US, of late. Assuming a ballpark cost of $15k (property title registration fees, patrolling costs, prosecution costs for previously filed applications), we have $6 billion right there.
    What other costs are there? I suppose we could count the entire revenue of law enforcement, but that would probably be double counting. And property attorney salaries are already implicitly counted in this cost (property title prosecutors, not litigators).

    Next, we have rental fees paid for property title licenses. I have no idea what the total amount of rental payments equals, but given that the Simon Group alone gets about $1.3 billion a year from renting mall space, let’s just quadruple it; reasonable (probably conservative) guess. So we now have $5 billion more.

    Then we have property title litigation costs. It’s well known that it can easily cost a million dollars or more to defend a property title lawsuit. I’m not sure how many are fought each year, but it’s got to be in the hundreds. So let’s say 500 of them, or $500 million. And that’s not counting crazy damage awards, like the $100 or $1billlion awards occasionally handed out. So let’s say another $500 million. Okay, now we have a billion from property title lawsuits.
    What else. There are lots of other costs, but they are too hard to measure, or even estimate with any certainty, along the lines of what is seen–and not seen. We can never know the value of some economic activity that would have happened if the threat of property titles had not dissuaded the potential innovator from entering the field. It’s got to be in the billions. Let’s say $2 billion, being conservative. Okay, we’re up to $14 billion so far. I have a strong sense that this is a radical underestimate, but let’s go with it for now.

    Julio Cole notes also that “The existence of property titles also induces wasteful expenditure of resources by competitors trying to “produce around the property title,” i.e., to develop competing products that don’t use things to which they don’t have a title.” Let’s give this another $5 billion. $19 billion so far.
    Also, because the property title system rewards the more practical type of production that requires extensive defense, capital is skewed toward this, and away from other types of investment, or other uses of the funds. So if the billions spent on property title filings, rentals, and defense costs were instead invested or spent on more versatile production, surely this would reap valuable dividends. Let’s say $25 billion worth as another ballpark (assuming the $19 billion is invested, etc., yielding a decent return). So now we have $44 billion as our cost.
    I’m sure there are others, so this is an underestimate, maybe by an order of magnitude.
    I’m looking for some studies that ballpark it like this. Anyone aware of any such studies? Anything obvious and big I’m leaving out? My Mises blog post Revisiting Some Problems with property titles lists several studies on the effects of the property title system on innovation, but not sure if any of them look at it from this perspective of come up with any conclusions formatted in this way.

    BTW, this cost number would have to be compared to the value of the marginal production stimulated by the property title system. Moreover, this number needs to be first discounted. Why? Let’s assume the property title system stimulates an extra amount of production in a given year that has a value of $20 billion. We can’t count all of this as a gain, since most production will happen sooner or later. The property title system merely encourages them to happen sooner. So let’s assume that 75% of property title-stimulated innovation would have happened eventually, within 10 years of when it did occur. So we value 75% of the $20 billion only at the time value of that amount for 10 years. These are all estimates so let me do a quick back of the envelope and say that we have $5 billion plus time value of getting $15 billion of value 10 years earlier. What’s this–maybe $5 billion plus another $5 billion, at most? So here we have a grant total of $5 billlion of gain. Compared to $44 billion cost. The property title system loses by $39 billion a year.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?

    Published: September 27, 2007 9:19 AM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Person, First off, property rights are a “natural” right and don’t need to be defended on utilitarian or wealth-maximization grounds. While patents are defended precisely on this ground. Jefferson, the drafter of the Declaration, and himself an inventor and also the first PTO examiner, had grave doubts about establishing this artificial government monopoly rights for mere utilitarian reasons. At the time the Constitution was ratified, Jefferson was in Paris as U.S. Ambassador to France, and thus was not in attendance at the Convention. He expressed reservations concerning the patent provision in correspondence with James Madison, the Constitution’s chief architect. He was not really an opponent of patents, but he was a skeptic. He believed that patents encourage invention and thus can be for the “benefit of society,” but he had reservations that if patents were extended too long or were too readily granted, the costs to society would outweigh the benefits.

    As he wrote, long *after* his tenure as patent examiner and a lot of experience w/ the patent system, the following extremely interesting comments:

    “If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody. Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices.”

    As Patent historian Edward C. Walterscheid notes, “throughout his life, [Jefferson] retained a healthy skepticism about the value of the patents system.” “Thomas Jefferson and the Patent Act of 1793,” Essays in History 40 (1998).

    So the patent system is defended on this cost-benefit bases; therefore it is appropriate to inquire into these costs, and to challenge those who merely assert that the gain exceeds the cost, i.e. that there is a net gain.

    Are you seriously maintaining that the costs of the patent system are irrelevant? Are you seriously arguing that if the cost far exceeds the gain, the system still makes sense?

    Further, the anarcho-libertarians oppose state enforcement even of real property rights. In a free society, costs of enforcing even real property rights are of course taken into account. If the costs of protecting a given piece of property are too high, it just means that that particular property use is not economic. So?

     

    Published: September 27, 2007 9:58 AM

  • Person

    Stephan_Kinsella: I’m saying that each and every dishonest argument you make against IP can be made against physical property.

    Published: September 27, 2007 10:11 AM

  • Anthony

    Economic calculation is not even possible in the absence of private property. The losses resulting from its absence would far outweigh the gains, if any. Can the same be said of patents?

    Published: September 27, 2007 10:34 AM

  • Person

    Anthony: Mises’s calculation argument applies just the same to the problem of calculating the economic merit of producing an intellectual good, such as a medicine. If everyone immediately gets the information necessary to make it for free, where is the price signal that tells you whether your investment was a profitable use of scarce resources?

    Published: September 27, 2007 10:43 AM

  • Jean Paul

    The greedy self-interested actors who derive their greedy satisfaction from capital accumulation will calculate, “If people copy our drug (as is their pure right), there will be a negative capital payback relative to the time & capital spent. Thus we will not innovate any new drugs.” Those people will go purchase a fleet of dumptrucks or something instead.

    Meanwhile, the other greedy self-interested actors who derive their greedy satisfaction from the improved health of humanity will calculate, “If people copy our drug (as is their pure right), the improved health of humanity could be infinite relative to the time & capital spent. Thus we shall with great enthusiasm innovate as many new drugs as we can manage.”

    Where will the time and capital come from, you ask? From some stream that does not involve institutionalized violence against humanity. I could speculate, but no doubt the free market will figure it out far better than I can.

    For Ktibuk and Artisan, who seem best persuaded by emotional appeals: the TRUE artist, motivated by a PURE and NOBLE desire for self expression, will calculate: “My desire to express myself will be realized on an infinite scale when I permit the copying of ‘my’ creations. Thus I shall create and express and let these seeds flourish where they fall.”

    Meanwhile the skilled technician of drawing or music, who has no desire for artistic self expression, but desires merely to make a buck with the skills they have – they can go work for a wage as a billboard illustrator or as a jingle-writer or something, at whatever market rate those skills command.

    Published: September 27, 2007 12:32 PM

  • gulfwind

    Does anybody remember the tragedy of the commons? Inventors invent because patents provide them property rights in their ideas. This allow them to realize profits that otherwise could just as easily go to their competitors who provided no work in orgination or proving the idea. Part of the reason that England and more particularly the United States have accounted for the lion’s share of progress in the world is thanks to intellectual property rights.

    Share and share alike is for socialists, progressives and utilitarians. You know the same folks that almost starved to death before somebody turned on the light and people could have property rights in the food they grew.

    Published: September 27, 2007 6:04 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    Inventors invent because patents provide them property rights in their ideas.

    This is a non sequitur. Many inventors have invented even when no patents were issued or even sought out.

    Published: September 27, 2007 7:53 PM

  • Francisco Torres

     

    Person,
    It’s well known that it can easily cost a million dollars or more to defend a property title lawsuit.

    Is THAT well known? Really? Because it is not the same to defend a piece of land than it is to defend a piece of faux property like IP (patent, copyright, et cetera). You cannot use the same argument.

    Published: September 27, 2007 8:00 PM

  • Peter

    I do think that economists against IP need to show why IP is inferior (from an economic standpoint, not a moral one) to the lack of IP

    Why? If you’re going to approach it from a utilitarian perspective, shouldn’t it be on the heads of IP supporters to show why IP is superior? The “default” position should always be the “null” one.

    Published: September 28, 2007 12:30 AM

  • Marc Pickett

    “Then we have patent litigation costs. It’s well known that it can easily cost a million dollars or more to defend a patent lawsuit. Bessen & Meuer, if I read their paper correctly, estimate $16 billion in patent litigation costs in 1999; we can assume comparable costs now (again, conservative estimate, since they are probably higher). [Bessen informs me that the $16 billion figure is old — “actually the current figure is $19 billion in 1999 (in 1992 dollars, current dollars are higher) and that is only for public firms … since 1999 the rate of litigation has increased substantially, so current number are probably quite a bit higher”. So we’ll use $25 billion, conservatively.”

    I am frequently seeing litigation costs in excess of 5 million through trial now.

    Published: September 28, 2007 11:06 AM

  • bwp

    “Almost nothing has hindered worldwide economic and technological growth more than reoccurring iron clad patents, nor made so many lawyers extremely prosperous at everyone else’s expense. Plus the high cost of obtaining a patent deters many inventors from ever revealing their ideas.

    The alternative to patents would need to be a system where any novel idea or discovery could be made public knowledge at a particular Internet site. There everyone could see it and test its priority and pass comment about it. This should generate a quicker review system with thousands of reveiwers instead of the overloaded few hundred patent assessors that work for various governments now. A Wiki Quiki Patent Office. In this system all patents could possibly have a world coverage instead of being limited to particular countries. Any company that used that invention would need to pay the inventor around 10% of the net profit their idea generated.

    This way competition probably comes into play immediately and only true competition, which incorporates consistent quality gains, increases the benefit to everyone. Also instead of just one producer it could allow for many producers, all of which could quickly make the ‘idea owner’ much richer. Any breaches of this system would probably not be enforceable except through related industry group pressure, hopefully proving that regulators are not needed while simultaneously keeping the inventors and their investors happy.

    The closing date of the US Patent Office should become a two day public holiday celebrated through out the whole world simply because it could beneficially effect the wealth of everyone on the planet.”
    Excerpt from ‘What is the Primary Fundamental Right?

    Published: September 30, 2007 5:47 AM

  • averros

    Anyone who actually invented something worthwhile knows perfectly well that inventions do not exist in vacuum – they’re typically things “in the air” – the results of discussions, semi-baked ideas making rounds, and applying something other people do in different circumstances.

    Who invented what is totally irrelevant – most things are independently reinvented many times. Just study some history of science; one would be hard pressed to find a law which is named after its earliest discoverer.

    It follows that the whole “first one to the the goal line owns everything” concept is totally idiotic and only penalizes people who want to do a better job by doing careful thinking.

    Published: October 2, 2007 9:59 PM

  • DC

    I see Person is still at it with the argument he feels settles the debate. Since I’m late to this one, I’ll just simulate our conversation. It will probably be about as productive as the conversation itself:

    Person: Every one of Kinsella’s arguments against IP can be used against libertarian property rights with the same validity.

    DC: No they can’t. See Kinsella’s oft-referred to article on IP.

    Person: I’ve read it, and it only confirms my view.

    DC: Look at it again. Kinsella first states that all claims to property must be justified. Then he deals with the typical IP claims. He assumes that they have made their reasons for justification known, which, by the way, always refer to some version of homesteading or owning ideas.

    Person: That’s fine, but they don’t need to refer to owning ideas for their justification.

    DC: What else might they use?

    Person: It doesn’t matter! My point is that there are other methods.

    DC: . . .then Kinsella would dismiss those claims as unjustified until some justification is made.

    Person: No, no no. . .look at it this way. They can claim that “I own all physical objects to the extent that they instantiate idea X.” See? No reference to owning the idea X!

    DC: But why is that claim justified – what about idea X means that they can claim property P?

    Person: It doesn’t matter!

    DC: Then Kinsella is right to reject it as an unjustified claim. I might as well claim to own this teapot because Mars revolves around the Sun.

    Person: OK, fine. Suppose they homesteaded that idea.

    DC: Now we’re into talk about idea ownership. Either IP claims on property will be unjustified, or they will rely on homesteading / ownership of ideas for the justification of their claims. That’s exactly what Kinsella was getting at in his original article.

    Person: . . . .

    DC: . . . .

    Person: Every one of Kinsella’s arguments against IP can be used against libertarian property rights with the same validity.

    DC: *slaps forehead*

    Published: October 3, 2007 9:31 AM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Dude, that is the most brilliant dissection of Person I have ever seen. Well played, my friend…. well played.

    Published: October 3, 2007 10:40 AM

  • DC

    Stephan, it was arrived at through much trial and error. . .but thanks all the same. 🙂

    I think I understand what Person is trying to say, and I’m open to new arguments, but as best as I can tell that’s the circle that he and I run in every time we interact.

    Published: October 3, 2007 11:35 AM

  • the Other DC

    The difference between IP and physical property is simple: physical property can only be used by one person at a time. Ideas can be used by many different people without diminishing their utility to anybody who uses it.
    That is why Property Rights can only apply to physical things.

    Or to put it differently: When I steal an idea, the other person ONLY notices the loss when a) I use it, and b) my use of the idea diminishes his income.

    When I steal somebody’s car, this owner will notice and suffer the loss almost immediately (at least until they go to the spot they expect the car to be), not just when I start driving the car around.

    An argument can be made to justify IP, but to treat it as equivalent to physical property is plain daft.

    Published: September 29, 2008 9:24 PM

  • Jab

    I think Person is exactly right on this.

    @the Other DC

    If someone is standing in your yard, and not “hurting anything,” you may not notice. However, your property rights still allow you to go out and tell that person to get the f’k off your property. That’s what property rights are all about.

    The IP arguments are the only area where I dramatically differ from the Mises.org/LRC crowd. I just don’t see why everyone who claims to be a libertarian thinks they have an automatic right to the music, software, books, etc. written by other people. Well, actually, I do see why — it’s the same reason people vote themselves largess from the taxpayer. After all, tax dollars are just numbers in a ledger — the taxpayers don’t really own the fruits of their labor just like musicians, authors, and software producers don’t own the rights to the fruits of their labor . Right? /sarc

    I truly don’t get how any libertarian can think they have automatic rights to the fruits of other people’s labor.

    Published: September 29, 2008 10:34 PM

  • the Other DC

    Jab – if somebody stands on my property without doing anything, could i stand at the exact same spot at the same time?

    If somebody reads book through a telescope, can I read the exact same book at the same time?

    That’s the difference.

    If somebody has the exact same idea as I had AFTER I had patented my idea, even if this person has never read my patent, and he wants to put it to use, but now MY patent restricts him from it, is that right?

    Published: September 30, 2008 8:13 AM

  • Jab

    @the Other DC

    I’m not sure how the concept of simultaneity became the definition of ownership. A person standing in your yard may not interfere in any way with your use of the yard — you may not even know he’s there; that doesn’t define ownership. All you’re doing is defining ownership to be limited to something that is tangible. That’s a false definition.

    Perhaps your definition would work if we were all cows without the ability for abstract thought, but people spend years of their lives developing things that are abstract in nature. When someone trades years of their life to create something, how suddenly is it as much yours as it it theirs?

    Patents are more problematic than copyright, but Kinsella’s arguments don’t distinguish between the two. In reality, most things that are awarded patents would be more correctly awarded copyright instead. The VAST majority of patents are awarded for inventions that are not new or unique or even outside the realm or normal construction for an industry. The Patent Office mostly rubber stamps inventions (with a few token rejections to make it “look good”), but leaves the heavy work to the courts. The problem is that the minimum court battle is 7 figures making the larger company a heavy favorite to win, and you can’t select a jury that actually has a clue about how to decide a complex case.

    If a person truly had the exact same idea after the patent, then I agree with you about the patent being problematic. However, it’s much easier to copy than invent, so that’s something that is difficult to prove. However, that isn’t all that different than someone owning a piece of property that you just “have” to have, but they happened to get there the day before to buy it first. The world is not a perfect place.

    Published: September 30, 2008 2:10 PM

  • The Other DC

    Ok, let’s cut through it. Only tangible things that can be directly measured either in area, volume, and/or weight can be property. Human beings cannot be property. Anything that cannot be measured in area, volume, and/or weight cannot be property.

    That’s an axiomatic proposition which requires no proof.

    If you disagree with this definition, that’s your prerogative. It also means that we have nothing to discuss.

    makes sense?

    Published: September 30, 2008 4:40 PM

  • Jab

    @The Other DC

    I think that’s roughly the point Person was trying to make (although I don’t pretend to speak for him). Marxist-oriented left wingers use Kinsella’s arguments (sometimes, almost word-for-word) to attack the whole concept of property because it is axiomatic. Historically, humankind has been better served my more property rights, not less.

    Do you have a right to privacy? Why? By your definition, you can’t own your privacy because it’s not tangible.

    Do you have a right to earn money that’s not handed to you in pure gold? Even gold-backed paper currency is abstract in nature and, by your definition, can’t be owned. Most transactions these days are computerized ledger entries — something you can’t own (by your definition).

    In the future, when government or individuals can read your thoughts through EM radiation (or other means), will that be wrong? By your definition, you can’t own your thoughts and have no rights to them, so it won’t be.

    If someone puts a camera off your property, but, through a window, videos you banging your pit bull and broadcasts it on JustinTV, do you have a right to stop the broadcast and take legal action against the perpetrator? What if it’s in infra-red through your wall? What if it’s using some yet-to-be-invented quantum coupling camera that can do perfect videos through any physical medium? By your definition, you don’t have a right to the images.

    I could go on, but the point is made. The libertarian view has been that humanity is served though the use of property rights. Kinsella’s bizarre attacks on IP notwithstanding.

    Published: September 30, 2008 5:15 PM

  • The Other DC

    Jab,

    whether humanity has been better served by private property than by other forms of property is irrelevant to a libertarian. The argument is axiomatic. There is nothing wrong with axiomatic statements. You even have them in mathematics (which is where they really come from).

    Marxists can disagree with it on axiomatic grounds. That’s fine. But, that also means there is no discussion.

    Your statement that “The libertarian view has been that humanity is served though the use of property rights.” is wrong. That’s a utilitarian argument, not a libertarian one. If any libertarian should use it, she better check her basic assumptions or stop claiming to be libertarian.

    “If someone puts a camera off your property, but, through a window, videos you banging your pit bull and broadcasts it on JustinTV, do you have a right to stop the broadcast and take legal action against the perpetrator?”

    Short answer: no. I could try to come to an agreement with the owners of JustinTV not to show it, but I don’t have a right to stop it.

    “In the future, when government or individuals can read your thoughts through EM radiation (or other means), will that be wrong?”

    No, it would be unpleasant. But not wrong. At least not for individuals. The fact you even mention government here clearly shows you are not very familiar with libertarian ideas.

    “By your definition, you can’t own your thoughts and have no rights to them, so it won’t be.”

    Yes. Correct.

    “What if it’s using some yet-to-be-invented quantum coupling camera that can do perfect videos through any physical medium? By your definition, you don’t have a right to the images.”

    Correct, I do not. I wouldn’t like the situation, but – that’s really irrelevant.

    Published: September 30, 2008 8:20 PM

  • The Other DC

    Not to gloat or anything, but: have I actually managed to make a point that Jab cannot find an argument against?

    Sweet.

    Published: October 2, 2008 4:14 PM

  • Jab

    @The Other DC

    I suppose you have nothing to do but endlessly comment on blogs. I guess that makes sense.

    Typically, when an argument gets to the point of “you obviously don’t understand libertarianism” from someone who’s making non-libertarian arguments, I don’t bother replying.

    Published: October 6, 2008 1:34 PM

  • The Other DC

    Jab – in other words, you have the good sense of not continuing an argument when you have lost it.

    Regarding your sentiment “Typically, when an argument gets to the point of “you obviously don’t understand libertarianism” from someone who’s making non-libertarian arguments, I don’t bother replying.”

    Well, you obviously do not understand libertarianism, since you believe that a state-enforced law is necessary for libertarianism.

    A little bit like a self-described Atheist who thinks morality requires a deity….

    Published: November 1, 2008 7:00 PM

Share
{ 2 comments }

Brazil and Compulsory Licenses

From Mises blog, June 7, 2007; archived comments below.

As I’ve noted previously, there is nothing necessarily unlibertarian about the feds issuing a compulsory license of a patent, since this merely takes back some of the monopoly right it should not have granted in the first place. (See Condemning Patents and Patents, Prescription Drugs, and Price Controls.)1

Now “Brazil decided to break the patent on the HIV drug Storcrin (the brand name for efavirenz), becoming the second country to challenge the pharmaceutical industry in seeking a drastic reductions in drug costs. Brazil’s President signed a compulsory licence for efavirenz to purchase from generic suppliers under provisions permitted by World Trade Organization rules.”

What is funny is the language used to describe compulsory licenses–Brazil decided to “break” the patent. It’s reminiscent of the Orwellian language used to describe countries’ efforts to “fight” inflation–as if they are not the cause of it. The patent Brazil decided to “break” is a patent granted by Brazil itself. That is, Brazil grants a monopoly privilege to some patent holder, and then decides to retract it. That’s “breaking” something?

Comments (47)

  • Yancey Ward
  • Government double-speak is the usual language, such as reducing tax rates is robbing the poor and giving to the rich.
  • Published: June 8, 2007 11:41 AM

  • Daniel M Ryan
  • If y’all don’t mind a cynical interpretation of the news, it’s evident that the Brazilian government has decided that there are no fundamental breakthroughs in the drug pipeline.”They don’t nationalize the mine ’til after it’s dug.”
  • Published: June 8, 2007 12:00 PM

  • Brad
  • Echoing Daniel, it’s obvious States first bar to assist sector a, then release to assist sector b, yet always serving itself above all. It’s all part and parcel of how “capitalist” countries are anything but. The government controls with strings to ultimately suit itself. It looks like capitalism to those who don’t look very hard, but it’s really socialism. The neatest trick of all, when the function ultimately fails, it fails under the banner of capitalism and elicits calls for more boldfaced socialism as the “solution”.So it’s not just a straight contradiction, issuance and retraction, resulting in a negation, it’s a ploy to make sure everything is ultimately in the hands of the State bureaucrats and someone else takes the heat.This slight of hand obviously works since there are a good many people who believe it is Big Corporations that are keeping the world in poverty, when the only function that can force poverty on anyone that otherwise wouldn’t be is a State. While not a lover of Big Business, and certainly aware that there are very cozy relationships between Big Business and Big Government, such relationships only have efficacy when the much larger Big Goverment Brother exists in the first place.
  • Published: June 8, 2007 1:30 PM

  • Michael A. Clem
  • Obviously, the Brazilian government is breaking the promise they made to protect patents. But government promises are only as good as the political power that supports them. Crash-and-burn.
  • Published: June 8, 2007 1:49 PM

  • Person
  • Oh *we* didn’t nationalize the factory. We just stopped protecting it when all those nasty people wanted to kick you out!
  • Published: June 8, 2007 2:09 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella
  • Person, “Oh *we* didn’t nationalize the factory. We just stopped protecting it when all those nasty people wanted to kick you out!”Bad analogy, Person. Here’s why. First, if a mob wants to steal your house and the state does not step in, that is not the same as the state taking it. The problem is if the state prevents you from defending your property or from hiring your own defense agents. But assuming the state merely chooses not to provide you with defense assistance from private crime, it is not their fault. And if you choose to defend your own property, your action should be regarded as rightful, not itself criminal.But in the case of a patent, say, if the state refuses to grant you a monopoly, that just means it is refusing to penalize or jail people who are doing something similar to you. If you have a method for purifying water, say (a “recipe”), and you try to bomb the factory of a competitor doing the same thing, you are in fact committing a criminal act.
  • Published: June 8, 2007 2:32 PM

  • Person
  • Stephan_Kinsella: in both cases, the state is simply no longer enforcing some particular right. The only difference is in *which* rights you happen to favor — and then the other guy looks bad.Amateur stuff.
  • Published: June 8, 2007 3:41 PM

  • punter
  • Stephan, if you think this terminology is Orwellian, you should come to Australia and observe the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS)in action. Basically, the government supposedly acts as a monopsonist buyer in order to reduce the prices paid for drugs. This is supposedly a grand achievement which saves taxpayers billions a year (so we are told), of course it means that there are far less drugs available that have to be rationed by prescriptions (although given my extreme antipathy to allopathic medicine I can’t say this is a bad thing). Nonetheless, the government justification for the PBS is to lower prices and protect taxpayers. (You’ll note that the analysis of costs does not include the extra money that people have to fork over to see a doctor to give them the prescription they already know they need).On the other hand, of course, the justification for pharma patents is to ensure drug companies have enough incentive to justify their supposedly enormous research spending (which apparently consists of them finding poisons with extremely long names).So we need one bureaucracy to ensure drug prices are extremely high, and another to ensure that they are kept low – brilliant! Government action at its finest.
  • Published: June 8, 2007 6:45 PM

  • DC
  • Stephan_Kinsella: in both cases, the state is simply no longer enforcing some particular right. The only difference is in *which* rights you happen to favor — and then the other guy looks bad.It seemed pretty clear to me that Kinsella was distinguishing between the government refraining from doing something and the government actively interfering, as is the case when the government prevents one from justifiably defending themselves.In one case the government is simply no longer providing defense services, and in the other case they are an aggressor and an accomplice to the mob. I’d take the government that simply refrained from providing its “services” in a heart beat.
  • Published: June 11, 2007 12:40 PM

  • Joshua Katz
  • It seems to me that there is something to be argued here. I do oppose patents, but doesn’t the situation change somewhat once a patent is given? After all, to obtain a patent, the company has to make available the method used to produce the product, which they wouldn’t do if it weren’t required for a patent. Then, if the government removes the patent, the company is left worse off than they would be without patent law existing in the first place.
  • Published: June 11, 2007 7:43 PM

  • TokyoTom
  • While not directly related to pharmaceuticals, the greater protection of trade secrets that they can secure at home is one of the chief reasons that Japan’s main manufacturers keep their most advanced technologies at home:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118158711463431505.html?mod=todays_asia_nonsub_page_one
  • Published: June 12, 2007 6:41 AM

  • Person
  • Tokyo_Tom: Remind me what that has to do with global warming?DC: In *both* cases the state is simply no longer intervening when someone’s (erstwhile) legal rights were being violated. To call one case “protection against aggression” is to beg the question.
  • Published: June 12, 2007 8:58 AM

  • DC
  • Person,There is a difference in kind between “no longer intervening” between two parties and actively interfering with a party trying to (justifiably) protect their own rights. No question-begging about it.
  • Published: June 12, 2007 10:55 AM

  • Person
  • DC: Yes, there’s question-begging. Right here: “trying to (justifiably) protect their own rights.” Can you really not see it?
  • Published: June 12, 2007 11:01 AM

  • DC
  • Person, not as it pertains to the distinction between refraining from action and actively intervening. In what way is the objection you raise valid?
  • Published: June 12, 2007 12:33 PM

  • Person
  • DC: Please, try to put some effort into this. In the case of physical property rights, the Brazilian government *actively intervenes* when someone violates them. In thecase of patents, the Brazilian government *actively intervenes* when someone violates them. Now, you tell me the difference, and really think about it this time.
  • Published: June 12, 2007 12:40 PM

  • DC
  • Person, don’t get belligerent. Your previous comment in this thread used an example of government inactivity, which is why Mr. Kinsella responded in the first place (and, subsequently, so did I).
  • Published: June 12, 2007 12:56 PM

  • Person
  • DC: My point was that patent-breaking corresponds to *both* active *and* passive interventions for property rights that you already agree with. That is, there’s the same except for which side you already favor. Now, come on, give me something more substantive to work with this time.
  • Published: June 12, 2007 1:40 PM

  • DC
  • Person, it’s impossible to have a “passive intervention for property rights that you already agree with.” Could you explain what you mean by your latest comment?
  • Published: June 12, 2007 1:46 PM

  • Person
  • DC: Let me see if I can fit this into your attention span:Physical property rights: The government refuses to disturb your property rights in what’s “yours”. The government combats those who stop you from doing so.Patents: The government refuses to disturb your use of your patent. The government combats those who violate it.

    The government has active interventions AND “just leaves you alone” for both of them. The only difference is that you like one of the rights and you don’t like the other.

    Now you can quit playing debater.

  • Published: June 12, 2007 2:54 PM

  • DC
  • Ah, I see. You’re making a claim that intellectual property rights exist. OK, now I see why you weren’t picking up on what Kinsella was talking about, and why you weren’t seeing my distinction.By the way, I don’t debate uncivil interlocutors. Goodbye.
  • Published: June 12, 2007 5:23 PM

  • Person
  • Yeah … it took you five exchanges to understand a simple point … and now you’re shying away … because I was incivil! Yeah, that’s it!
  • Published: June 12, 2007 8:18 PM

  • DC
  • My apologies, Person. It’s just that I have grown accustomed to conversing with people who are able to communicate ideas clearly, who are more interested in these ideas than in “winning”, and who know basic etiquette when it comes to debate.For example, it’s generally fruitful to grant the assumptions of your opponent, or at least use his terminology, and then show why you think his position is flawed. Otherwise, it’s a near content-less argument of unshared terminology, generally cheapening into sarcasm and insults, with both sides claiming victory at every turn. I’d rather not get dragged down to that kind of “debate.”I had forgotten that the anonymity of the internet makes people bold toward every inclination.

    So, interpret this comment however you’d like — really. Call this my resignation to your superior argument, or my admission of an inability to understand the most basic concepts. It doesn’t seem to me that this is logical, nor a likely explanation, for why I’m stepping away, but I can’t force you to hold one opinion over another.

  • Published: June 13, 2007 7:14 AM

  • Person
  • DC: You couldn’t see the point I was making, because you assumed your conclusion. Yes, if I already accept that IP rights are invalid, Brazil didn’t do anything wrong. But if I don’t accept that, Stephan_Kinsella’s “argument” (and I use that term loosely) doesn’t establish much.I expect better of people. That’s not unreasonable.
  • Published: June 13, 2007 8:33 AM

  • DC
  • It shouldn’t be surprising that a post on a libertarian blog might assume that, say, property rights are a true / valid idea and intellectual property is false / invalid.I don’t see why he would be obligated to prove his way back to a libertarian foundation of natural rights every time he brings the subject up.You are right, though: by assuming a simple set of libertarian values, the post stands as is. Question those foundations, and the blog post as is won’t serve as the proof-text for the assumptions that were made in writing it. Yipee.
  • Published: June 13, 2007 2:37 PM

  • Person
  • DC: Stephan_Kinsella’s post was intended to show a reason why IP is absurd. It doesn’t show any absurdity unless I already agree it’s absurd. It provides nothing useful except for Stephan_Kinsella to preach to an echo chamber about his flimsy theories. I explained this already.You’re not putting enough effort into thinking about these ideas. Try harder.
  • Published: June 13, 2007 2:55 PM

  • Kevin B.
  • Person: “Stephan_Kinsella’s post was intended to show a reason why IP is absurd.”IP “rights” do not need this post to be absurd.Most obviously, Kinsella is pointing out the silliness of government officials placing blame for the negative effects of patent laws on patent holders.

    My opinion is that Stephan Kinsella’s post was intended to show a reason why the State is absurd.

  • Published: June 13, 2007 3:42 PM

  • DC
  • Stephan_Kinsella’s post was intended to show a reason why IP is absurd.That’s a bad assumption. Kinsella’s post shows an absurdity that follows from the government’s handling of IP rights (in this case, language).Pointing out the fact that he’s relying on an assumption to make this point is only relevant if removing the assumption takes away the linch pin of the post.
  • Published: June 13, 2007 4:14 PM

  • Person
  • Oh, okay, he wasn’t showing a reason why IP is absurd, he was showing an instance of IP being absurd.Wanna try that one again?
  • Published: June 13, 2007 4:23 PM

  • DC
  • Person, that you had to change my language is telling. Do you really not see it?
  • Published: June 13, 2007 4:40 PM

  • Person
  • Okay okay okay, So Kinsella wasn’t showing a reason why IP is absurd OR an instance of IP being absurd, but rather, and absurdity following from the government’s handling of IP rights.Ever got the feeling you should just … give up?Kevin_B.: Nah, I don’t think that was it or he would have hinted something like that.
  • Published: June 13, 2007 5:00 PM

  • DC
  • Person: nice counterargument. OK, I’ll give up now.
  • Published: June 13, 2007 5:03 PM

  • DC
  • Thinking over it still more, you really ought to question your assumptions on this one, Person. Reading Kinsella’s post, I don’t see any indication that he’s attempting to do what you say he intends.
  • Published: June 14, 2007 7:32 AM

  • Person
  • DC: That’s not surprising, since you seem to have no idea what he was trying to show, in the first place. Let’s see, Kinsella wasn’t showing why patents are absurd, he wasn’t showing why this patent was absurd, he wasn’t showing an instance of a patent being absurd … what was he doing? And how does this post do that?When you’ve got that whole deal patched up, then maybe I can take you seriously — or Stephan.
  • Published: June 14, 2007 10:31 AM

  • DC
  • Person, can you make a clarification for me? Are you saying that Kinsella with this blog post is claiming that IP rights are themselves invalid, or only that he’s showing how it’s laughable/absurd in application? Your implicit claim seems to be that he’s using this post to argue that IP is invalid, but you haven’t stated it as such.If you are saying that this blog is only about an absurd case of the application IP rights, then it is clear that you only need grant the assumption that IP is invalid (again, to be expected on a libertarian blog) to see how this instance is simply absurd. Or you could use common sense intuition to see the government’s equivocation.Or, it’s possible that you are claiming that Kinsella is trying to show the invalidity of IP with this blog, using absurdity as evidence. In other words, that he’s making an argument as to the nature of rights. In this case, the assumptions of the counterargument are to blame for the confusion.

    In either case, as long as one realizes that this isn’t Kinsella’s proof-text against IP rights, the blog seems to escape your original criticism that he’s using “rights” in a way that you disagree with.

  • Published: June 14, 2007 11:06 AM

  • Person
  • DC: I don’t see the point of the distinction you’re making. Whether Kinsella is trying to argue for IP rights as being invalid, or for this showing an absurdity, it fails, for the reasons I’ve explained above. Refusing to enforce physical property rights is *also* “just not granting a monopoly”. Kinsella’s post is not argumentative, it is not creative, it is not ground-breaking … what is it supposed to be?
  • Published: June 14, 2007 12:51 PM

  • DC
  • Whether Kinsella is trying to argue for IP rights as being invalid, or for this showing an absurdity, it fails, for the reasons I’ve explained above.Reasons? I saw presumptuous assertions, and assertions that failed as persuasive critiques.Kinsella’s post is not argumentative, it is not creative, it is not ground-breaking … what is it supposed to be?

    These are all value judgments, arguable in both directions, and ultimately in the eye of the beholder. Remember that this is just a blog, after all. . .

  • Published: June 14, 2007 2:02 PM

  • Person
  • Reasons? I saw presumptuous assertions, and assertions that failed as persuasive critiques.You’re not very bright, are you? My “assertions” were “asserting” the exact same things Kinsella said, except in a different context, showing his assertions’ weakness. Are you just now learning this?
  • Published: June 14, 2007 2:46 PM

  • DC
  • Person, you were asserting that you knew the intention of Kinsella’s post (to show that IP was invalid), and assessed it on that basis. (Your critique otherwise was aesthetic in nature, as I showed above).Your argument relied on making the point that the way Kinsella used “rights” was objectionable. I was merely pointing out that yours was a presumptive tactic, as Kinsella wasn’t even pretending to give a proof text for the validity or invalidity of IP within the scope of this blog post.Your critique showed that Kinsella committed the crime of assuming a libertarian philosophy before commenting on current events; that’s all. (You did do a good job of showing this, by the way).

    And, as I said before, name calling and excessive posturing aren’t my cup of tea. I stuck around a bit before; I won’t be doing so this time. Goodbye.

  • Published: June 14, 2007 3:01 PM

  • Person
  • Person, you were asserting that you knew the intention of Kinsella’s postNo, I was showing the absurtity of his argument, regardless of his ultimate intent.Your critique showed that Kinsella committed the crime of assuming a libertarian philosophy before commenting on current events

    No, he assumed “IP rights are invalid, physical property rights aren’t”. That’s not the same thing. It would be just as absurd — given what he posted — to describe “not enforcing property rights in a factory” as “breaking” something, as it would be to describe “not enforcing patents in an invention” as breaking something. That was the point, which has still eluded you.

    Btw, this attempt to save face by acting like it’s the same calling that bothers you the most … isn’t lost on anyone. Get over yourself. You’re upset that you didn’t understand a simple point, revelled in your ignorance, and someone called you on it. We deserve better.

  • Published: June 14, 2007 3:38 PM

  • DC
  • Well, if your object is simply to keep me in this, Person, I have to admit that you are besting me. I hadn’t checked this thread up until just now, and didn’t expect to write more, but I’ll put in another counter-post.DC:Your critique showed that Kinsella committed the crime of assuming a libertarian philosophy before commenting on current eventsPerson: No, he assumed “IP rights are invalid, physical property rights aren’t”.

    Also known as a basic libertarian world view, with the latter claim predicating the first.

    That’s not the same thing. It would be just as absurd — given what he posted — to describe “not enforcing property rights in a factory” as “breaking” something, as it would be to describe “not enforcing patents in an invention” as breaking something. That was the point, which has still eluded you.

    This is rhetorical, since this point hasn’t eluded me: I (and others) have highlighted it above and dealt with it. Moving beyond this assertion would be a step forward. If you feel comfortable where you are, asserting victory and my ignorance, feel free to stay there, though. I’m not here to rock conceptual boats.

  • Published: June 18, 2007 6:11 AM

  • Person
  • No, he assumed “IP rights are invalid, physical property rights aren’t”.Also known as a basic libertarian world view, with the latter claim predicating the first.

    It’s not a “basic” libertarian world view, if many libertarians don’t accept it.

    This is rhetorical, since this point hasn’t eluded me: I (and others) have highlighted it above and dealt with it.

    Where have you dealt with it? Be specific. You already admitted you spent the whole time assuming your conclusion, but that’s “okay” because this is a libertarian web site.

  • Published: June 18, 2007 8:12 AM

  • DC
  • It’s not a “basic” libertarian world view, if many libertarians don’t accept it.

    It’s the line of thought expressed in Mises, Rothbard, Walter Block, Hoppe, Roderick Long, . . .okay, I’m sorry. I’ll look for a 100%, unanimous, all-in-this-together agreement next time before saying that an idea is a basic notion in the philosophy. Let me rephrase: “Kinsella assumes one of the most common principles in libertarian philosophy in this blog post.” Better?

    Keep in mind that many libertarians who seem OK with IP practices like copyright (most famously Rothbard) don’t actually think that “intellectual property rights” exist. Rothbard, of course, grounded his theory of copyright explicitly in property rights and contract, since he didn’t buy the argument that ideas could be owned.

    Where have you dealt with it?

     

    Posted by DC at June 14, 2007 11:06 AM
    Posted by DC at June 14, 2007 3:01 PM
    Posted by DC at June 14, 2007 2:02 PM

    [Hint: It ultimately has to do with scarcity. You are assuming debatable conclusions from a different argument and are presuming these to be a valid objection to this one.]

    You already admitted you spent the whole time assuming your conclusion, but that’s “okay” because this is a libertarian web site.

    This bit makes me think that you haven’t yet gotten my point, nor the reason why Kinsella made that blog post. Do you still think that the blog was an argument attacking the validity of intellectual property?

  • Published: June 18, 2007 9:38 AM

  • Person
  • Let me rephrase: “Kinsella assumes one of the most common principles in libertarian philosophy in this blog post.” Better?Even then, no. “IP is invalid” would be an *implication* of a principle, not the principle itself. And it’s not as widely-accepted as you claim, if M. Friedman, Rand, and (see below) Rothbard accept some form of IP.Rothbard, of course, grounded his theory of copyright explicitly in property rights and contract, since he didn’t buy the argument that ideas could be owned.

    What does it matter if he specifically believed that “ideas can be owned” or not; he supports of the *substance* of “idea ownership” that its supporters want.

    Me:Where have you dealt with it?

     

    You: Posted by DC … [Hint: It ultimately has to do with scarcity. You are assuming debatable conclusions from a different argument and are presuming these to be a valid objection to this one.]

    *sigh*

    I knew your attention span wasn’t very long, but you had to go and prove it again. Let’s go back and find out what the “it” in “dealt with it” refers to. Here’s my post that describes the “it”:

    It would be just as absurd — given what he posted — to describe “not enforcing property rights in a factory” as “breaking” something, as it would be to describe “not enforcing patents in an invention” as breaking something. That was the point, which has still eluded you.

    Now, how do any of your posts address that? They don’t!

    This bit makes me think that you haven’t yet gotten my point, nor the reason why Kinsella made that blog post. Do you still think that the blog was an argument attacking the validity of intellectual property?

    Have you settled on what you think Kinsella was trying to prove?

    I though it was clear from the beginning that my posts in no way depended on what Kinsella was trying to prove, just that his reasoning was inconsistent. “Breaking” a patent is just like “breaking” a property right; the only difference is which you like. “Breaking” is therefore a neutral term to use, and doesn’t warrant Stephan’s mockery.

  • Published: June 18, 2007 10:34 AM

  • Michael
  • DC, you really should stop rising to Person’s bait. He has been an ass to you the entire time, and he has clearly shown that he is not interested in “intelligent and civil” discourse. Whether he is a troll or not, you’re wasting your time and effort on him.
  • Published: June 18, 2007 10:38 AM

  • DC
  • Michael, thanks for the interjection. I said twice before that I was done, but then I came back both times. You are right, of course, about the quality and meaningfulness of this entire thread.I may have made 2 mistakes in this comment thread by continuing, but I’ll be sure to forget about responding to Person’s flaming in any way in the future. I should have listened to my own advice only a few posts into this. 🙂
  • Published: June 18, 2007 10:54 AM

  • Person
  • Michael, I’m curious, how would you characterize Stephan_Kinsella’s original post? Was that an intelligent post, which revealed some kind of useful insight, or was it just mindless posturing? Think about it.Oh, and can you give specific examples of me being an ass?
  • Published: June 18, 2007 11:01 AM

  1.  For more on compulsory licensing, see Hickey, Kevin J.; Ward, Erin H., “The Role of Patents and Regulatory Exclusivities in Drug Pricing” (01/30/2024). [↩]
Share
{ 3 comments }

Epson, Ink, Patents

From Mises blog; archived comments below.

See also:

“BMW will make it harder to repair their cars “illegally”- The company has introduced patented screws with a logo-shaped head, which are currently only available to official dealers. These fasteners cannot be removed with standard keys, which could make independent repair and maintenance impossible in unofficial garages. The patent will affect interior components and important assemblies – seats and body connections.”

See also “Leveraging IP“.

Epson, Ink, Patents

TAGS Monopoly and Competition

Epson wins preliminary ruling against aftermarket cartridge manufacturers reports that:

Epson is one step closer to closing the books on a case against third-party ink cartridge manufacturers that make and sell products to work with Epson printers. The company has won a preliminary ruling saying that 24 aftermarket print cartridge manufacturers do indeed infringe on Epson’s patents, and they face orders that would bar them from selling the infringing products in the US.

See, here’s what happens. If you design an innovative laser printer, you can patent its design. But that would not stop some competitor from making ink cartridges to work with it. Just like if you buy a rifle, you can buy bullets from anyone.

But printer manufacturers like HP and Epson make their money on the ink, not the printers. I don’t think they even deny this. So they hate it when you buy a bargain basement generic ink cartridge or pay someone to refill yours. They want you to buy their cartridges only. So what these companies do is this. They intentionally complicate the design of the cartridge and file patents on it. They make their base printer such that it will only work with a cartridge that has the patented devices in it. Voila—they can now stop people from competing with them on ink. Beautiful example of the free market, is it not?

Archived comments:

Comments (182)

  • Francisco Torres

    Voila–they can now stop people from competing with them on ink.

    That is exactly what IP laws amount to: nothing more than Letters of Marque granted by the government to stop the competition, even if the latter offer better pricing.

    IP Law is nothing more than protectionism with a false veneer of “property rights” protection.

    Published: April 9, 2007 3:28 PM

  • Brent

    IP = Illicit Property

    Published: April 9, 2007 3:32 PM

  • happylee

    Letters of Marque? I love it.

    Published: April 9, 2007 3:46 PM

  • Michael A. Clem

    An excellent reason to not buy Epson printers. Woo-hoo!

    Published: April 9, 2007 3:52 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Francisco,

    We went over this: there is a perfectly fine anarcho-capitalist way of protecting your copyrights and trademarks (patents only to the extent of copyright protection)… Read Rothbard with an open mind, and you will understand it….

    But when it comes to printers, Dr. Kinsella perhaps used a wrong analogy. Rifle manufacturers do not design their weapons only for a special caliber that they invent… That would be bad for business, since it is crucial for people prefer to have a large and stable supplies of ammunition. The idiots at Epson think that the same logic applies to them and that people will voluntarily choose to be dependant on one manufacturer when it comes to cartridges (and not find a way to refill those with ink, which is rather simple and inexpensive)…

    Anyway, if we had a perfect, pure anarcho-capitalism, nothing would prevent Epson from contractually restrict your reproduction of their cartridges — or to use tort law against those outside of contracts who want to do the same (by using their goods without authorization)….

    Who cares, anyway? They can only establish a monopoly in their stupid and absurd product — and there are plenty of other companies that can offer superior goods and services.

    Published: April 9, 2007 4:09 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Sasha, Epson is not “idiotic”; far from it. Epson and HP make billions of dollars using these tactics. Hardly idiotic. Nor was NTP “idiotic” to extort $612M out of RIM, the manufacturer of BlackBerry.

    What is idiotic is any so-called libertarian defending the travesty known as “intellectual property.”

    Published: April 9, 2007 4:20 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha Radeta said:

    if we had a perfect, pure anarcho-capitalism

     

    I have no problem with contractual restrictions, but that is not what is happening. These rulings have been rightfully pooh-poohed.

    Published: April 9, 2007 4:41 PM

  • Person

    Hey, joke’s on them: I just bought 50 Epson printers, disassembled them, and sold off the parts. That’s 50 printers that they sold at a loss with no possibility of recouping through ink sales.

    I can’t wait to see the looks on the shareholders’ faces at the annual meeting when the board announces it’s discontinuing the quarterly dividend =-)

    Published: April 9, 2007 4:48 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Dr. Kinsella,

    I wouldn’t be so harsh when it comes to Rothbard, the dean of Austrian school of economics. He did a nice job of explaining how copyrights can be compatible with free markets, while we both agreed on his weaker points…

    As far as NTP and BlackBerry goes, did I mention anything about that company? I really don’t know what you’re talking about. I never call them “idiotic.”

    When it comes to Epson, as the company grows very large, it often looses sight of what consumers really want and need. It is true that producers of printers make money through cartridges – but the long run success can hardly be accomplished by limiting your base product to only supplier of the necessary components. You correctly stated that rifle manufacturers were not so stupid to make-up new types of ammunition for new types of guns – since no one would be that stupid to become dependant on one bullet manufacturer. Also, you neglected the growing number of people that simply and cheaply refill their old cartridges.

    You can actually argue that buying cartridges is idiotic, as well as complaining about an absurd monopoly in one type of cartridge.

    Regards and thanks for your response.

    Published: April 9, 2007 4:52 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin,

    Of you read more carefully, you will find that I never defended Epson and I never claimed that what they do now is the application “contract law.”

    But if we had a perfect anarcho-capitalism, would they have some legal means to prevent the reproduction of their absurd and useless innovation? Absolutely yes. That was my whole point to those who scream against “intellectual property” (what a nonsensical term).

    Published: April 9, 2007 4:57 PM

  • Mathieu Bédard

    I was curious so I checked and the ‘official’ Epson cartridges go for about 5 times the price of the cheapest no name look-alike.

    We can only guess how much more expensive would they be without those competitors..

    Published: April 9, 2007 5:26 PM

  • scineram

    [quote]Absolutely yes.[/quote]
    Absolutely no.

    PS: Why no BBCode? I unknow html.

    Published: April 9, 2007 6:37 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    My miscommunication. I agree that restrictions could be attempted by contract and wish such restrictions were limited to contract and not open to these funhouse laws and court rulings.

    Published: April 9, 2007 6:50 PM

  • RENE MERINO

    WHAT EPSON AND HP OFFER (FOR PHOTOS ANYWAY) IS ARCHIVAL INK THAT LASTS LONGER THAN MOST OF US HUMANS. SO IF YOU WANT A PICTURE TO LAST, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO BUY THEIR INK…

    Published: April 9, 2007 9:03 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    scineram,

    you don’t have any real arguments in support of such claim. In absolutely free market you would still have legal means to contractually prevent your customers from reproducing your item, while tort law would protect you against third parties by punishing their trespass (unauthorized use).

    —–

    Kevin B.,

    Not too many people think about property rights, including judges (sadly).

    ——-

    Rene,

    In the era of digitalization, we care about that less and less… We print and rip, and then print again, unlike the developed pictures back in the day… But you refill archival ink anyway and many sellers offer it at smaller prices.

    Published: April 9, 2007 9:23 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    Sasha Radeta,
    We went over this: there is a perfectly fine anarcho-capitalist way of protecting your copyrights and trademarks (patents only to the extent of copyright protection)

    This issue is not about copyrights or trademarks.

    They can only establish a monopoly in their stupid and absurd product — and there are plenty of other companies that can offer superior goods and services.

    The problem is with how they establish the monopoly – that is, by government fiat. There is no contractual agreement here with which to back yourself, Sasha – I have no obligation to buy Epson’s cartridges. However, by way of phony “property rights” they can damned sure make their competitors stop selling me theirs. THAT is contrary to one of the main tennets of liberty: uncoerced, voluntary transactions.

    Published: April 9, 2007 10:23 PM

  • Brent

    Without the government’s IP regime, what kind of company would try to sell and enforce a “no ink, except from us” contract stipulation? The idea of such a contract is perfectly libertarian IMO, but these companies, in today’s world, use the government to shutdown competing businesses — notice that they don’t dare directly confront their customers. Maybe they don’t try to enforce their “IP” via contracts precisely because customers would balk at the idea.

    Published: April 9, 2007 10:49 PM

  • Calypso

    To digress, but make a point: Anybody heard of Weatherby Arms? They created their own calibres, the firearms for them, and the ammunition that was only available from them.

    Published: April 9, 2007 10:51 PM

  • Brent

    A cheap way to encourage brand loyalty is through warranty contracts. But if I was CEO and I could literally sue other businesses for selling ink that can be used in my printer… sue them for many millions or even billions of dollars… I know I would be replaced if I didn’t.

    Published: April 9, 2007 11:08 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Francisco,

    I know this is not a free-market copyright issue, but in a completely free market it would have been (since we don’t have an issue of independent discovery in Epson’s case)…

    I know that we currently don’t have anarcho-capitalism. When you try to “convince” me about that, you only create a “straw-man” pseudo argument. However, even if we wake up in a perfectly free market, Epson could obtain the same kind of protection — through “uncoerced, voluntary transactions.” That’s what many forget when they scream against any form of so-called I.P., offering a communal use of someone else’s good as an alternative.

    —–

    Brent,

    The state’s coercion did not leave logical space for an alternative method of copyright protection. We are moving toward the world in which the state could monopolize the protection of all forms of private property rights, but that does not mean that we should scream against these rights (…just using an analogy).

    ——

    Calypso,

    Wonderful example that responds to Dr. Kinsella’s rifle analogy. However, I don’t think that many people heard about that company (imagine if large militias or militaries voluntarily become dependant on one company’s whim) — and that was exactly my point.

    Published: April 9, 2007 11:14 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    I know that we currently don’t have anarcho-capitalism. When you try to “convince” me about that, you only create a “straw-man” pseudo argument.

    Who is making that argument? What I pointed out is that this is not a copyright issue.

    However, even if we wake up in a perfectly free market, Epson could obtain the same kind of protection — through “uncoerced, voluntary transactions.”

    That is utterly false, Sasha. Epson does not own the idea Ink Cartridge, so how could they enforce ownership of it on an unfettered market?

    That’s what many forget when they scream against any form of so-called I.P., offering a communal [sic] use of someone else’s good as an alternative.

    Now, THAT is a strawman argument.

    Published: April 9, 2007 11:32 PM

  • Sam

    Has there been other times where I complain about monopolistic behaviour and others counter-complain that ‘as long as there’s competition everything going to be all right’? So what if a certain printer manufacturer create printers that can only use their expensive cartridges? As long as there are other printer manufacturers who are more polite then the big bad pseudo-monopolist loses lotsa revenue for their lack of flexibility?

    Yet what’s technically wrong with a business creating a product that requires such specialist maintenance? Is that sort of complaining mean that it’s similarly wrong when, in ye old days before I.P., designers, such as Leonardo Da Vinci, deliberately put flaws in their blueprints to thwart would-be plan-copiers?

    Published: April 9, 2007 11:50 PM

  • Brent

    Sam,

    The point is not that some person or business designs their product with the intention of selling future services for their product. Instead, the issue is whether the people who purchased that product — and they do have complete ownership of it in the case of these printers — have the right to service it themselves. What is happening is that people are finding better ways to service their own printers, which they rightfully own, and the businesses that manufactured the printers are using the government to shutdown these alternative service providers.

    Published: April 10, 2007 1:36 AM

  • Libby

    There is nothing wrong with what Epson is doing. Bottom line is that you don’t have to buy it and I certainly never will. Refilling is one of my top priorities when I go looking for a new printer. Fortunately Canon makes great printers that also are easy to refill, but even if HP or some other company made better printers, I would still factor in the refill ability.

    The choice is yours, the only person to blame for buying a printer that can’t be refilled is YOU. It also comes down to competition. If enough people won’t buy printers that can’t be refilled, then manufacturers would get the hint. Obviously this is not enough of an issue yet with consumers who are willing to buy cartridges at full price.

    Published: April 10, 2007 3:18 AM

  • Libby

    In my opinion, a lot of these so called anarcho-capitalists are just socialists in disguise who want to leech off of other people’s hard work. If I create a product, I should be able to set the terms of its use. YOU DON’T HAVE TO ACCEPT AND BUY IT!

    That’s right, it’s a two way street. The point is that these are useful products or valuable information that you want for nothing. You gain a lot of pleasure/utility from using these things and so the choice is yours to refrain from using them or accept the terms set by the owner. It is not YOUR right to enjoy what someone else has created.

    Published: April 10, 2007 3:26 AM

  • Niels van der Linden

    Nobody knows what free market arbiters and contracts will lead to. The point of market anarchy is to stop trying to design society.

    Published: April 10, 2007 6:49 AM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Libby, It’s not that what Epson is doing is “wrong”; they are operating rationally given the current system. The issue is: why should the state grant a patent monopoly? In this case we have a manufacturer spending R&D to intentionally find a way to put some design into the cartridge not to improve it, but simply so that it makes any cartridge not having the design incompatible with the printer. The innovation’s purpose is not the innovation itself but merely as a way to “tie” the cartridge, legally, to the printer, via the patent monopoloy grant. The patent system is supposed to encourage innovation; what results is strategizing by companies trying to find ways to exploit the Letters of Marque (I like that turn of phrase). This is all anti-private property, anti-market.

    Published: April 10, 2007 8:04 AM

  • Person

    Stephan_Kinsella, doesn’t the patent on the cartridge allow Epson to sell printers for much less than they would otherwise? Essentially allowing customers to buy on installment without touching the credit system? Now, maybe you think they shouldn’t be allowed to operate this way because it ulimately relies on IP enforcement. But you can hardly claim that’s not innovation: customers *like* cheap printers, even if it means expensive cartridges!

    Published: April 10, 2007 8:16 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    Person,
    Stephan_Kinsella, doesn’t the patent on the cartridge allow Epson to sell printers for much less than they would otherwise?

    You’re begging the question. For much less compared to what? Compared to whom? Epson has to compete with others for the printer market, which means that competition (and the market) is what drives the printer prices, so you cannot say Epson would sell their printers at a different price than what the market would allow, sans IP Law.

    Published: April 10, 2007 9:48 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    Libby,
    If I create a product, I should be able to set the terms of its use. YOU DON’T HAVE TO ACCEPT AND BUY IT!

    It is more than obvious that Epson cannot impose nor enforce a terms of use upon their customers(*), so they simply go to Daddy-Government to quelch the competition. So it is not as simplistic as you imply.

    (*) Epson has to compete with many other manufacturers, so it would be bad business policy to try to bully their own customers into buying their cartridges. So they simply make a roundabout of the Market and use the incidious IP Law to achieve similar results. What the market won’t deliver [passive, compliant customers], why, the government sure will, wouldn’t it?

    Published: April 10, 2007 9:58 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    It is not YOUR right to enjoy what someone else has created.

    Libby, Epson did not invent the **Ink Cartridge**, they manufacture AN ink cartridge. What the competition is manufacturing is COMPATIBLE ink cartridges that compete with Epson’s.

    Published: April 10, 2007 10:13 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    A similar case can be found here. Again, a manufacturer, Lexmark, tried surreptitiously to use copyright (i.e. phony property) law to stop another company from using compatible microchips that would allow competing brands to sell ink cartridges that would work on Lexmark machines. The premise was that the microships used a program that, in “essence”, was very similar to the handshaking program that Lexmark developed and thus created a copyright violation. As an everyday programmer, I know that that is pure B.S. – the program itself is just an engineering solution that anyone can come up with. It was like trying to copyright the movements needed to use a hammer to hit a nail.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int%27l_v._Static_Control_Components

    Published: April 10, 2007 10:29 AM

  • Nybble

    Libby: “. . . If I create a product, I should be able to set the terms of its use.”

    False. When you sell something, such as a printer, a CD, or a book, you no longer have any say in how it can be used. That’s what it means to transfer ownership. You may be able to get the buyer to agree to a separate contract predicated on specific behaviors as one of the terms of the sale (e.g. “If you copy this book, or allow a copy to be made, then you agree to give me original book, any copies you may own, and $500.”); such contracts may influence the buyer’s behavior by attaching consequences, but fulfilling the condition of the contract (i.e. making a copy) remains the buyer’s right, however costly. Contracts can only transfer rights by transferring property; they can’t create or destroy them.

    Libby: “YOU DON’T HAVE TO ACCEPT AND BUY IT!”

    This might be relevant if there was a formal contract involved. As it is the only contract accepted is the implicit one created by the exchange of money for the printer (or CD/book/etc.). You could try to argue for an implicit contract, but I think you’d have a hard time of it. The sale contract was easy; I took the printer and the seller took my money. The terms, and our acceptance of the same, were obvious. Furthermore, the implicit sale contract covers the absolute minimum necessary to make the exchange legal (as opposed to mutual theft).

    Libby: “It is not YOUR right to enjoy what someone else has created.”

    Fortunately such positive rights are not required. I own the item in which the information is embedded. Nothing gives anyone else the right to prevent me from (or punish me for) extracting that information and using it for any purpose I choose, or to prevent me from communicating that information to others for any purpose whatsoever. Neither action constitutes any kind of tort, and I have accepted no contractual obligations extending past the point of sale.

    Niels van der Linden: “Nobody knows what free market arbiters and contracts will lead to. The point of market anarchy is to stop trying to design society.”

    Exactly so, and the whole point of non-contractual copyrights and patents is to “design society” to include more artistic works and innovations than would otherwise be created.

    Published: April 10, 2007 10:38 AM

  • DC

    That’s what many forget when they scream against any form of so-called I.P., offering a communal [sic] use of someone else’s good as an alternative.Now, THAT is a strawman argument.

    Exactly. Sasha’s system would require that companies rent out copyrighted goods, never actually selling the physical property itself. This is clearly not how markets have historically developed, nor is it how they currently function.

    It is most likely that people will buy and sell property in a free market (as they do now, despite government intervention) and not “rent” particular services to be enjoyed under very specific conditions.

    Sasha’s “communal” criticism can’t possibly apply to a system of private ownership. He presupposes his linchpin — that on a free market goods would be “rented” and not bought and sold — in order to make this claim. Simply assume that history will carry on as it has, and Sasha’s objection disappears.

    (Not to mention that even Sasha’s system can’t protect content in the way that he seems to think that it does — at least not without coercion — although this has been discussed ad nauseum in many other comment threads).

    Published: April 10, 2007 10:40 AM

  • Person

    Francisco:You’re begging the question. For much less compared to what? Compared to whom? Epson has to compete with others for the printer market, which means that competition (and the market) is what drives the printer prices, so you cannot say Epson would sell their printers at a different price than what the market would allow, sans IP Law.

    *sigh*

    1) I’m not begging any question because I didn’t assert that Epson’s pricing structure justified IP.

    2) I quite clearly specified what I was comparing to: if Espon couldn’t use patents to protect its business model, their best option without it would be to sell printers for more and the ink for less.

    3) The fact the Epson would sell for different prices in different circumstances in no way contradicts the fact that competition with other providers determines the prices it can charge.

    4) Drop the “sans” bit. It doesn’t make you look any snazzier.

    Try again, and this time, go for “big picture”.

    Published: April 10, 2007 10:57 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    […]said Epson’s director of consumer supplies Elizabeth Leung in a statement. “These lawsuits were filed as part of Epson’s worldwide efforts to protect the company from unfair competition.

    I do not know if she intended to be funny or if she was being serious.

    Published: April 10, 2007 11:25 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    1) I’m not begging any question because I didn’t assert that Epson’s pricing structure justified IP.

    I did not imply such a thing. You beg the question by thinking that Epson is selling printers at a price that is below a certain value, thanks to IP. Which value would that be? You are assuming that this value exists, so you are begging the question.

    I did not know that using “sans” would make me sound more or less snazzier. I used the word because it is precise and concise.

    Published: April 10, 2007 11:28 AM

  • Brent

    Libby,

    Please read the discussion more closely. Your idea is bordering on merchantilist.

    Person,

    You speak about plausible business strategies within today’s legal environment (which is also changing as courts make rulings, IP statutes are changed, etc.) as if business strategies are completely relevant to this discussion. I don’t see how they are germane.

    Published: April 10, 2007 11:34 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Francisco,

    I know that you said that this is “not a copyright issue” – but in a completely free market Epson would use the copyright protection through contracts and/or torts. Therefore, your response is meaningless. This IS a copyright issue in a perfectly free-market that we want.

    Nybble and DC don’t understand that in perfectly free market you would be free to sell only a certain use of YOUR goods, while excluding people from other, far more expensive uses. These are not “positive rights”…. Oh, by the way, markets DO function like that. You currently cannot obtain full ownership (legal control of all services that can be derived from a good) of any copyrighted product – yet, you still decide to buy these restricted uses. If we abolished the state, firms would be forced to restrict unwanted uses through contracts and tort – but the copyright protections would remain intact.

    If some seller does not want to sell you the full ownership of his good – that is his basic right and you can’t do anything about it. It would be nothing but a fraud and theft to accept the copyrighted terms of use on a book — and then decide that you no longer accept that and to declare that the entire community has the right to use it online (communism).

    Published: April 10, 2007 11:37 AM

  • Person

    Francisco: Just to clarify, what do you think the “question” is, that I’m begging?

    Brent: You speak about plausible business strategies within today’s legal environment (which is also changing as courts make rulings, IP statutes are changed, etc.) as if business strategies are completely relevant to this discussion. I don’t see how they are germane.

    That’s because you didn’t read the post where I mentioned it. Why don’t you give it a shot?

    Published: April 10, 2007 12:20 PM

  • Kevin Carson

    Sasha,

    In a free market anarchy, though, there would be no exogenous contract enforcement mechanisms funded from general tax revenues. Contract enforcement services would be funded by those who benefit from them. And it would be quite costly to verify violations of “copyright” contracts, especially against alleged third party violators.

    What’s more, if the court system assigned burden of proof to the plaintiff, there wouldn’t be the kinds of intrusive surveillance the state has mandated at the behest of the Copyright Nazis at the RIAA and MPAA.

    Contractually-based, free market copyright law might be a theoretical possibility, but it’s a lot less likely to be worth it to a “property” rights claimant operating on his own nickel.

    Published: April 10, 2007 12:38 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, it is strange what you have attributed to me. Take, for example:

    Nybble and DC don’t understand that in perfectly free market you would be free to sell only a certain use of YOUR goods, while excluding people from other, far more expensive uses.

    No, I understand this completely, and whether or not people and firms are free to do so is irrelevant to my argument.

    You write further:

    Oh, by the way, markets DO function like that. You currently cannot obtain full ownership (legal control of all services that can be derived from a good) of any copyrighted product – yet, you still decide to buy these restricted uses.

    They only work that way through aggression, thanks to the government.

    If we abolished the state, firms would be forced to restrict unwanted uses through contracts and tort – but the copyright protections would remain intact.

    Or they will continue to do what they seem to have done throughout history. It’s without precedent to think that the most natural transition to a free market would include nearly every firm switching gears and selling only specialized services, rather than the goods themselves. That’s all that I’m pointing out.

    Published: April 10, 2007 12:51 PM

  • Sasha radeta

    Kevin,

    I never argued that in anarcho-capitalism we would have “exogenous contract enforcement mechanisms funded from general tax revenues” as you imputed, nor I argued in favor of such system… Yet another straw-man…

    I only said that sellers that want copyright protections (and many of them do) can obtain it even in a perfectly free market. Therefore, there is no need to scream against the application of private property rights.

    ——–

    DC,

    Once again…, your statement regarding limited terms of use:“This is clearly not how markets have historically developed, nor is it how they currently function” – is simply incorrect.

    Free markets allow rents and contractual terms of use, since according to Mises “ownership is a full control of services that can be derived from a good” — which implies the owners’ right to restrict unwanted use of one kind, while allowing and selling other uses…

    The fact that the state established the monopoly over copyright protection, does not change the fact that many sellers will always have a right to sell limited kinds of use of their goods — and that many buyers do not object to that (since they choose to obtain limited use of many goods today). There is no reason to assume that in a perfectly free market Epson and other companies would not use the copyright protection through contracts and torts — and there is no reason to assume that customers that currently buy limited use of copyrighted items would not do the same in anarchy.

    You can object the state monopoly in copyrights, but if you claim that copyrights would not lawfully exist in perfectly free market, you are simply wrong.

    Regards.

    Published: April 10, 2007 1:34 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, you again seem to attribute something to me that I explicitly denied.

    You write: “You can object the state monopoly in copyrights, but if you claim that copyrights would not lawfully exist in perfectly free market, you are simply wrong.”

    Either this is irrelevant to what I have said, or you think that I’m making this claim. But I stated specifically: “No, I understand this [DC: that firms would be free to make such contracts] completely, and whether or not people and firms are free to do so is irrelevant to my argument.”

    Of course firms will be free to use contracts in the way that you are claiming. (Although this won’t have quite the effect that you suppose, as has been shown in many other comment threads). Nevertheless, their freedom to do so is irrelevant to my argument above.

    Here is where you get off-base, I think. You write:

    There is no reason to assume that customers that currently buy limited use of copyrighted items would not do the same in anarchy.

    In the first place, people do not currently buy “limited use” of physical objects. They buy the physical objects, and their use of it is restricted through aggression. That’s why it’s strange to assume that firms in the free market will suddenly only “rent” items, and not sell them, as they currently do.

    Go ahead and argue that in a free market your contractual, renting, copyright might function. (Again, I don’t think that it will to the extent that you suppose). However, it’s clear from history that precedent is not on your side. If the market continues to function absent aggression, there would be no copyright unless firms shift from selling items to renting them in Sasha-copyright-esque arrangements.

    Published: April 10, 2007 1:58 PM

  • Nybble

    Sasha: “Nybble and DC don’t understand that in perfectly free market you would be free to sell only a certain use of YOUR goods, while excluding people from other, far more expensive uses.”

    In which case you’re not selling any property at all; you’re just renting it out. In order to maintain any control over its use you must retain the ownership, and even then your control over its “use” is not absolute. I have no intention of renting everyday items like CDs, books, printers, etc., and I feel that any attempt to shift to such a model is doomed to fail. (You’re free to try it, of course.)

    Even assuming that you successfully implement such a model, however, you still can’t exercise effective control over what people observe about the property while they’re using it, or place hard limitations (tort claims, as opposed to contractual fines voluntarily agreed to by the buyer/renter) on how the products of such observations are employed. The exclusive rights of the property owner do not extend so far.

    Published: April 10, 2007 2:21 PM

  • Kevin B.

    I would like to point out that there is at least one company that leases printers with a significant discount if you agree to purchase only their ink refills. Xerox currently does this. The company I work for has had such a contract for nearly a year now.

    Published: April 10, 2007 2:40 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    DC,

    Many people here are against voluntary copyright contracts even in the free-market case. I assumed you were one of them. mea culpa.

    HOWEVER – you were incorrect in stating the following:

    In the first place, people do not currently buy “limited use” of physical objects.

    That is incorrect sir! When it comes to copyrighted items, people do not buy full ownership (unlimited use) of these items. Nobody is forcing people to buy copyrighted items at a point of a gun — and nobody forces sellers to exercise their copyrights. It is ludicrous to suggest that these parties would not continue to exchange the same kind of limited product use and money, even in anarcho-capitalism.

    =====

    Nybble,

    Consumers currently don’t acquire full ownerships over copyrighted items… As far as monitoring of copyright violations goes, we can only assume that it will be more efficient in a free private competition — than today.

    Published: April 10, 2007 3:02 PM

  • Nybble

    Kevin B.: “I would like to point out that there is at least one company that leases printers with a significant discount if you agree to purchase only their ink refills. Xerox currently does this. . . .”

    True. I was referring to the home market; leasing becomes more practical when you’re dealing with the sort of expensive, high-volume printers that Xerox deals in, just as NDAs (similar to Sasha’s “copyright contracts”) really do exist in places where it is practical to enforce them. The mass-production consumer market is not such a place, however.

    Leasing make a lot more sense for businesses than it does for individuals, and it would be almost impossible to enforce an NDA when there are millions of buyers, any one of whom could have disclosed the information. For typical entertainment media — and even relatively expensive items like printers or ink cartridges — the cost of enforcing a “copyright contract” would be far higher than the price of the item itself, particularly considering that the enforcement costs would no longer be tax-subsidized.

    Published: April 10, 2007 3:23 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, most people here are not against voluntary arrangements of any kind. It is when aggression is introduced that they react, and rightly so.

    You write:

    That is incorrect sir! When it comes to copyrighted items, people do not buy full ownership (unlimited use) of these items. Nobody is forcing people to buy copyrighted items at a point of a gun — and nobody forces sellers to exercise their copyrights. It is ludicrous to suggest that these parties would not continue to exchange the same kind of limited product use and money, even in anarcho-capitalism.

    Products such as books are declared to be under copyright by government edict, whether the producer recognizes it or not (or chooses to have the government enforce it or not). Therefore, it is invalid to argue that anyone voluntarily agrees to copyright contracts, or that copyright as we have it is voluntary.

    The common understanding is that, when I buy a book, I own it. If a friend of mine sells me a book that he’s used, no contract is signed with the publisher. In fact, my purchasing of the book, regardless of the seller, is not a tacit signature on a copyright contract with the publisher. If a publisher wants to show that I’ve breached a voluntary arrangement, they can feel free at any time to produce a contract that I’ve signed.

    Copyright adds conditions to my buying a book that violate my ownership of it, without my consent. If a publisher wants to own a book but let me “rent” narrow services derived from it to me, they are free to market it that way and have the necessary contracts on hand to let that arrangement happen. As it stands, though, when I buy a book, I sign no such contract; I own it.

    Published: April 10, 2007 3:32 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Nybble,

    Selling only limited kinds of use makes sense for people who invest large sums of money to develop it. In the absence of government intervention, copyright contracts and tort would naturally replace current laws and their enforcement would not be any less efficient than our current nationalized system.

    —-

    DC,

    Many people here (RTR and others) openly advocated violations of contracts and freedom of trespass (unauthorized use), justifying it with communal needs. Once again, mea culpa for placing you in that group.

    The fact that books are now copyrighted by government’s edict does not change the fact that authors can choose not to be protected under copyright. Yet, they don’t do that, since the “shareware” would kill their business. Also no one is forcing consumers to purchase copyrighted items and if free-market contracts and property rights replaced current laws — consumers would still continue to buy copyrighted works…

    I am not the advocate of current copyright system — but Murray Rothbard claimed that even today you accept implied contract whenever you purchase a copyrighted item. You know well that with $15-$20 you are not buying the full ownership of a book (including those expensive publishing rights). Copyright notices are there to remind you of that.

    Published: April 10, 2007 3:52 PM

  • rtr

    Sasha Radeta: “Many people here (RTR and others) openly advocated violations of contracts and freedom of trespass (unauthorized use), justifying it with communal needs.”

    So did you advocate violations of contracts moron. If a woman promises or writes a contract to have sex with someone in the future, she can change her mind at any time with no damages whatsoever. You agreed with that example. He’s just slow to make the conection from physical bodily compulsion to physical non bodily material compulsion.

    Still searching for justifications to compel slavery and servitude I see. I guess he’s still upset over the example whereby he contractually agreed to transfer all his production for a pencil and is now merely still living on bare subsistence by our good graces. He’s “free” not to produce anything, which I guess explains the garbage he posts.

    Nor did I ever use the term “communal needs”.

    Sasha Radeta lies, ignores proof, and repeats his idiocy ad nauseum. I’m through taking anything he says seriously. He’s an uneducated clown. And I’m far from the only one posting here who has come to the same conclusion.

    Published: April 10, 2007 4:58 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    RTR,

    “Post an intelligent and civil comment”

    I know that you suffer from a nervous breakdown, but try to control yourself a little.

    Mere promises of services are not contract. Contracts always must presuppose the exchange of goods and services. Hence, by saying that a woman in your example can change her mind I did not advocate any contract violation.

    However, if a party accepts money and refuses to perform services promised by contract, that party will be responsible for damages, based on the value of those services not delivered. You can’t force anyone to work, because we don’t believe in slavery… but no theft will be permitted.

    Nevertheless, aforementioned examples have nothing to do with copyright contracts, which are perfectly valid exchanges of goods and services. People have a right to sell limited use of their product — and they also have a right not to buy these services back from you, if you don’t like them anymore. You can destroy it or set it aside… At any rate, you cannot lawfully use someone else’s property in ways that you did not pay for. You can’t legally rent someone’s apartment for residential use and then change your mind and turn it into your whore-house.

    I am glad that RTR showed to DC what kind of unintelligent scum opposes copyright.

    Published: April 10, 2007 6:27 PM

  • rtr

    I don’t respect losers like Sasha Radeta that call for civil comments after starting with uncivil comments. Why is it uncivil comments only seem to be a problem with you? You were utterly defeated in the last round and are still in denial. You ignored everyone’s examples and comments which attacked your specific sentences, and just resorted to repeating exactly what you had written before. I have no desire whatsoever to waste my time arguing with you again. It’s all on the record, post for post, and I’m entirely satisfied with that.

    /goodbye

    P.S. It sure would be nice to be able to ignore reading comments from specific posters.

    Published: April 10, 2007 7:00 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    RTR,

    Everyone can see who started with uncivil comments on this thread.

    —-

    Only so called voidable contracts could be subject to being unmade at the election of one party. Examples of voidable contracts are:
    • A contract entered into by a minor (under the age of 18) for non essentials.
    • A contract signed by a person under the influence of substances such as illegal drugs, alcohol or medicines.
    • A contract involving fraud in the inducement or material misrepresentation.
    • A contract entered into by a person with limited mental capacity.

    I hope that RTR’s position (that he can unilaterally void any contract) is not coming from this last condition. Enforceable contracts can only cease to exist when both parties fulfill it or revoke it.

    Published: April 10, 2007 7:36 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, if you read what I’ve written above, you will see that this:

    The fact that books are now copyrighted by government’s edict does not change the fact that authors can choose not to be protected under copyright.

    Is irrelevant to my claims. Your argument is still invalid, whether or not some producers can choose against enacting the copyright that exists on their product thanks to government edict.

    You write: “and if free-market contracts and property rights replaced current laws — consumers would still continue to buy copyrighted works…”

    Perhaps. It is clear that a free-market copyright system would function far differently than common practice today, though, which is all I’m here to point out.

    You write:

    I am not the advocate of current copyright system — but Murray Rothbard claimed that even today you accept implied contract whenever you purchase a copyrighted item. You know well that with $15-$20 you are not buying the full ownership of a book (including those expensive publishing rights). Copyright notices are there to remind you of that.

    No, I don’t “know full well,” as if that is common knowledge and practice. Certainly you keep asserting that it is common practice, but I’m still waiting for some semblance of proof. The whole “full ownership” bit you keep trying to push isn’t how things currently work. Go to any person’s house, point to a book on their bookshelf, and ask them whose property it is.

    Copyrights aren’t there to remind me of a contract to which I implicitly agreed. The publisher can produce any contract that I’ve signed if they want to prove my contractual obligations. Until then, or until the general practice of book-selling changes, I own the books that I buy; they are my property.

    Published: April 11, 2007 6:06 AM

  • Brent

    Person,

    I have no idea what you are talking about. Business strategy, as far as pricing structure, is your only point? If that’s it, then fine, but I thought you were trying to say something about IP.

    Published: April 11, 2007 11:56 AM

  • Person

    Brent: maybe I was trying to say something about Stephan_Kinsella’s post. You know, the one right before mine. You might have been able to deduce that from the fact that I addressed it to him.

    Well, there’s your clue! Now, go find the relevance of my comment, which should have been obvious the first time around!

    Published: April 11, 2007 12:09 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    Person,
    Francisco: Just to clarify, what do you think the “question” is, that I’m begging?

    Assuming what you conclude is called “begging the question”. You ask a question to Mr. Kinsella that implies Epson is in fact selling their printers at a supposed lower price . . . – than what?

    Published: April 11, 2007 12:55 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    even today you accept implied contract whenever you purchase a copyrighted item. You know well that with $15-$20 you are not buying the full ownership of a book (including those expensive publishing rights)

    It seems logical then to assume that cross-border purchases of such books would not necessarily imply copyright contract agreement.

    Published: April 11, 2007 12:58 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    uh… what?

    —-

    Francisco,

    My statement is relevant. The fact is:

    – sellers and buyers currently CHOOSE to trade in markets for limited use of many goods (buyers don’t mind not getting full ownership rights on books, etc.) and there is no reason why would that stop in a free market (since sellers in anarcho-capitalism could choose to be protected by tort and contractual copyright).

    Again, in order to prove that in anarcho-capitalism all these innovators and designers would go crazy and started selling full ownership of their valuable goods — you have to explain why don’t they do that currently.

    Anyway, I guess we both agree that markets should decide – not the government. I hope our disagreements about the compatibility of copyright with private property rights are now in the past tense. Regards.

    Published: April 11, 2007 1:11 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    I know that you said that this is “not a copyright issue” – but in a completely free market Epson would use the copyright protection through contracts and/or torts.

    Lexmark already tried the “copyright violation” scheme and got rebuffed, for the simple reason that it is not a copyright scheme – nobody is copying an “idea” since the concept “ink cartrige” already exists. Please drop the premise.


    Nybble and DC don’t understand that in perfectly free market you would be free to sell only a certain use of YOUR goods, while excluding people from other, far more expensive uses.

    That would not be “selling”, Sacha, that would ne called “leasing”.

    Be that as it may, Epson is not suing its customers for using its “property” in a different way as agreed. It is suing the competition for offering competing products that are compatible to Epson’s. How is that copyright violation seems to escape me, the two judges from the 6th circuit Supreme Court that told Lexmark to take a hike (after Lexmark tried using that argument) and basically the rest of the known world, but you.

    Published: April 11, 2007 1:12 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    I’m guessing that you mean the copyright is accepted because the buyer knows that he will be subject to copyright law, since there is no stated contract limiting the use of the product.

    My question is: What about product trade between two different juridictions – such as the U.S. and some other territory that doesn’t recognize U.S. copyright law? What is your opinion?

    BTW, I believe it is going too far to say that buyers should think that they don’t fully own something that comes cheaply.

    Published: April 11, 2007 1:36 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, you are simply repeating the same bald assertion again and again, and calling it an argument. I understand that this is the position that you hold, but consider:

    Your argument is that people are currently “renting” any book that they buy voluntarily, and so this practice would be likely to continue in a libertarian society. I counter that this reasoning is invalid, since government currently declares all works copyrighted by fiat — in other words, we aren’t seeing contractual agreement at work, but blanket aggression. We can’t be seeing voluntary agreements until the government lifts its heavy hands from the industry — then we will see if copyright continues on a contractual basis. Perhaps you’re right, but things as they are do not support your view, since we aren’t seeing voluntarily what you claim will continue.

    Common sense and every day experience also informs us that people believe that they are buying — that is, acquiring the property title to — the books that they buy. No one speaks of book-buying as “leasing” or “acquiring partial ownership rights of” or “not acquiring full use of” or other nonsense. If I buy a book, then I own it. This is the most obvious understanding of the typical bookstore transaction. It is not assumed that I have signed an elaborate special-use and limited-ownership contract.

    Thus, your argument seems both invalid and unsound.

    The burden of proof is on your side. Stop shifting it with mere assertions that you are describing things as they currently function. Use some evidence, counter what I’ve said with something of substance. That would be a start to defending yourself.

    Published: April 11, 2007 1:42 PM

  • Nybble

    rtr: “P.S. It sure would be nice to be able to ignore reading comments from specific posters.”

    Here is a Greasemonkey script to do just that. (Requires the Firefox web browser.)

    Published: April 11, 2007 2:36 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    sellers and buyers currently CHOOSE to trade in markets for limited use of many goods (buyers don’t mind not getting full ownership rights on books, etc.)

    Unless you do daily surveys of all buyers, you cannot really mean that they choose to trade that way. It is clear they do not, otherwise those sellers would not go to Big Daddy Government for “protection”.

    and there is no reason why would that stop in a free market

    They would stop because the competition would be nmore than happy not to bug their customers with such meaningless agreements. THAT is the very reason some sellers rely on the government, i.e. having to compete, and not because of the free market.

    (since sellers in anarcho-capitalism could choose to be protected by tort and contractual copyright).

    They would probably choose. Why buyers would even bother buying from them is another issue. Again, if a seller tried to sell something with such provisos, they would be leaving the door open to competitors who would be more than happy to sell without such hindrances.

    You assume that copyright law and IP were created out of a market need, but this is incorrect – it was created out of a need NOT to leave your luck to the devices of the free market, instead relying on Big Daddy Goons-with-Guns (i.e. the government) to “protect” a supplier from the free market and competition. The same goes with patent law.

    Published: April 11, 2007 2:44 PM

  • Matt

    Another possibility would be for Epson to offer really amazing tech support/warranty/replacement services for their printers but inform the customer upfront that all of this is void if another brand of cartridge is used.

    That would be asier than suing the other manufacturers with IP laws, cheaper, and more respectful of consumer choice.

    Published: April 11, 2007 3:02 PM

  • Person

    Francisco:Assuming what you conclude is called “begging the question”. You ask a question to Mr. Kinsella that implies Epson is in fact selling their printers at a supposed lower price . . . – than what?

    Let’s try this again. I know what “begging the question” is. What I just asked you, is, “what question am I begging?” That is, what *conclusion* are you accusing me of *assuming* in my argument? And I already answered your question there, at least two times: Epson is selling their printers at less than they would if it were impossible to exclude competition in selling ink for their printes.

    Published: April 11, 2007 3:10 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Francisco said:

    Lexmark already tried the “copyright violation” scheme and got rebuffed, for the simple reason that it is not a copyright scheme – nobody is copying an “idea” since the concept “ink cartrige” already exists. Please drop the premise.

    First of all dude, copyright is not about exclusive rights over some idea or concept. If Epson managed to differentiate their cartridge, they can easily prove in court that someone violated their copyright agreement or committed an unauthorized use by replicating such unique product.

    Epson is NOT suing the competition for offering competing products that are compatible to Epson’s! As you could find out from Dr. Kinsella’s introduction to this thread, they invested their resources into differentiating their cartridges and now they want to punish unauthorized copycats.

    By the way, leasing is selling. It is selling of range of services derived from someone’s good, without ownership transfer.

    =========================

    Kevin B,

    International treaties that regulate disputes between two or more jurisdictions and international law. That’s your answer.

    ==============

    DC, Francisco (second posting)

    Your response was ludicrous. Sellers can easily avoid being protected by copyright even today, if they think that “shareware” can make them more profitable (when related services cost a lot more than goods sold). Book authors, for example, are not crazy to put their books in free circulation and they would not go crazy in a perfectly free market (since their customers today don’t object to copyright, as evidenced by their willingness to currently purchase new books).

    Once again, sellers can easily avoid copyright protection – just like they can avoid it in anarcho-capitalism. On the other hand, they can have that protection in both systems. Think for a moment and finally understand that all these wonderful, creative people (including Mises Institute) are not evil for not removing copyright today (or tomorrow in a perfectly free market).

    Published: April 11, 2007 10:01 PM

  • averros

    Sasha – you seem to lack comprehension of the simple fact: that contracts can bind ONLY PARTIES TO THE CONTRACT.

    Copyrights bind EVERYONE.

    So if person B bought some book from A with a contract stipulating that B shouldn’t make copies, and later A sees C selling cleary bootlegged copies of that book, A has NO way to claim that C has violated the contract, for there’s none. It cannot even compel C to tell where he got the text of the book. [I do not mean the current system of enforced snitching, of course].

    Now, if A can find out who that contract-violating B is, A could take B to court and ask for compensation for the violation of the contract clause. For which the damages have to be specified in the contract itself, since it is a “non-performance” clause, and A suffered no loss of anything he already posessed, but rather lost some opportunity.

    Obviously, this is not how the copyrigths work.

    There is NO WAY to implement any regime similar to copyrights using contracts. None. Whatsoever.

    Published: April 11, 2007 11:20 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    averros,

    Property rights bind EVERYONE!

    Suppose I (person A) lease you (person B) a house under a condition that you don’t turn it into a place of prostitution (otherwise you will pay a stiff penalty, because commercial use of that sort costs a lot of money).

    Now, imagine that you go to Europe for a month and during that period some guy (person C) breaks into my house and turn it into a brothel.

    Would I have a case against person C? Absolutely! He did not commit a breach of contract – but he did TRESPASS (unauthorized use) against my property, which resulted in TORT of financial injury (I was not compensated for an expensive use of my property).

    ===============

    Now going back to your example:

    Person A would definitely have a case against person C! Person C did not have any authorization to use person A’s property, and that’s a trespass by definition. Person C unlawfully assumed expensive rights, for which legal publishers must pay dearly — which constitutes the tort of financial injury, par excellence.

    This is precisely why I accentuated that free-market copyright would function either through contract or tort. In my message posted at April 10, 2007 3:52 PM, I said:

    In the absence of government intervention, copyright contracts and tort would naturally replace current laws and their enforcement would not be any less efficient than our current nationalized system.

    I repeated this point even several times before on this thread (referring to Epson). Averros is either not reading very carefully, or he enjoys wasting people’s time.

    Published: April 12, 2007 12:15 AM

  • TLWP Sam

    To F. Torres: patents and copyrights did not come from any fact-of-life needs?!!?!?!!

    Come on, one great basis for bothering with the Capitalism system is that risk and work should be linked with reward. Reward can’t guaranteed for all enterprises and inventions, but if something generates great rewards ideally shouldn’t it go to the lug who bothered to do something in first place?

    If you invent anything and others are free to copy and mass produce it and they get the profits why bother? Talking about contracts and torts sound more or less the same as copyrights and patents. Especially in terms of inventing anything leads you spending a fortune in legal fees trying stop any and all contract-breakers who nowadays could be anywhere in the world. Or could there be private-defense goons for hire to trash any place that is copying your invention? Or should new inventions have self-destruct mechanisms in them to stop others from pulling them apart and figuring out how it works?

    If an inventor can get no reward for inventing anything why bother? And without any protection does that mean innovation is incompatible with free-market Capitalism?

    Published: April 12, 2007 12:34 AM

  • averros

    Sasha –

    Property rights bind EVERYONE!

    So, you claim that information is property. That’s because a text of a book is just information, nothing more, and if you want property rights to apply to the text of the book, you have to assert that information is property.

    Well. Since no one claimed ownership in the letter “A” (which is, undoubtly, information) and I use it extensively in my writing, commingling it with my labor, I hereby declare myself its owner and prohibit you from ever using it again.

    Now you have to either explain why some information is property and other is not, or explain why homesteading is not a valid way to acquire ownership. (Or you can find the rightful owner of letter “A”, and cease trespassing on his property, anyway).

    Wiggle your way out of this logic trap you got yourself into, will you?

    By the way, analogy is not a valid argument, so I’ll simply ignore it. Besides, it is absolutely irrelevant – in my example B broke the terms of contract, and in your analogy B didn’t do anything wrong.

    (In a spirit of fair waring – you’ve got yourself into a logic argument with a mathematican. So now you have only one honourable way out:)

    Published: April 12, 2007 12:36 AM

  • averros

    TLWP —

    If you invent anything and others are free to copy and mass produce it and they get the profits why bother?

    I, being an actual inventor (I used to obtain patents, until I learned what this is all about, – but I certainly didn’t stop inventing), can explain.

    Reason #1: Because it is fun. Without this fun of finding out new and better ways to do things my work would be totally unbearable drudgery.

    Reason #2: Because it adds to my professional reputation. Considerably. Which directly translates into my earning capacity.

    Reason #3: Because I need to come up with big and little nontrivial ways of doing things daily just to get my job done and deliver the products I was hired to create.

    Oh. And from all patents I wrote, I received nothing. They just sunk into patent portfolios of the corporations. Anybody cares to explain how that stimulated my creativity?

    Published: April 12, 2007 12:53 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    O TEMOPORA, O MORES! If you’re indeed a mathematician, you are only showing how deep we have sunk.

    I hope your last posting was just another attempt of wasting my time and does not reflect the effects of Bush’s notorious plan to increase the number of mathematicians. Read more carefully or turn on your cognitive apparatus!

    Information is not property! Physical cartridges are property.

    If you can prove to courts beyond reasonable doubt that someone used (replicated) your physical property without you authorization (either by committing a trespass or breach of contract) — you have a clear case against that person.

    Replicated cartridges serve as physical evidence that either person B committed a breach of contract, or that person C committed an unauthorized use.

    This has nothing to do with your insane charade about letter “A.” The free-market copyright is all about ownership rights. And as you know, “ownership” by definition means “full control of services that can be derived from a good.” This means that we can restrict unwanted uses of our goods, either through contracts, or through tort.

    Go to sleep and stop embarrassing yourself.

    Published: April 12, 2007 1:01 AM

  • tMoC

    And as you know, “ownership” by definition means “full control of services that can be derived from a good.”

    Eh no. It means “full control of a good.” Funny how you redefine every basic word in order to support your warped understanding of property.

    Published: April 12, 2007 4:14 AM

  • DC

    Sasha, it doesn’t appear to me as though you’ve addressed any of the counter-arguments presented.

    Your argument regarding people’s freedom to ‘opt out’ is clearly invalid, since the government currently declares all works copyright, whether or not the producers seek its protection. That they can opt out if they choose is no proof that the system itself is free. Think about money — people are similarly free to ‘opt out’ should they choose, but this doesn’t imply that our monetary system is free. In fact, our government has a similar blanket-aggression edict that enforces something unnatural to the free market.

    Today, producers enjoy the ‘handout’ of copyright from the government at no cost. On the free market, producers would not enjoy this form of subsidy / welfare. They could seek copyright if they wanted, but there would be a cost. Therefore, to say that a free market would function similarly to our current system is both invalid and unsound.

    In addition, you haven’t addressed my counter-argument that our current system does not function the way that you envision free-market copyright working. When people buy books, they have a rightful claim to the property title. The copyright as practiced is tacked on by the government, and it is there to prevent me from using my property in certain ways.

    There is no support for thinking that I only “rent” books from Borders. Rothbard may have envisioned that copyright would function by “renting” certain services derivable from a good, to use your language, but that is not how the system currently works. If it did work that way, then a publisher could produce a contract that I signed stating that I’m renting services of their property. Or, the copyright notice in the book would say something to that effect. As it stands, however, copyright is simply one more bit of regulation on how I can use my property. It is a rule that I have to follow, regardless that it is not the government’s business.

    (Your straw man about my supposed claim of copyright users being evil is irrelevant).

    Published: April 12, 2007 7:24 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    If Epson managed to differentiate their cartridge, they can easily prove in court that someone violated their copyright agreement or committed an unauthorized use by replicating such unique product.

    They did not use that argument, for a good reason – it is absurd. Copyright is understood as the protection of intellectual property, which includes works of artistic output, unique works of art, literature, even programs. An ink cartridge is not a work of art, it is an engineering solution, an invention, which is why the FedGov differentiates copyright from patent law. In this case, the only concept that applies is patent law. Lego already tried the same “copyright” or “trademark violation” scheme when they sued Megablok, and got rebuffed at the court again.

    http://www.megabloks.com/en/corpo/pdf/Mega-Bloks-Appeal.pdf

    Epson is NOT suing the competition for offering competing products that are compatible to Epson’s! As you could find out from Dr. Kinsella’s introduction to this thread, they invested their resources into differentiating their cartridges and now they want to punish unauthorized copycats.

    Sasha, you are grasping at straws here. A differentiation is just that – I can differentiate a hammer by shaping the head differently, but it is still just a hammer. I started with a hammer and ended with a hammer. In this case, the *concept* is still the same: an ink cartridge. Epson started with a cartridge and ended having… a cartridge. That is why Epson is NOT suing the other companies for copyright infringement, but on patent law, since it was the FedGov that issued the patent – certainly NOT because the differentiations are “property”. So there is certainly NO property being trespassed here, only a license or protection granted by the government. The cartridges that are being sold by the competitors use THEIR raw materials, THEIR machines, THEIR engineers, THEIR salespeople. They are THEIR property, and not Epson’s. They just happen to be compatible with an Epson printer.

    Published: April 12, 2007 9:56 AM

  • Francisco Torres

    That is, what *conclusion* are you accusing me of *assuming* in my argument?

    The conclusion is:

    “And I already answered your question there, at least two times: Epson is selling their printers at less than they would if it were impossible to exclude competition in selling ink for their printe[r]s.”

    That is begging the question. You are assuming what you want to prove: that Epson is selling at a certain price that is below… what? One that YOU imagine to be otherwise? Without a reference market price for a printer under no patent laws, it does not make sense to say that Epson is undervaluing its printers.

    Published: April 12, 2007 10:09 AM

  • Person

    Francisco: That is begging the question. You are assuming what you want to prove: that Epson is selling at a certain price that is below… what?

    Francisco, get a clue. That’s not “begging the question”. That’s “disagreeing with you”. I never assumed that conclusion in my argument for it. I pointed out that without the patent that allows it to charge more for ink, it would have to charge more (than it currently does) for the intial printer in order for the whole venture to be profitable. No circularity there.

    People make this argument all the time: “If input X to good Y were less expensive, sellers of Y would sell Y for less.” You wouldn’t respond, “You’re begging the question. For less than … what?”

    Now, go out and learn what “begging the question” *actually means* and then try to articulate what about my post you object to.

    Published: April 12, 2007 10:35 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    In the example averros gave, person C supposedly used a book in person B’s posession to make copies. Person B had a contract, of course, agreeing not to make copies. Well, suppose C had actually listened to A read the book aloud in some public place. Would you consider it trespass if C uses his incredible memory to later write down, word for word, everything he heard? And if that isn’t trespass, then how would it be trespass for C to write down what he hears if B had bought the book without copy rights, but with the right to read the book aloud in a public place?

    Your argument seems to suggest that imitation, even without a prior contract prohibiting the action, can be considered trespass. But humans imitate others’ actions all the time, especially when those actions are beneficial.

    This reminds me of a conversation I had with some people in the Philippines. They told me that they once had raised chickens to sell eggs. They told me that they eventually quit because other people would eventually start selling eggs too. In fact, the people I spoke to gave up on selling anything because they figured someone would just copy them and take away their business.

    I know eggs aren’t the same as printer cartridges, but suppose the original buyers of eggs agreed not to raise chickens themselves to produce eggs for sale. It would be ridiculous to say that it would be trespass for anyone else to raise their own chickens and sell their own version of the egg, even if they got the idea from watching the vendors on the street.

    All that being said, I completely agree with you that contracts limiting imitation could be made and enforced. I do not agree that those rules can be applied to others not party to such an agreement.

    Please note that I am an entreprenuer who would have to adapt if copyright laws were dropped. Since change is inevitable, I will have to adapt anyway. I’d rather adapt to changes spurring more freedom than less.

    Published: April 12, 2007 1:56 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Francisco,

    Read Rothbard! Under contractual copyright and common law tort, Epson could still protect itself against unauthorized replications of its cartridges. I’m not saying that they are doing this now, under the current, broken law! I said that they would have the same legal outcome even in anarcho-capitalism and that’s the fact (although I think it’s a stupid decision on their part).

    =================================================

     

    DC,

    If majority authors really believed in the invalidity of IP, they would usually add the few extra words needed to GPL or “creative commons” or “public domain” the work.

    Or, they would put something like this on their work (you should have noticed this on this blog):

    This article is copyright © 2006, by George Reisman. Permission is hereby granted to reproduce and distribute it electronically and in print, other than as part of a book and provided that mention of the author’s web site www.capitalism.net is included. (Email notification is requested.) All other rights reserved.

     

    Instead, we have the usual copyright notices. Why?

    It’s all about simple economics. The unrestricted reproduction will lead to an enourmous supply and lead to a collapse in prices. If prices of final goods are approaching the zero, so will the prices of inputs approach to zero. What kind of publisher will pay a fortune for a literary masterpiece in a manuscript, if he knows that unauthorized copies will run him out of business.

    Authors cannot offer technical support and services with their books. They rely on their property rights to establish copyright (limited terms of use) in order to make money.

    ============================================

    Kevin B,

    In your example, a person C is committing an unintentional trespass (unintentionally using services that can be derived from someone else’s good, without the owner’s permission). Hence, this party cannot be responsible for trespass in itself

    — HOWEVER,

    If this person decides to profit from this unintentional trespass, then this trespass is intentionally aggravated to tort. Unauthorized copies will still create a financial injury to the author, and person C will be responsible for tort in your scenario.

    I hope this helps.

    Published: April 12, 2007 2:24 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    By the way Kevin,

    Freedom in a perfectly free market does mean that you will be allowed to freely commit tort by profiteering from a trespass (not paying for something that costs a lot of money when legally obtained — like publishing rights).

    Published: April 12, 2007 2:28 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, you are evading. Whether or not authors believe in the validity of IP is irrelevant; the fact is that the government has declared copyright universal by edict, so we cannot be seeing the free market at work. Therefore, it is fallacious to say that the free market will ‘continue to function’ the way that it is with respect to copyright, since it is clearly not free at this time.

    Also, you haven’t countered any of the arguments presented against this position (either by me or Francisco). You’re simply explaining why a copyright system would need to work they way that you think it will . . . which couldn’t be more off topic.

    Published: April 12, 2007 2:42 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Whether or not authors believe in the validity of IP is irrelevant;

    DC,

    That’s like saying that supply is irrelevant in the market outcome.

    Of course that the fact that people do not want relinquish their copyrights is relevant! It just shows you their preference, which can be perfectly excercised in anarcho-capitalism — and I explained why simple economics forces many innovators to seek this kind of arrangement (some sellers can only make a living by selling limited use of their property).

    The fact that the state now has a monopoly over law enforcement when it comes to private property rights — does no mean that in the absence of state we would just forsake our means of survival and go into communism (anarcho-communists actually believe in this). The same applies to copyrights.

    Try reading my postings with some more critical thinking, not just with a priory disagreement.

    Published: April 12, 2007 3:04 PM

  • DC

    More evasion, Sasha. Well, either that, or you aren’t aiming at creating a logically coherent argument.

    You say that defense is a good analogy. Consider another one: paper fiat currency. It doesn’t really matter, though, as these tangents are irrelevant to my original point.

    Published: April 12, 2007 3:07 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    I do not believe that freedom includes free trespass, but trespass needs to be clearly defined. The complex definition of trespass is being argued.

    I cannot agree that my observation of you, unless previously agreed otherwise, would result in unintentional trespass. If I am observing anyone, then I am bound to learn something from them. Learning will lead to improvement (profit).

    Only a fool would read a book aloud to oneself in a public place in front of others and expect not one of them to observe him. If that book were to give pleasure to the observer, would you expect payment to be made to the reader? After all, if the reader normally charges for his book, then the observer is committing a financial injury derived from his unintentional trespass.

    Telling accidental observers to forget what they’ve learned is insane. To tell them that they cannot use what they’ve learned, since they would be profiting from someone else’s hypothetical profit loss seems extreme.

    Published: April 12, 2007 3:29 PM

  • averros

    Sasha –

    O TEMOPORA, O MORES! If you’re indeed a mathematician, you are only showing how deep we have sunk.

    No, dear. I only provoked you to declare loud and clear that you are nothing more than a clueless demagogue who resorts to ad hominem attacks when shown weakness of your argumentation.

    Thank you for your willingness to display your true colors.

    Kevin B. adequately dismantled your objections, and I see no need to repeat what he wrote. (Actually, there were cases of people with eidetic memory repoducing protected works of art verbatim – the most famous case being that of 14 years old Mozart writing down the score of Allergri’s Miserere after hearing it once. The Church protected the original score for a century threatening excommunication to anyone who would dare to copy it).

    Published: April 12, 2007 6:58 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    Read Rothbard! Under contractual copyright and common law tort, Epson could still protect itself against unauthorized replications of its cartridges.

    Did they replicate Epson’s cartridges? Epson is suing under the understandig that they patented the differences, not the cartridges.

    And what contractual agreement would apply here? That Epson owns the differentiations? Because they certainly do not own the concept of Ink Cartridge. I can imagine owning all hammers just because I changed the head on one – that would be rich.

    Published: April 12, 2007 7:47 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    DC,

    There is no evasion and no false analogies on my part. Stop hallucinating, please. If people don’t want and need copyright and property rights — the state is not preventing them from not exercising those rights. Hopefully, you see know that copyright could continue to exist under anarcho-capitalism. You were not able to make a single argument on why would people go against their economic survival and stop with their rights to sell limited uses of their goods.

    Keep thinking and don’t get too frustrated.

    ===============================================

    Kevin B,

    Deriving services from some good is its use — and according to Mises, the owner has a right to control those services. What services do you derive from accidentally seeing me – I don’t care. Like I said, nobody is responsible for unintentional trespass.

    However, would you support my right to set up the equipment from across the street – and to film your every move and to sell it over the internet?

    By the way, I never mentioned any “hypothetical profit loss.” Let’s not be dishonest! I only mentioned real tort of financial injuries, which happens when you use a product in an expensive way — and than refusing to pay for that. You can’t rent a car and than refuse to pay… you can’t assume expensive publishing rights for free and without the author’s permission, either.

    ================================================

    Averros,

    I just honestly described your baseless arrogance and intentional misinterpretation of my arguments. Your unintelligent charade about the letter “A” was really worse than any ad hominem. You should be ashamed if you truly are a mathematician.

    By the way, Kevin B. did not “dismantle” anything. He just needed some clarification.

    =================================================

    Francisco,

    Are you O.K.? Seriously? How many times do I have to remind about Dr. Kinsella’s article that opened this thread.

    o what these companies do is this. They intentionally complicate the design of the cartridge and file patents on it. They make their base printer such that it will only work with a cartridge that has the patented devices in it.

    Epson made a conscious effort to differentiate its cartridges, so nobody else’s cartridges can fit into their printers. However, some a-holes decided that they want to replicate Epson’s unique product, in spite of their implied contract which would prevent them from doing that (they knew that by paying $30 for Epson cartridges they did not buy a permission to reproduce it).

    Don’t be silly in trying to imitate Averros. Epson does not own differentiations, just like you’re not owning “all hammers.” Epson owns unique physical goods (cartridges) and they can prove that copycats used/replicated their goods, without ther permission — and that constitutes trespass. That’s all.

    Published: April 12, 2007 9:05 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, you write:

    Hopefully, you see know that copyright could continue to exist under anarcho-capitalism.

    It is clear that you never comprehended my posts, from my first contribution to this thread onward, if you really think this is what our debate was about. Then again, given your tendency to evade or shift the topic of debate, this makes sense.

    You were not able to make a single argument on why would people go against their economic survival and stop with their rights to sell limited uses of their goods.

     

    Again, what people could do on a free market is irrelevant to my claims.

    My only claim is that your logic has been fallacious. Don’t take it personally and assume that I’m attacking your whole system (once your premises are granted). I’m more interested in the validity and soundness of your presuppositions.

    Since my contribution to this debate had to do with your argumentation, let’s get back to that: I claim that what you have argued is both invalid and unsound.

    Here’s what I mean: you presuppose the linchpin of your claims — that on a free market copyrighted goods would be “rented” — in order to say that this is what is currently happening. A better way to make your case would be to start from principles that are generally accepted and then argue for what follows from them.

    (In other words: You are claiming “copyright would have to function this way on a free market” and concluding “therefore copyright does function this way currently.” Don’t you see the problem?

    Or, possibly, you are assuming or asserting the latter claim without feeling the need to back it up with evidence. And I have several arguments above, still unaddressed, that go against this strange conclusion.)

    Published: April 13, 2007 7:37 AM

  • DC

    It’s also interesting to note that Sasha’s responses to my post are becoming shorter, more dismissive, continue to talk about his system in a free market (something I’ve not been interested in here), and contain more and more personal-attacks.

    Published: April 13, 2007 7:41 AM

  • greg

    SR> …and according to Mises [and Rothbard, for the zillionth time]…

    I think everyone gets your point by now. Rothbard and Mises were Gods, and everyone must look to you to tell them what the Gods said.

    SR> …in spite of their implied contract which would prevent them from doing that…

    With all these implied contracts littered across space and time, I nominate you to clean the mess up.

    Published: April 13, 2007 12:06 PM

  • greg

    DR> It’s also interesting to note that Sasha’s responses to my post[s] are becoming shorter,…

    Dude, don’t let the flux fool you. You’re staring into a black hole.

    Published: April 13, 2007 12:11 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Greg,

    Would you prefer Marx’s definition? If you have any objections to Mises’s definition of ownership, can you offer an alternative one? I just tried to remind you guys what ownership means (yes, using Mises and Rothbard as a reference, just in case you object to my own definition) — and showed you that copyright stems directly from ownership (negative) rights — right to exclude unwanted uses of your good, either through tort or contract.

    =======

    DC,

    As your responses become more and more absurd, my responses are getting shorter and dismissive.

    Why do I keep talking about free market? It’s simple: libertarians would never object to anything that would perfectly legally exist even in anarcho-capitalism. Major objections to copyright are based on anarcho-communism, and they relate to their opposition to ownership rights.

    I also focused on our current (broken) system, which still shows that people demonstrate their preference for copyright and property rights — and that there is no reason for them to change that even if we abolished the state.

    However, it seems to me that some people don’t even try to argue that copyright is not a product of property rights — they would just prefer if the state prevented people from protecting it.

    Published: April 13, 2007 12:22 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    Epson made a conscious effort to differentiate its cartridges, so nobody else’s cartridges can fit into their printers. However, some a-holes decided that they want to replicate Epson’s unique product, in spite of their implied contract which would prevent them from doing that (they knew that by paying $30 for Epson cartridges they did not buy a permission to reproduce it).

    Since *when* placing a few changes in an INK CARTRIDGE converts it into something entirely different? Again, you are grasping at straws, Sasha. Do you intend to argue that differences made on a product that already is an established concept become “property”?

    Epson owns unique physical goods (cartridges) and they can prove that copycats used/replicated their goods, without ther permission — and that constitutes trespass. That’s all.

    “Unique” physical cartridges… now you are indulging in intellectual dishonesty. What would be “unique” about an ink catridge, Sasha? And how woult that be trespass? The competitors are using THEIR materials, THEIR machines, THEIR factories, THEIR engineers. The only thing that is *similar* between each product would be the shape, but the concept, the *idea*, is definitely NOT unique.

    Your dishonesty stems from your argument that just because Epson owns *unique* cartridges (same stuff but with some differences) they would also own SOMEBODY ELSE’s cartridges if they contain the same differentiations because they would be the same, and thus the other cartridge holders would be stealing from Epson (!!!). THAT is a fallacy of composition.

    Epson does not own differentiations, just like you’re not owning “all hammers.”

    They are suing based on the differentiations, so at least they believe they own them. It is the differentiations that make the cartridges *unique*, in their mind, so why do you deny they do not own them?

    Published: April 13, 2007 12:58 PM

  • Francisco Torres

    Sorry, that’s “deny they own them”

    Published: April 13, 2007 1:09 PM

  • DC

    Well, Sasha, I suppose my arguments left unchallenged will stay that way,. Copyright does not currently function as renting services derivable from a good; instead, copyright is regulation on how people use their property. At least we both agree that this is egregious.

    Your argument that copyrights will “continue” to function in a free market is invalid, since the copyright you argue is only homonymous to today’s practice. Apparently this doesn’t matter to you, so long as you get to keep arguing for how your system will work — and, by all means, keep doing so.

    95% of your last 2 replies to me did not engage my actual arguments against your position. But it did confirm that you are only interested in talking about X, and not about the logic that gets you to X. Regards.

    Published: April 13, 2007 1:12 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    DC,

    You’re missing the point. Copyright currently DO serve as a mean of not selling all possible uses of some goods — and it’s the only mean of economic survival for many sellers. There is no reason why would all these sellers start giving-up their full ownership over these expensive innovations, even if we remove the government from the picture.

    I’m sorry if you don’t understand this simple logic. There’s nothing more I can do about it.

    ==============================

    Francisco,

    I don’t need to argue that changing cartridges “makes them entirely different.” In order to prove that someone committed a trespass (unauthorized use in replication) it is enough to see copycat’s products and determine that replication took place.

    As Dr. Kinsella brilliantly pointed out, Epson intentionally differentiated its printers’ ink injecting — so it is clear that the copycat’s compatible cartridges from came from intentional acts of replication (without owner’s permission and against their implicit contract). We don’t care about the ownership of materials used in trespass — we care about the ownership over the cartridge used as a template in replication. Copycats did not buy full ownership rights with $30 or so…

    Published: April 13, 2007 1:47 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha, you wrote:

    By the way, I never mentioned any “hypothetical profit loss.” Let’s not be dishonest! I only mentioned real tort of financial injuries…

    Dishonesty wasn’t my intention. I have interpreted your definition of financial injury to be based on a hypothetical profit loss. You specifically said that unauthorized copies will still create a financial injury to the author. But you are basing that on the assumption that the copies would have been purchased otherwise. That isn’t necessarily true. It is hypothetical. Profits aren’t real until they’ve been realized.

    However, would you support my right to set up the equipment from across the street – and to film your every move and to sell it over the internet?

    That is a question I would love to answer.

    For the first part: Do you have the right to watch me from across the street? Alternatively, do you have the right to receive the photons shooting from my property into yours? Whether reception is by natural or artificial means, it seems logical that the photons are discarded by me; I am dumping them onto your property. If I didn’t want you to have them, then I shouldn’t be throwing them at you.

    Second: If I dump any objects onto your property that is not considered pollution of some sort, then do you come into ownership of the abandoned objects? In this case, the objects are photons. You are not stealing them. They are being thrown onto your property. If they do transfer to your ownership, then you must be free to use them as you wish.

    If these things are true, then it is my responsibility to keep my curtains shut if I do not want you watching me from across the street, whether you are doing it for personal pleasure or for some other profit. Agreed?

    Published: April 13, 2007 2:02 PM

  • DC

    Sasha: Okay, good — I think your last post addresses some of my counter arguments, which is a good start. You write:

    You’re missing the point. Copyright currently DO serve as a mean of not selling all possible uses of some goods — and it’s the only mean of economic survival for many sellers. There is no reason why would all these sellers start giving-up their full ownership over these expensive innovations, even if we remove the government from the picture.

    On the first point, I have to point you once again to common sense and experience, which tells us that currently people believe that they buy property (not services) when they buy a book. Indeed, book stores and publishers will also say that they sell books, not services derivable from their property. Further, there are no contracts that state that only services were sold — in fact, copyrights written in books make it apparent that they are a regulation on the property, and they never state that the book is the property of the producer.

    Copyright assumes that the owner of the book is its owner, but proclaims a government mandate that no content be used in ways deemed unacceptable by law.

    The only counter argument that I’ve seen to this from you are assertions. Maybe you have some other ammo, but I don’t see substance in your claims.

    This is sufficient to answer your objection, since producers don’t rely on renting their goods but rather on the government edict that allows them to regulate the behavior of others. It may be true that copyright would exist in the free market (I don’t think it would work quite the way that you imagine, although that’s beside the point), but it is clear that it would have to be different than the way current copyright practice functions.

    Published: April 13, 2007 2:18 PM

  • Kevin B.

    DC said:

    It may be true that copyright would exist in the free market (I don’t think it would work quite the way that you imagine, although that’s beside the point), but it is clear that it would have to be different than the way current copyright practice functions.

    The entertainment industry would have evolved to look like a completely different species. It is impossible to imagine what it would look like today absent previous government copyright law manipulation.

    Published: April 13, 2007 2:28 PM

  • DC

    Maybe this will help my case as well, maybe it will backfire, maybe it will only muddy the waters:

    From the federal government’s website on copyright:

    “Mere ownership of a book, manuscript, painting, or any other copy or phonorecord does not give the possessor the copyright. The law provides that transfer of ownership of any material object that embodies a protected work does not of itself convey any rights in the copyright.”

    In other words: You can own the book, but we’re regulating your behavior and artificially giving “rights” to the producer.

    In fact, this is made more explicit in the actual law:

    “Ownership of a copyright, or of any of the exclusive rights under a copyright, is distinct from ownership of any material object in which the work is embodied. Transfer of ownership of any material object, including the copy or phonorecord in which the work is first fixed, does not of itself convey any rights in the copyrighted work embodied in the object; nor, in the absence of an agreement, does transfer of ownership of a copyright or of any exclusive rights under a copyright convey property rights in any material object.”

    So, someone can sell a book — the physical property to me — but certain laws keep the ‘rights’ to use its ideas for someone else. This is not the free market system of contracts at work. If I buy a book and own it — that is, own the physical property — I can do with it whatever I want. It is only coercion that is keeping me from exercising my rights.

    Notice also that copyright only lasts until 70 years after the author’s death. If it was contractual, as you have been claiming, Sasha, then it could go on forever — if the author sold reproduction rights to someone else, and so on.

    But current practice shows that it is by government edict only: all works are copyrighted (whether or not someone seeks the enforcement of it), and all works cease being copyrighted at an arbitrary date selected by the government. Doesn’t sound like contracts (or implied contracts) to me. . .

    **

    This was listed under items not eligible for copyright:

    “Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration”

    Which seems to lend credence to what Francisco is arguing. So, unless Epson sues an ink cartridge company for writing a similar narrative about particular ink cartridge design, they cannot sue over a copied ink cartridge. I’m guessing that’s why these things (ideas) fall under patents, and not copyright.

    At any rate, I think these cases show that copyright is not practiced as Sasha argues it must be practiced in a free market. The law makes it clear that even if I receive the property title to material (say, a book), that I am subject to regulation on how I may use it.

    Published: April 13, 2007 2:35 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    I should have said “hypothetical revenues” and not “hypothetical profit.”

    Published: April 13, 2007 2:45 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    “Hypothetical revenues”… “hypothetical profits”…

    Really, there is no need for so many postings about nothing. If I go to Hertz and decide to “borrow” one of their cars, I will owe some real damages to them, based on tort of financial injury (I didn’t pay for a rental, plus I’ll owe punitive damages)…

    The same goes for the copyright. If you assume expensive commercial rights without the owner’s permission– you will have to pay for them. There is nothing hypothetical about that.

    ===================================================

    DC,

    Once again you are misinterpreting my statements.

    The government does not believe in private property rights and I never said that it is basing its copyright laws on contracts.

    What I’m telling you is the copyright exists as a de facto contract — which would continue to exist even if government is abolished.

    Once again for our slower readers: innovators are not currently selling the full ownership rights of their works, because that’s the only way many of them can survive… And there is no reason why the would not continue to do the same — and libertarians don’t care about government’s definitions of contractual (market exchange) situations.

    By the way, if you bothered to read Rothbard, you would know that he criticized the state for not allowing the perpetual copyright. HOWEVER, I disagree with that! If you hold and use an item for 70 years, you definitely established an “adverse possession”, which is one of the basic ways of property acquisition. The fact that you brought that up, only shows that you need more background in this topic. I wish you luck in your further research!

    Published: April 13, 2007 8:22 PM

  • Vietnam tour operator

    Exotic Ho Chi Minh City, still referred to as ‘Saigon’ by many, has preserved its distinctly Asian feel and ancient culture, where monks pray in the numerous pagodas, temples and mosques. The capital Hanoi, is a pleasant and charming city of lakes, shaded boulevards and public parks. The old quarter, built around the Hoan Kiem Lake, is an architectural museum-piece characterised by its narrow streets. Halong Bay, with its 3000-plus islands rising from the clear, emerald waters, dotted with beaches and grottoes created by waves, is one of Vietnam’s natural marvels.

    Published: April 14, 2007 9:24 AM

  • DC

    Sasha, once again I must remind you that my point has to do with the logical validity of your claims. Therefore, this:

    By the way, if you bothered to read Rothbard, you would know that he criticized the state for not allowing the perpetual copyright. HOWEVER, I disagree with that! If you hold and use an item for 70 years, you definitely established an “adverse possession”, which is one of the basic ways of property acquisition.

    Is completely irrelevant.

    This:

    The government does not believe in private property rights and I never said that it is basing its copyright laws on contracts.

    Supports my argument against your claims, insofar as you have been arguing that copyright currently functions on contract while I’ve been pointing out that government currently administers contract law. (Therefore, to assume that we have a free market at work is faulty).

    What I’m telling you is the copyright exists as a de facto contract — which would continue to exist even if government is abolished.

    This may be so, but you are implicitly acknowledging my claim that your logic is invalid.

    ( http://mail.rochester.edu/~nobs/teaching/logic&arguments/arguments&logic.html )

    Once again for our slower readers: innovators are not currently selling the full ownership rights of their works, because that’s the only way many of them can survive…

     

    Your counter argument to the points that I have laid out is a simple assertion. Perhaps you believe yourself to have that kind of authority on the issue; I would rather see some evidence or set of premises and a conclusion.

    And there is no reason why the would not continue to do the same — and libertarians don’t care about government’s definitions of contractual (market exchange) situations.

     

    Once again, irrelevant with respect to validity and soundness. You’re on a roll . . .

    Finally, this:

    The fact that you brought that up, only shows that you need more background in this topic. I wish you luck in your further research!

    Is only an attempt to evade, dismiss, and end things. I apologize that I’m not satisfied when you don’t engage in debate and that, when I spot a bad argument, and challenge it. Regards.

    Published: April 15, 2007 6:32 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    If I go to Hertz and decide to “borrow” one of their cars, I will owe some real damages to them, based on tort of financial injury (I didn’t pay for a rental, plus I’ll owe punitive damages)…The same goes for the copyright. If you assume expensive commercial rights without the owner’s permission– you will have to pay for them. There is nothing hypothetical about that.

    You are assuming that the third party is trespassing when he obtains the information, but my argument is that the information may be dumped/trashed onto the third party. If Hertz started throwing their cars onto my property, would they have a valid objection to me driving them around?

    However, would you support my right to set up the equipment from across the street – and to film your every move and to sell it over the internet?

    I don’t think you read my reply.

    Published: April 16, 2007 6:40 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    DC,

    Like said before, people currently don’t sell the full ownership of their original works of authorship (regardless of how government views these market contracts). There is no reason in the world why they would all go crazy and start doing that in a perfectly free market (I explained why would that be an entrepreneurial suicide).

    I’m not interested in your absurd philosophizing. When I said that you need further background in this topic, I simply referred to your ignorance of basic contract law and property theory — I did not mean to offend you by that. You just need to find a different way of proving that people will go crazy in a perfectly free market, and start giving-up their book manuscripts for free (the prices of final goods reflect the prices of inputs).

    =============================================

    Kevin B,

    Don’t be silly. I read your reply.

    When someone dumps someone else’s property on you, you will not be responsible for unintentional trespass. However, if you intentionally use that trespass for the financial gain (without compensating the owner who legally controls all services that can be derived from that good) — then you are committing a tort of financial injury. If someone dumps a stolen Ferrari in my backyard, that doesn’t mean that I can legally start making money by renting this car.

    You did not disapprove that in any way, so I don’t see what’s the point of your reply.

    Published: April 16, 2007 7:12 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Let me clarify:
    If you unintentionally trespass (use a good without its owner’s authorization) – you will not owe any damages, but that doesn’t mean that trespass (unauthorized use) did not occur, and that you can turn such trespass into your profit, without paying anything to the owner.

    And yes, I am assuming that unintentional trespass occurs when you unintentionally derive services from a good, without its owner’s permission. It can apply to any kind of use (trespass is any kind of unauthorized use).

    Published: April 16, 2007 7:31 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Silly? I doubted you read my reply because you did not answer my question. The basic question is still unanswered. In the last case, it was Hertz, the owner, who dumped the property on me. What then? Will you still define my use as trespass?

    Published: April 16, 2007 9:13 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    I answered your question quite clearly.

    In case that the owner himself mislaid his property on your land — you can ask the compensation for storage costs — but you cannot lawfully start renting that car, incorrectly assuming your full ownership over it.

    However, in your book example, there are no storage costs. You can unintentionally use someone’s book without the owner’s permission (unintentional trespass by definition), however, you cannot legally transform that trespass into your financial gain without compensating the owner firs (otherwise, you’re aggravating your accidental trespass into the tort of financial injury).

    I hope this helps.

    Published: April 16, 2007 11:35 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, you write:

    Like said before, people currently don’t sell the full ownership of their original works of authorship (regardless of how government views these market contracts).

    Here again is your assumption, which I have argued against with reasoning and evidence. Your response is always another bald assertion, and I don’t see why I’m compelled to think that this is true.

    There is no reason in the world why they would all go crazy and start doing that in a perfectly free market (I explained why would that be an entrepreneurial suicide).

     

    In order to get to this logical step, it’s necessary to agree with the statement you made before it. Since that original statement is the one that I’m questioning, this quoted section doesn’t help. You are presupposing your conclusion.

    I’m not interested in your absurd philosophizing.

     

    If by “absurd philosophizing” you mean making a valid, sound, and coherent argument: I can tell.

    It would be nice to see you provide the groundwork necessary to persuade others of your assertions, though. What good is a claim if there is no reason to believe it? (Further, in your case, there are also several unaddressed counter arguments that need attention).

    You just need to find a different way of proving that people will go crazy in a perfectly free market, and start giving-up their book manuscripts for free (the prices of final goods reflect the prices of inputs).

    In order for this criticism to make sense, we have to assume that copyright currently functions through voluntary contract. See the problem?

    When I said that you need further background in this topic, I simply referred to your ignorance of basic contract law and property theory — I did not mean to offend you by that.

     

    Don’t worry about offending me, Sasha; personal attacks are only as effective as their agent, and I really don’t care about your opinions of my knowledge or intellect. I was merely pointing out that you didn’t seem interested in making a coherent argument. You are continuing to prove me right.

    Published: April 17, 2007 7:46 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    DC,

    then start practicing what you preach and stop wasting space commenting on some “personal attack”. I did not attack you…. I simply pointed out deficits in your theoretical background, which caused some absurd statements on your part. I hope you now understand why your perpetual contract theory does not deny anything I said.

    When I said that sellers today demonstrate their willingness to sell only partial use of their original works of authorship — it’s a matter of simple tautology. People DO sell only restricted use of copyrighted goods. Nobody is forcing these sellers to accept the government’s copyright protection (they can simply decline it and make their works a “public domain”). At the same time, nobody is forcing people to buy these goods.

    I also explained why these choices are based on simple economics (prices of inputs are determined by final prices)– and copyright is the only way many authors can make money. As long as there is any authorship, there will be a copyright, even in anarcho-capitalism. You simply could not offer any reasonable alternative (should the book authors start selling the tech support, instead of making money on book-sales?).

    Regards.

    Published: April 17, 2007 2:13 PM

  • DC

    Sasha, book sellers sell books. The government, who administers copyright, recognizes that people receive the property title in purchasing books, and slaps on copyright restrictions as a special privilege to booksellers. Publishers can’t produce a contract that has my signature on it. Nor is it universally recognized that I’ve implicitly signed such a contract — ask any person if they own their books.

    You have a lot of work to do beyond claiming that it’s simple tautology (as if the definition of book seller is one who rents services!)

    (Also, keep in mind that copyright is a recent invention in human history. It is ludicrous to think that it must exist or else we would have no authors.)

    Published: April 17, 2007 6:20 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    DC,

    You’re denying reality again. Book sellers sell limited uses of books. I they wanted to sell full ownership rights, they would allow you to reproduce their work at will (they can do that today — but they choose not to). I explained the economic reasons behind it all and anarcho-capitalism would not change a thing in that respect.

    Published: April 17, 2007 7:18 PM

  • DC

    Well, then. Sounds like we’re at an impasse. Regads.

    Published: April 17, 2007 8:07 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Do you honestly believe that once you have created an item, that without the owner’s permission, nobody else can create another one like it under any circumstances?

    For instance, Toyota is designing new cars and shoving them in my face. That is what is happening. I am bombarded with their images all the time, on TV, on the road, hell…I see them from my house window. There they are – shoving themselves into my eyes. So I don’t have the owner’s permission? Well, Toyota should have thought of that before he threw them at me. He should have had me sign an agreement preventing my action before he shoved them in my face.

    So the partial owners don’t have permission to replicate. They agreed not to take that action. Well, that means that those cars being driven around are owned by two parties, people with rights to drive them, and people with the rights to replicate them. That doesn’t stop them by being shoved in my face. It just means that, unless the purchaser agreed not to drive them in front of me, that the images are being forced onto me by whoever the owner of replication rights there is.

    Now, if I pick up some of my clay, fashion it into a bowl, and then say, “Look Sasha! (shoving the bowl into your face) Look what I’ve made. But you can’t make anything like it now that you’ve seen it, until you have my permission.

    So I pick up my clay and fashion it into a bowl…just…like…yours. You’re really pissed, so we go to a judge in our contract-based ancap society. He learns the details, that I did not take your bowl and that you showed it to me voluntarily. What is his decision?

    Here’s my guess: He would rule that you are a victim…of being a dumbass. He would tell you that my replication does not deny you any rights to your property. You continue to possess it, and you may still replicate it. I may now use what is my property, my bowl, and do with it as I please, including trade.

    Obviously our society could have some prior agreements, in which case I could be punished, had I agreed to the rules. Otherwise the most you could do is to refuse trade with me and to give me an angry look when you see me.

    I know you aren’t a dumbass. I don’t think you want to be wrong in this case. It sounds scary, people having the ability to copy everything they see, but I think that in the far future there will be technology to do just that. At the push of a button – replicate. If so, then I would wager that that scary world is indeed inevitable.

    Your thoughts?

    Published: April 17, 2007 11:10 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sorry, I meant to say that you had fashioned the bowl and shoved it into my face.

    Or it could read that I was trying to stop you from replicating the item and the judge calls me a dumbass.

    I’ll be the dumbass if it helps.

    Published: April 17, 2007 11:14 PM

  • Kevin B.

    My kingdom for an edit feature.

    Published: April 17, 2007 11:15 PM

  • Scott D

    My edit feature for a kingdom.

    (sorry, couldn’t resist)

    Published: April 17, 2007 11:52 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin,

    your premise is completely wrong. I never said that “once you have created an item, that without the owner’s permission, nobody else can create another one like it under any circumstances.”

    Read Rothbard’s defense of anarcho-capitalist copyright. A free market advocate would never sanction independent discoveries. It is impossible to prove whether someone replicated (without owner’s permission) something that is not distinctive and original. Otherwise, you can’t prove that your particular object was replicated and not someone else’s.

    When it comes to repeated questions about services that are “shoved in your face,” I will repeat this one more time (and more times if it’s necessary): You have a right to try to seek compensation if someone mislays his property on your land — or you can try to avoid unwanted services… HOWEVER, you simply cannot lawfully make money by using your unintentional unauthorized use (trespass). The very definition of ownership states that the owner controls all services that can be derived from his good. He can decide to give you some of these services for free — but that doesn’t give you the right to take some other service for free, without owner’s permission.

    I don’t care about someone’s “anger” and I don’t find replication “scary” at all. I am simply defending the very meaning of ownership.

    Published: April 18, 2007 1:10 AM

  • rtr

    Poor Sasha still evading everyone’s proof and arguments.

    Sasha Radeta: “The very definition of ownership states that the owner controls all services that can be derived from his good.”

    This is clearly false. If someone can see Wrigley Field from their property they can derive service of seeing baseball games with no violation of property or ownership.

    But that example goes to the heart of the tyranical violence Sasha Radeta advocates for copyright protectionism. You cannot use force to prevent people from looking, hearing, or thinking, or copying. You can only uniquely own physical maerial property. You can’t own other people seeing and copying your physical property.

    Go ahead, ignore some more proof Sasha Radeta. Perhaps someone should go back and coppy and tally for him. There’s about 20-30 examples of counter argument just like this which Sash Radeta has completely ignored and pretended to evade by just repeating what he wrote from the beginning, even though many have gone out of their way to address specific examples he gave.

    Still pretending if you close your eyes nobody can see you huh Sasha?

    Published: April 18, 2007 9:42 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Poor RTR,

    I never ignored any of your blabbing. You can even say I was too cruel for humiliating you so much, almost every time you make a silly statement.

    Even in your Wrigley Field example you were too challenged to apply my theory properly:

    According to Mises’s/Rothbard’s property theory, a person who enjoys services from Wrigley Field has not done anything wrong. It’s an unintentional trespass, without any serious financial injury. HOWEVER, if that person organizes camera crews to broadcast the games, making loads of money — he is aggravating his unintentional trespass to tort of financial injury…

    ==============================

    Notice that even Kevin B. could not disapprove my right to contractually prevent others from reproducing my own book. He also could not disapprove the fact that any third party that reproduces my book without my permission is committing a trespass (unauthorized use), which results in tort (financial injury, because I’m not compensated for that use).

    Kevin only focused on extreme cases, in which someone forces him to hear a poem, he memorizes it, and now he thinks he has republishing rights. Once again, the owner absolutely controls all services that can be derived from his good and if you want to republish something from his book, you will have to have his permission.

    You may ask: why such strict definition of ownership? Well, if we did not legally control all services that can be derived from our goods, how else could we have a legal case if someone does not pay us for our labor services, leasing, or rent…. Thief who uses our goods can claim that he returned those goods in perfect condition and that he doesn’t owe anything.

    But more importantly, if we don’t have exclusive control over services that can be derived from our bodies (property), we could never acquire any property (because property is acquired when we mix our labor/services with unclaimed objects). Without such definition of ownership, any property right is relativized and this leads to lawlessness.

    Published: April 18, 2007 1:15 PM

  • rtr

    Sasha Radeta: “According to Mises’s/Rothbard’s property theory, a person who enjoys services from Wrigley Field has not done anything wrong. It’s an unintentional trespass, without any serious financial injury.”

    That’s hilarious. Ain’t no tresspass neither. And an “unintentional tresspass by whom? By Wrigley Field for putting a ballgame in view from their property? Or by the Apartment Building owner who views the ballgame from their roof?

    Hollywood Tours can sell tickets to drive trolleys to tourists for observations of celebrity houses with no tresspass whatsoever. You think the owners of those celebrity mansions can own and control who looks at their mansions from property they do not own? Wrong. But it’s at least a start, that logically followed leads to the utter collapse of your patent/copyright protectionism system, which is why you are going to extreme nonsensical claims in desperate defense.

    But at the least you agree your statement is *false*. Sasha Redata: “The very definition of ownership states that the owner controls all services that can be derived from his good.”

    This statement is proved false, is it not? The owner of Wrigley field does not control what people who view a baseball game occuring there observe from their own property rooftop. The aparrtment building owner can even sell tickets to the bleachers on his rooftop.

    So be intellectually honest for a change and admit that your statement is false. Ownership does *not* give the owner control over all services which can be derived from his good. It’s quite clear everyone is free to look at whatever they can look at from their own property, and that is deriving a service from another’s property, with no tresspass, with no material physical violation of another’s property. And we’ve just seen a concrete clear example of that. Viewing a baseball game at Wrigley Field from an aprtment rooftop. And there are an infinite number of similar examples which can show exactly the same thing.

    Sasha Radeta: “It’s an unintentional trespass, without any serious financial injury.”

    You’re a fool. There’s no tresspass whatsoever. You think you are some gangsta’ hood who has the “right” to roll down a car window, flash a gun, and demand that nobody “look at you”?

    No physical material property crossing occurs or is in any way mixed from one owner to another owner of physical material property. You cannot force someone to close their eyes. You cannot forcibly cut off someone’s ears. That’s agressive violence. What one can naturally see with one’s own eyes one can replicate in any manner they please with their own physical property. One can record what one sees with ones eyes as well with no physical material tresspass on physical material property.

    But we’ve been over all of this before. You’re just too much of a dolt to realize your arguments were stripped and completely destroyed.

    Published: April 18, 2007 2:28 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Perhaps you can help me. When you state that ownership is control of all services derived from a good, it appears to me that it may conflict with the basic principle of self-ownership.

    I believe you would agree that the self-ownership principle allows unobstructed action according to our will, within the equal rights of others (rightful liberty). I propose a situation involving the interaction between our own bodies, the starting point of all other personal property. Suppose you and I see each other. You hold up your hand and begin counting using your fingers. I learn this method from watching you. I begin to count using my fingers. I guess you would say that I am deriving a service from your body. Now, if the action of my body does not limit your action, then am I violating your rights or not? If I am not violating your rights, then am I not within the right use my own body in such a manner?

    If the owner controls all services derived from his good (in this case you are the owner of your body), then you have control over my actions, my body. This seems to fly in the face of the principle of unobstructed action. So can your actions limit my actions without my consent?

    Published: April 18, 2007 3:26 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    RTR,

    As I said: if you deny that people can control services that can be derived from their property (including their bodies) — you are in fact denying legal control over sale of our labor, rents, or leasing. You also deny any property right, since all property is derived from our exclusive control over the labor/services of our body and its “mixing” with unclaimed object.

    You are just one more example of how communism, primitivism, and mental disability directly correlates.

    Also, your Hollywood tours example is equally absurd: we currently don’t have absolute private property rights and no mechanism of preventing many nuisances. If you had capability or willingness to think, I might ask you to go back to my spy-camera example… Imagine that we have new generation of spying equipment: do you argue that people should “legally” make money by recording your private life and broadcasting it publicly?

    Anyway, you also deal with fringe and extreme cases, because copyright contracts are perfectly enforceable and unauthorized replication (use) is trespass by definition.

    Regards.

    Published: April 18, 2007 3:33 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    You are forgetting that we talk about TORT and/or contract violations when it comes to copyright.

    Your immitation of my finger movements is not creating any financial injuries. Therefore, your example is not relevant.

    Also, you are incorrect when you state the following:
    “If the owner controls all services derived from his good (in this case you are the owner of your body), then you have control over my actions, my body.”

    First of all, I’m not controlling any of your actions. YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, but you must pay for tort that occurs from use (services) of my property. You forgetting that property rights are all about that.

    Published: April 18, 2007 3:39 PM

  • rtr

    Sasha Radeta: “As I said: if you deny that people can control services that can be derived from their property (including their bodies)”

    Not “deny”. *Proved*. Learn to read.

    Sasha Radeta: “it appears to me that it may conflict with the basic principle of self-ownership.”

    Wrong. Are you so stupid to deny that people own their own eyes, own their own ears, own their own minds? That means from the pearch of their own bodies and own property they can look, listen, and think about whatever they can look, listen or think about from the perch of their own property into the beyond from the perch of their own property. Looking, listening, thinking, are not actions which violate physical material property of another. Got that moron?

    Let’s just take it at a baby steps level, since you like to evade and then jump randomly back to repeating yourself.

    I’ll get back to the rest of the worthless false garbage you write after you acknowledge that people can look at, listen to, or think about anything they want to, even if they don’t own that which they look at, listen to, or think about. That is *the* basic principle of self-ownership, using your own eyes, ears, and mind, is it not dummy?

    You can pretend nobody can see you if you close your eyes. You can pretend nobody can hear you if you cover your ears and scream “la la la la la I can’t hear you!” But we can hear you screaming such. And you have no control over any service of your screaming “la la la la la I can’t hear you!” anyone derives from their *own* ears.

    Do you see how your copyright claim interferes with the basic principle of ownership of one’s eyes, ears, and mind now? Take your time. We’ll go baby steps from now on.

    Published: April 18, 2007 4:04 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    First of all, I’m not controlling any of your actions. YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, but you must pay for tort that occurs from use (services) of my property.

    Are you suggesting that, after you’ve freely displayed your finger movements to me, you may require me to work for you if I wish to use my body in the same manner?

    Financial injury is irrelevant. I am not stealing your body, nor am I preventing your use of it. The use of my body is mine or it is not. If it is mine, then I may offer it’s services to whomever I choose, for whatever gain, which is mine.

    If I freely act in a way that alters someone else’s body for their benefit (i.e. learning to count), then I cannot claim any right to their future use of their own bodies, whether a result of my service or not, otherwise I am claiming partial ownership to their bodies.

    Your method would seem to validate taxation, since the services are pushed onto the taxpayer without the taxpayer’s acceptance of the deal, but the taxpayer still benefits. The taxpayer gains financially from some of these services, so the government could technically sue the unwilling taxpayer for tort.

    Published: April 18, 2007 4:09 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    RTR,

    When mentally challenged individual (such as yourself) calls someone a “moron” it really sounds ridiculous.

    You poor handicapped soul…, “ownership” does not interfere with people’s senses. The fact that you can’t walk on someone’s property at will, does not mean that someone declared the control over your legs. You simply must pay for financial injuries (tort) if it is caused by your unauthorized use (trespass)… That’s it. Simple concepts and without them there are no property rights.

    Once again, if we don’t have exclusive control over services that can be derived from our property (including our bodies) — we don’t have a right to acquire property by mixing that labor with unclaimed objects… People agree with me (and Mises) every time they charge for their body’s labor services, rent, leasing, etc.

    ==========

    =====================

    Kevin B,
    “Financial injury is irrelevant.”

    WHAT!?!?!? Maybe it’s irrelevant to you, but not to me. If your trespass causes financial injury — only then we have a judicial controversy. Without an actual injury arising from unauthorized use (intentional or accidental) there is no copyright case.

    “I am not stealing your body, nor am I preventing your use of it.”

    When a thief hires you to do the job and refuses to pay it, he doesn’t steel your body. Do you now actually advocate the right of employers to pay their workers at will?

    The use of my body is mine or it is not.

    The use of your body is yours — even when you use it to steal someone’s car. You just have to pay for financial injuries that your trespass causes. It’s as simple as that and it applies to all sorts of trespasses (putting in service someone else’s property, without his permission).

    You guys are trying to bore me to death.

    Published: April 18, 2007 4:44 PM

  • rtr

    Classic Sasha Radeta evasion even when it comes to baby steps.

    Sasha Radeta: “You poor handicapped soul…, “ownership” does not interfere with people’s senses.”

    Try again. Walking is not:

    1.) Looking
    2.) Listening
    or
    3.) Thinking

    It’s a simple yes or no question. Can someone look at, listen to, or think about property which they don’t own from the perch of their own bodies and property?

    Take your time you intellectually dishonest moron, and answer the question.

    When your walking down the public street must you wear a blindfold so as not to derive services from the image of another person’s body also walking down the public street?

    Baby Steps, take II. You can do it Sasha!

    Published: April 18, 2007 4:58 PM

  • Kevin B.

    rtr may be lacking in tact, but he has a good point.

    While walking on your property may violate your property rights, looking, listening, and thinking do not. Just as walking on your body may violate your rights, but looking, listening, and thinking do not. Absent the use of force, of course.

    The financial injury case is irrelevant because there is no financial injury. The justification of financial injury requires that rights have been violated. They have not.

    When a thief hires you to do the job and refuses to pay it, he doesn’t steel your body. Do you now actually advocate the right of employers to pay their workers at will?

    That would be fraud. I did not commit fraud or theft when I imitated the finger action. We had no contract. No fraud. No theft. Your limit on my action is aggressive.

    The use of your body is yours — even when you use it to steal someone’s car. You just have to pay for financial injuries that your trespass causes. It’s as simple as that and it applies to all sorts of trespasses (putting in service someone else’s property, without his permission).

    That is theft. I did not steal your body. There are no financial injuries. I did not place your body into service; you did voluntarily.

    Published: April 18, 2007 6:06 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    RTR is lacking in brain and unfortunately you fail to see it.

    I mean, look at your absurd line of thinking:
    – Just because I said that reading someone’s book without the owner’s permission is a trespass (by its very definition — UNAUTHORIZED USE), that does not mean that I declare my control over someone else’s eyesight!

    By the same token, when I say that walking on my property without my permission is a trespass, that does not mean that I declare my control over someone else’s legs!

    Do you now understand the absurdity of your critique: asking someone to pay for his unauthorized use of my property DOES NOT mean that I own his eyesight or hearing — any more than I owe the trespasser’s legs when I try to get him out of my property.

    ======

    Seriously, you guys have a serious problem: a trespass is by definition unauthorized USE (of any kind). It is not just “unauthorized walking” as severely mentally challenged RTR may assume), otherwise, property rights could not possibly hold.

    Published: April 18, 2007 10:26 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    But look at this new level of absurdity:

    That is theft. I did not steal your body. There are no financial injuries. I did not place your body into service; you did voluntarily.

    In other words, Kevin B is trying to tell us that employers should not pay their workers, if they decide to do so. After all:
    – They did not steal their bodies
    – Workers voluntarily showed at work
    – Financial injuries are fundamentally the same as in my example in which you use someone’s expensive reproduction rights and then refuse to pay.

    OH, but Kevin B said: “That would be fraud.

    So it is a fraud when employer uses someone’s body’s service and refuses to pay — BUT when you use restricted services of someone’s book you can decide not to pay????? Is it not a fraud when you pay $20 for personal use of someone’s book, and then you unilaterally decide that you are now the full owner (which normally costs a lot of money)…

    If you want to make a valid comparisons, remove the fraud element: If someone delivers a good to your address by mistake (and you don’t want it), this does not entitle you to become the legal owner of that good. The same goes for labor services: if someone starts painting your fence by mistake, by allowing him to complete that service, you simply form an implied contract. The same goes for your poem example, in which you decide to derive a service from someone else’s book, without obtaining any publishing rights.

    PS
    Remember, when it comes to simple objects that could be reproduced after a brief observation, the plaintiffs would have a hard time proving that such simple invention was not the product of someone else’s independent discovery. Use common sense…

    Published: April 18, 2007 10:58 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    If someone starts paints my fence all the way to completion on accident, then he’s an idiot.

    I’m already forced to pay people not to work. I’m not going to start paying them to be stupid as well.

    Walking on your property consumes your property for a period of time. It may also damage it, but that isn’t necessary for trespass. The theft of control or posession is what matters. Your property’s action is forcefully interrupted when I walk on it without your permission.

    There is nothing hindering your use when I look at it, listen to it, or think about it. I am not obstructing your action in that case.

    By your thinking, the paparazzi would be in trouble. You have that going for you. 😉

    So it is a fraud when employer uses someone’s body’s service and refuses to pay…

    Violation of contract. However, if they burst into my factory and start cranking out widgets, then I’ll thank my new oompa loompas at the end of the day with some chocolate candy bars.

    BUT when you use restricted services of someone’s book you can decide not to pay????? Is it not a fraud when you pay $20 for personal use of someone’s book, and then you unilaterally decide that you are now the full owner (which normally costs a lot of money)…

    If I agreed to the restrictions, then that would be another example of violation of contract, otherwise I retain my right to unobstructed action within your equal rights. And just because something is cheap, doesn’t mean it isn’t what it is. Ever hear of someone getting a great deal on antiques at a garage sale?

    You moved me with the paparazzi, but the oompa loompas won me back. You can have them too. Just concede.

    Published: April 19, 2007 12:58 AM

  • rtr

    Baby Steps for Sash Radeta, Take III.

    Sasha Radeta: “Remember, when it comes to simple objects that could be reproduced after a brief observation, the plaintiffs would have a hard time proving that such simple invention was not the product of someone else’s independent discovery.”

    You’ve failed yet again. Here it is, copied and pasted for your stupid idiotic intellectually dishonest evasive moronic self:

    rtr: “Try again. Walking is not:

    1.) Looking
    2.) Listening
    or
    3.) Thinking

    It’s a simple yes or no question. Can someone look at, listen to, or think about property which they don’t own from the perch of their own bodies and property?

    Take your time you intellectually dishonest moron, and answer the question.

    When your walking down the public street must you wear a blindfold so as not to derive services from the image of another person’s body also walking down the public street?

    Baby Steps, take II. You can do it Sasha!”

    Your reputation is on the brink, if not already past ruination on this board, Sasha Radeta. Gonna answer the question or not?

    Published: April 19, 2007 8:17 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    RTR,

    If you weren’t so severely disabled, I would ask you to define trespass. I only tried to explain: people can do whatever they want with their bodies — but if they commit an unauthorized USE of someone else’s property (trespass) that results in financial injury (tort) they will have to pay for it.

    Even if you redefine trespass as: “unauthorized use of someone else’s property, which involves the trespassers peripheral nervous system” — you would still not be able to eliminate the uses from sensory-somatic nervous system (eyes, ears…). If you say that trespass occurs when the trespasser uses his skin, that’s equally absurd (if he has gloves on, that theory breaks)…

    Anyway, your stupid questions do not even deal with majority of copyright cases, which do not involve mere looking (for example, you have to handle a book before you can replicate it)…

    =====================================

    Kevin B,

    People who accidentally start painting a wrong fence are not necessarily more idiotic than their accidental customers. Anyway, you don’t seem to be familiar either the common law outcome of such scenario: you would have to pay for their services, which you could have declined.

    You seem to be missing the point again — why are labor contracts enforceable? If I promise now that I’ll give you $1 million tomorrow — I can perfectly legally change my mind, because I didn’t take any good or SERVICE from you. What’s different about labor contracts?
    The answer: the failure to fulfill labor contract implies theft — simply because people’s ownership over any good (including own bodies) is defined as the legal control over all services that can be derived from it. Without such definition, there would be no property rights, since all property is derived from our sovereign control over our body’s labor.

    “Use”/”service” stretch beyond peripheral nervous system.

    Regards

    PS
    Of course that I am against paparazzi – I said that many times before. I am also against someone’s “right” to set up the spying equipment and to sell your intimate moments online. And no — you don’t become the owner of BMWs commercial rights by renting one for a day… And you don’t get these expensive rights on the garage sale either 🙂

    Published: April 19, 2007 1:20 PM

  • rtr

    Baby Steps for Sasha Radeta, Take IV. I think it’s clear to all who may want to discuss things with you or take you seriously have all the proof they need now to see that you are completely intellectually dishonest and evasive and could care less about truth. You can’t even answer simple yes or no questions.

    You again fail with:

    Sasha Radeta: “If you weren’t so severely disabled, I would ask you to define trespass. I only tried to explain: people can do whatever they want with their bodies — but if they commit an unauthorized USE of someone else’s property (trespass) that results in financial injury (tort) they will have to pay for it.”

    Here it is reposted yet again for your mentally handicapped perusal:

    rtr: “Try again. Walking is not:

    1.) Looking
    2.) Listening
    or
    3.) Thinking

    It’s a simple yes or no question. Can someone look at, listen to, or think about property which they don’t own from the perch of their own bodies and property?

    Take your time you intellectually dishonest moron, and answer the question.

    When your walking down the public street must you wear a blindfold so as not to derive services from the image of another person’s body also walking down the public street?”

    Published: April 19, 2007 1:40 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha, you said:

    Anyway, your stupid questions do not even deal with majority of copyright cases, which do not involve mere looking (for example, you have to handle a book before you can replicate it)

    I know this was directed at rtr, but I had to note that we strayed from Epson to discuss the rights of third parties not subject to any formal agreement under an ancap (the target) system.

    People who accidentally start painting a wrong fence are not necessarily more idiotic than their accidental customers. Anyway, you don’t seem to be familiar either the common law outcome of such scenario: you would have to pay for their services, which you could have declined.

    Do I have the right to remain silent or not?

    …people’s ownership over any good (including own bodies) is defined as the legal control over all services that can be derived from it. Without such definition, there would be no property rights, since all property is derived from our sovereign control over our body’s labor.

    Your definition of ownership forces others to action. How does that reinforce self-ownership?

    On the side, the paparazzi also bother me as do intimate spies. However, I do not have the right to show them my willy without contract and then tell them it was a service that they have to pay me for. If they are using equipment that employs invasive photography, then there is possibility of tort. Passive photography, on the other hand, is just me showing off my willy. Oops!

    Published: April 19, 2007 2:15 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Poor RTR,

    Your serious handicap is preventing you from realizing that trespass is not “unauthorized walking,” “unauthorized USE” (which involves more than just motor functions of human body). Your frustration comes from the fact that you are unable to create an alternative definition of “trespass” and “use.”

    ==================================

    Kevin B,

    You fail to see that majority of “third party” issues that involve copyright do not consist of mere looking. For example, you can’t really reproduce someone’s book by just glancing over someone’s shoulder… Nevertheless, if trespass is “unauthorized use” by its definition — try to define use for me… Or you can consult the dictionary…. There is no way to make a discrimination against certain parts of human nervous system, when it comes to use (enjoying the service) of some good.

    “Do I have the right to remain silent or not?”

    Of course you have a right to remain silent… There seems to be a confusion here. No one is preventing you from doing whatever you want with your body, but you will have to pay for services that you decide to keep and enjoy, even when it comes to implied contracts. I hope you understand why ownership must be defined as “control of all services that can be derived from a good” — otherwise, labor contracts would be just unenforceable promises and we would not have any property rights.

    Also I notice some confusion here:

    “On the side, the paparazzi also bother me as do intimate spies. However, I do not have the right to show them my willy without contract and then tell them it was a service that they have to pay me for. If they are using equipment that employs invasive photography, then there is possibility of tort.

    Hold on one second! I talked about hi-tech spying equipment that someone can install outside of your property. What’s “invasive” about their use of their own eyes and equipment that never crosses your property line??? Such equipment is getting more and more sophisticated (from heat signatures and X-ray vision, we are advancing toward scary means of spying, even through closed curtains). By the way, is injuring someone with radioactivity (without physical contact) O.K. in your “book?”

    What about computer spyware — someone can establish the use of your computer, including a webcam, without ever stepping onto your property…. Computer virus and spyware are nothing but a pieces of information that never physically enter your hardware (just like some information that your brain registers), but someone else can put your property into his service… This leads me to the issue of hypnosis — what if someone find a way to control your body without touching you?

    Again, unless we accept Mises’s (common sense) definition of ownership (from which copyright directly stems), private property rights become meaningless.

    Published: April 19, 2007 10:56 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Stephan Kinsella:

    “As mentioned previously in Spyware and Trespass, spam can, in principle, properly be considered a type of trespass–since it is a means by which the spammer uninvitedly uses another’s property.”

    See also: http://blog.mises.org/archives/004201.asp

    Now, I wouldn’t go so far to characterize the unwanted information as trespass (imagine if we applied it to all kinds of offensive speech), as long as it doesn’t give a trespassing party some kind of use of someone’s property, but the fundamental principle there is correct. Trespass was never limited to walking, as some retards like RTR may think.

    Published: April 19, 2007 11:23 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Sasha, spam is arguably a form of trespass because it’s a means of using someone’s property–e.g., their (scarce, tangible) computer, hard drive, etc. I am not sure how this is supposed to buttress your (very confused) case.

    Published: April 19, 2007 11:45 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Dr. Kinsella,

    If information, which cannot physically enter someone’s property, can be declared as form of trespass — then my case is so much stronger. I also subscribe to your (correct) opinion that physical contact is not necessary to “uninvitedly use another’s property.” However, I think I have much easier task proving that someone watching a DVD content is using that (scarce, tangible) good — compared to your (very confused) case against sending information which may annoy the receiver.

    I guess when I drove RTR out of his mind with some information he did not want to see — that was the same kind of trespass. Oh, he’ll be happy when he finds out 🙂

    Regards.

    Published: April 20, 2007 12:01 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Also, imagine the spyware that comes along with RAM (memory) booster. Someone could spy on you and to use your (scarce, tangible) computer from the comfort of his home — without having to even interfere with your own use of that computer. Without Mises’s definition of ownership and my (common sense) definition of use — there would be nothing illegal with this form of spyware… The same goes for hi-tech voyeurs that could broadcast your intimate moments, without ever physically stepping onto your property. I think you guys just proved what kind of horrible place this world would be, if some authority decided to redefine ownership rights in a way that would allow copyright violations.

    Published: April 20, 2007 12:16 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha, you said:

    Hold on one second! I talked about hi-tech spying equipment that someone can install outside of your property. What’s “invasive” about their use of their own eyes and equipment that never crosses your property line??? Such equipment is getting more and more sophisticated (from heat signatures and X-ray vision, we are advancing toward scary means of spying, even through closed curtains). By the way, is injuring someone with radioactivity (without physical contact) O.K. in your “book?”

    You brought up the issue of radioactivity, but you did not notice the subtle difference between invasive and passive observation. Notice that with certain methods of observation, your property is trespassed, but with other methods it is not. The naked eye may or may not be part of an invasive observation. Consider whether I am emitting radiation onto you, or if you are emitting it onto me…

    What about computer spyware..

    Stop right there. Most spyware is free. The downloader is accepting the risk when he does not have a contract with the uploader. The spyware is not forced onto the computer most of the time. There are cases of fraud, but we both agree that fraud is trespass. If you wish to argue that hackers may force their way and use your computers resources, then you are right, but that is forced exclusionary use of your computer’s resources – trespass.

    This leads me to the issue of hypnosis — what if someone find a way to control your body without touching you?

    Have you ever met anyone that was “hypnotized?” I have. It was purely entertainment. That is usually what you see, especially since it is mostly in movies. Don’t get me wrong; Brainwashing is possible, but brainwashing is accompanied by force, whether sleep deprivation, drugs, starvation, etc.

    Again, unless we accept Mises’s (common sense) definition of ownership (from which copyright directly stems), private property rights become meaningless.

    Consider that Mises wasn’t perfect. Take time off every once in a while to doubt what you take for granted.

    Perhaps private property rights would be strengthened if third parties could not be sued for copying the cartridges sold by Epson.

    Published: April 20, 2007 12:38 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sorry about that.

    Published: April 20, 2007 12:41 AM

  • rtr

    Baby Steps for Sasha Radeta, Take V. Sasha is still evading a simple question days and numerous posts later, as he also does with everyone else’s argumentative points. It’s obvious he is petrified with fear to even look at his own argument in the mirror. It is indeed ugly. It is indeed full of holes. It is indeed moronic.

    To recap, Sash Radeta claims: “The very definition of ownership states that the owner controls all services that can be derived from his good.”

    He then repeatedly evades, and has yet to answer, my simple question:

    1.) Can someone look at, listen to, or think about property which they don’t own from the perch of their own bodies and property?

    2.) When you’re walking down the public street must you wear a blindfold so as not to derive services from the image of another person’s body also walking down the public street?

    The contradiction in Sasha’s claim is obvious to all. That he refuses to address anyone’s points only shows that he is completely full of crap. But many of us already knew that anyway.

    Well is the moron going to answer or not? It’s rather amusing how denial grips some and leads them into further and further humilation.

    It’s quite obvious an artist can paint an image of anyone else’s person or property with the artist’s own property tools without any permission and without any tresspass. Just as people walking down the street can see and hear each other without any permission nor any tresspass. Thus, it’s *proved* that the owner of property does *not* control all services that can be derived from his good. He only controls the physical material good itself.

    It would be absurd to use violence to prevent people from seeing or hearing each other without permission. It would literally lead to a world of blind, deaf, and dumb people. And frankly, one Sasha Radeta is more than enough.

    Published: April 20, 2007 8:38 AM

  • rtr

    rtr: “It would be absurd to use violence to prevent people from seeing or hearing each other without permission. It would literally lead to a world of blind, deaf, and dumb people.”

    And thus now I have the main piece of my rigorous irrefutable Nobel Prize #9 praxelogical proof that patent and copyright protectionism cause technological and material wealth stagnation.

    Who knew 2007 would be the year of the greatest advances in economic science ever so far? Just as some seemed ready to advocate hiding Austrian methodology to further academic careers.

    Published: April 20, 2007 9:22 AM

  • rtr

    Like a Statue of Liberty with its middle finger extended, I rest my case.

    Published: April 21, 2007 9:07 PM

  • rtr

    rtr: “When you’re walking down the public street must you wear a blindfold so as not to derive services from the image of another person’s body also walking down the public street”

    Assuming, [of course], that “blindfolds” haven’t been copyrighted/patented.

    One question. One annihilation. rtr > Mises.

    Published: April 21, 2007 9:13 PM

  • rtr

    rtr: “Assuming, [of course],”

    Ceteris Paribus.

    Published: April 21, 2007 9:16 PM

  • rtr

    Well “I’m” in *awe*! I guess it takes time for others to realize. But not “that” long, *this* time. Nobody even wants to be first with the “Rothbardian” acknowledgement?

    Stunned by recognition of the praxelogical professor. Time to appreciate automatic note taking function.

    Published: April 21, 2007 9:39 PM

  • rtr

    But even this subjective value is fleeting. That’s the middle finger “flux” for ya. Lately, Mises et al have been “dead”. Undercut on terms, with my very own ideas. C’est la vie.

    Now that’s what I call a “donation”. You can almost hear the upward movement of my zipper.

    Published: April 21, 2007 9:53 PM

  • rtr

    And that’s how you get motivated upbraiding energy to keep one on one’s “metaphorical” toes. Give me some “smearing” tactics of early 19th century presidential elections. Got skewled by with a but of a glance of the praxelogical prof? But that’s the likes of the articles about the vulgarity of subjective value, the subjective value of vulgarity.

    Published: April 21, 2007 10:15 PM

  • rtr

    Eh, more “effort” than I thought it would be to bump off all other replies than those by “rtr” on the front page *new* replies section. But don’t let lack of praise outbid your gratitude.

    Or is it beneath the “scientific” consideration of those “qualified”? Or do they need another month to “/ponder”?

    Published: April 21, 2007 10:21 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Since this RTR dude is clearly out of his mind, screaming and arguing with himself (this poor idiot does not differentiate between perfectly harmless unintentional trespass when you look at someone — and the tort of financial injury that can be caused by the voyeur’s broadcast of someone’s private life), I will just briefly comment Kevin B’s statements:

    KEVIN: “You brought up the issue of radioactivity, but you did not notice the subtle difference between invasive and passive observation.”

    “Invasive observation”???? You mean like an observation in which observer standing on his own property “invades you” with his own eyesight and the use of his own brain?!?!?!?! Well, you just proved my point – the trespass goes beyond physical contact and it can be applied to copyright violations. It is possible to cause the tort financial injury, without ever stepping on someone’s property. There is no such thing as invasive eyesight, but there is such thing as unauthorized use of someone else’s private property (all trespasses are done through peripheral nervous system, anyway… discriminating against one sense would be nonsensical).

    KEVIN: “There are cases of fraud, but we both agree that fraud is trespass. If you wish to argue that hackers may force their way and use your computers resources, then you are right, but that is forced exclusionary use of your computer’s resources – trespass.”

    First of all, hackers don’t ever leave their property and they never physically inject anything to your computer. It’s nothing but information they send to people, and information does not amount to the invasion of someone’s property. Even in cases of spyware, there would be no fraud case if it wasn’t for the resulting unauthorized use (trespass). In other words, unauthorized use is perfectly possible without ever physically touching someone else’s property. Even the spyware with RAM booster (that compensates for the use of HDD’s resources) would still be a trespass — although it never interferes with someone else’s use of the computer.

    KEVIN: Consider that Mises wasn’t perfect.

    Of course he wasn’t perfect. But you still haven’t denied one single iota of what Mises said. You only confirmed that without his definition of ownership, we would never have a case against someone who injures you with voyeurism, computer hacking, spyware, gamma radiation, the next generation brainwashing, etc. This same definition applies to copyright violations. You may not have the courage and honesty to admit it, but you confirmed everything Mises said about ownership rights — and Rothbard’s copyright theory stems directly from it.

    Published: April 22, 2007 3:05 PM

  • rtr

    Sasha Radeta: “perfectly harmless unintentional trespass when you look at someone”

    Lol, that says it all. Sasha Radeta believes trespass occurs from looking at someone. He calls it “harmless”. He calls it “unintentional”. But clearly looking at someone is a priori defined *intentional* purposeful action. Yet another false contradiction. Sometimes one may liked being looked at while other times one may not like being looked at. But indeed looking at someone is “harmless” because there is no trespass. It would also be absurd to maintain on the one hand that looking is “harmless” trespass while simultaneously maintaining “copying” someone’s actions or ideas is “harmful” trespass.

    Published: April 23, 2007 7:49 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Yes RTR,

    When someone sick and disturbed only stares at person against his will, I would argue (based on the only possible definition of ownership) that he is committing a harmless trespass, without any injury (tort). You see, even Kevin B had concede that there can be some observing actions that are “invasive.” However, no observation can be “invasive” in a physical sense. We can only conclude that all unwanted use of our bodies is a form of trespass — and that only those unwanted uses that result in an injury (financial or other) can be considered as tort.

    You still did not provide any alternative definition of “ownership” and “use.” Mises’s definitions absolutely satisfy the criteria that Kevin B and Dr. Kinsella laid out: they justify the protection against unwanted hackers, spyware, voyeurism — who are “simultaneously” using our own property, without our permission. Unfortunately for you, the same fundamental principles justify the protection against copyright violations. As you could see from Dr. Kinsella and Kevin B., unauthorized use (trespass) is quite possible without the physical contact — and trespass that results in an injury is a tort.

    Anyway, your replies do not even deal with majority of copyright cases, which involve much more than mere looking (for example, you have to handle a book before you can replicate it)… You simply cannot justify those normal kinds of trespasses, so you shifted your focus toward the extreme cases — absurdly trying to defend voyeurs and hackers.

    Published: April 23, 2007 10:01 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha, you said:

    …unauthorized use (trespass) is quite possible without the physical contact

    I must disagree. The influence of whatever sort must be measurable to say that property has been trespassed. Without physical contact, measurement is impossible. Therefore, physical contact between the owner and the trespasser is required for the interaction to be properly deemed trespass. That statement, of course, attaches all property to its proper owner, since self-ownership is the root of all property.

    All of your trespass examples may be proved or disproved using this method, including all possible voyeurism, hacking, radiation, brainwashing, etc.

    Furthermore, since, absent prior contract, the copying of a book or printer cartridge does not violate property rights, then copying is a valid action. It may not be assumed someone must seek permission to use what has been passively observed, since that would be a violation of the observer’s property right of self-ownership.

    This is not to say that an ancap society cannot agree not to copy other’s works, but that it must be agreed to formerly if the foreceful precention of such action is to be justified.

    I would caution against interpreting government edicts as implied contracts, since such edicts nearly always (if not always) violate the rights of the individual.

    Published: April 23, 2007 3:05 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    How can you now possibly disagree with my statement, when you just stated that someone sending radioactive rays, hackers, and voyeurs broadcasting someone’s private life — are all indeed trespassing?!? These forms of trespasses can be done WITHOUT any contact with trespasser’s touching sense, and there is nothing you can say to change that fact.

    You are now in a complete disarray. You feel like you have to disagree with me, although you conceded to all my key points. Obviously, it is quite possible to trespass without physical contact, and even Dr. Kinsella supported this fact.

    However, most of the copyright violations are done through unauthorized physical contact with someone else’s property (like books or printer cartridges). So all your self-contradictory statements about non-touching forms of trespass don’t even touch the main issue about third party trespassing. Even without any government edicts, we would still have expressed and implied copyright contracts, as well as tort law, which would protect the owner’s and author’s from any unauthorized copying of their unique property.

    Published: April 23, 2007 5:20 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    I am not in disarray, but I must be communicating poorly.

    By physical contact I meant contact of matter and/or energy. Perhaps an example will help. Suppose I wanted to hurt your face. Two options are:

    a) punch you with my fist, involves contact between my property (body) and yours (body)

    b) burn you with a laser or torch, involves contact between my property (item) and yours (body)

    Do you now see how physical contact of property is always involved? I hope you now see what I meant by “That statement, of course, attaches all property to its proper owner, since self-ownership is the root of all property.”

    If Dr. Kinsella supported the idea of trespass without physical contact, then I do not think he considered it in terms of matter and energy.

    Misunderstanding what I meant, you went on to say that the owners and authors would be protected from unauthorized copying – absolutely, I assume. Once you see that there must be contact for trespass, you will notice that there will only be protection from invasive means of copying not from passive means. To “protect” from passive observation would violate the property rights of the observer.

    Published: April 23, 2007 6:09 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Great progress Kevin B:
    “contact of matter and/or energy.”

    Dr. Kinsella will love that one (check this out: http://blog.mises.org/archives/006000.asp).

    Anyway, if someone’s service is consisting of emitting some kind of energy (like the one needed for watching DVD content) — when you watch someone’s DVD without owner’s permission you are indeed trespassing unintentionally (there is a contact between your body and someone else’s energy).

    Also, if you switch on your flashlight in order to glance at someone else’s book, you are committing a trespass (your light is getting in contact with someone else’s book:). You now have to concede that people who have any kind of contact with someone else’s book, without owner’s permission, are also committing a trespass. That’s a great progress from someone who tried to deny all of the copyright — and now trying to deny only a small portion of it (although with one serious problem, which I’ll cover below).

    Anyway, you only chose 2 (TWO) out of countless ways in which someone may cause an injury (including financial) against someone else. But what happened to voyeurs who never transmit anything toward your home, but they may broadcast your private life, making money? Once again, your scientistic definition of trespass does not cover that situation, while Mises’s definition of ownership would allow for protection against such invasion of privacy. Anyway, now we’re back at the narrow fringe of this topic.

    Published: April 23, 2007 9:12 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    We’re still disagreeing, but at least we’re on the same wavelength. 🙂

    The web link didn’t work. HTTP 404.

    Anyway, let’s get to it:

    Anyway, if someone’s service is consisting of emitting some kind of energy (like the one needed for watching DVD content) — when you watch someone’s DVD without owner’s permission you are indeed trespassing unintentionally (there is a contact between your body and someone else’s energy).

    You’re saying that I took the DVD without the owner’s permission, or used the owner’s DVD player without permission, or even watched the owner’s DVD on his/her TV without permission and either way it’s trespass. 100% agreement. +1=1

    Also, if you switch on your flashlight in order to glance at someone else’s book, you are committing a trespass (your light is getting in contact with someone else’s book:).

    Yesiree. We have measurement. We have trespass. 1+1=2

    You now have to concede that people who have any kind of contact with someone else’s book, without owner’s permission, are also committing a trespass.

    Uh oh. Not so fast. Who’s initiating the contact? If the owner shines his light of his book, presenting it to me, without prior contract (etc. etc.), then he is co-mingling his property with mine. So does his co-mingling action with my property, the adding of value to my property without permission, give him some rights to my property? That would allow someone to alter another’s body without permission and to claim ownership to the alteration. Who’s trespassing who here? 2-1=1

    But what happened to voyeurs who never transmit anything toward your home, but they may broadcast your private life, making money? Once again, your scientistic definition of trespass does not cover that situation, while Mises’s definition of ownership would allow for protection against such invasion of privacy. Anyway, now we’re back at the narrow fringe of this topic.

    Au contraire! I did cover the voyeur. He is not trespassing in that case. Keep your curtains closed you somewhat free-spirited exhibitionist! 🙂

    The definition I have offered is quite solid and indeed measurable. Yours is a little fuzzy, but not too bad given how far the world is from either conclusion. Though I would still disagree in depth, I would nevertheless accept your methods of the current practice.

    I conclude that I’ve benefited from this conversation. Final score: 1

    Published: April 24, 2007 12:43 AM

  • Kevin B.

    I meant to say, “I would nevertheless accept your methods over the current practice.”

    Published: April 24, 2007 12:47 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    So you finally agree that free market copyright would be enforceable through contract and tort — but you try to reduce the scope of what we consider “use” in acts of trespass against someone else’s property.

    Without qualifying “passive” activities as “uses” of market services — you could never have any enforceable contracts that pertain to such activity. If your didn’t “use” the services of your shoe-shine boy — you could simply walk away without paying anything to him…. Oh, by the way, when you sit on that chair, he will start cleaning your shoes without even asking you, because that’s an excellent example of implied contract (he presumes that you didn’t sit on that chair to rest). Unfortunately, you still don’t seem to understand the common law: if someone starts shining your shoes — and you just watch that person do it, you are in fact having an implied contract with that person and you will owe the compensation. The same goes even if someone paints your fence — ask any lawyer.

    I think you are still confused when it comes to the issue of what “using someone’s service” means. You don’t have to initiate a physical contact through matter and energy in order to enjoy someone’s service. Some services are consisted of enjoying someone else’s matter and energy. In your theory, I could simply walk into a day-spa, allow a masseuse to initiate the physical contact with my body — and than just run away without paying — claiming I never used any of their services, since I haven’t initiate any kind of contact in a massage. If you try to say that spas could charge you for just laying on their table, that would be equally absurd, since then they could refuse to give you a massage and still charge you for visit… So many services, from just watching a DVD to strip-tease are based on passive use…

    But if you think about it harder, your definition isn’t far from mine — the passive use of someone’s service is always user’s choice (back to implied contract theory). If I walk into a room in which someone’s showing a copyrighted DVD content, I can choose not to watch it. If I do watch it, that’s a harmless trespass, however, if I use this trespass to cause some financial injury to the author, I would still be liable.

    By the way, your defense of voyeurism is not convincing. Voyeurs are not about sexual exploitation, but the feeling of control (playing all-seeing god’s eye). They can go-off by filming your hypothetical daughter in your garden (when you don’t have any curtains), on her way to school — and actually broadcast and sell this materials to other sickoes… And you would defend their “right” to do it freely? Without accepting Mises’s definition of ownership (which is really broad and fuzzy, but intentionally) you actually would have to defend these horrible acts. I wouldn’t and I think it makes a perfect sense.

    Anyway, welcome to the free-market pro-copyright bandwagon 🙂

    Published: April 24, 2007 5:32 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Unfortunately, you still don’t seem to understand the common law: if someone starts shining your shoes — and you just watch that person do it, you are in fact having an implied contract with that person and you will owe the compensation. The same goes even if someone paints your fence — ask any lawyer.

    I never denied that current law recognizes many implied contracts. In fact, it is quite often stated that we have an implied contract with the State, whether you and I agree or not. Regardless, I am saying that under an ancap system of justice, some of today’s implied contracts would not be deemed so, and people would behave differently.

    I suppose that, since I am without Mises’s really broad and fuzzy definition of ownership, I must defend those sickoes.

    After you mentioned financial injuries a few times, I had an entertaining thought: How would Sasha’s tort system look in a barter economy?

    I imagine a young man overhears a good piece of advice from an older man, an unintentional trespass. The young man then tells a prostitute that he has some good advice, and the prostitute trades sex for the advice. Well, the old man hears the story and takes the young man to court. So, for restitution, what does the old man get? Sex or good advice?

    Published: April 24, 2007 6:37 PM

  • Kevin B.

    I would like to point out that you have been taking very obvious examples of acceptance and presenting them as if they would fall outside my definition of trespass. In both of your last examples, the shoe-shine boy and the spa, you present me as actively engaging in the service of another. If you wished to be more truthful to my definition, this is how your examples would read:

    Sasha: Oh, by the way, when the boy forces the chair beneath your butt, he will start cleaning your shoes without even asking you, because that’s an excellent example of implied contract (he presumes that he didn’t put that chair underneath you for you to rest). Unfortunately, you still don’t seem to understand the common law: if someone starts shining your shoes — and you just watch that person do it, you are in fact having an implied contract with that person and you will owe the compensation.

    Sasha: In your theory, someone could build a spa around me, a masseuse would initiate physical contact with my body — and then I could leave afterward without paying them the payment that they said I owed them — claiming their services were forced on me, since I hadn’t entered the spa or even said that I wanted a massage.

    I’m sure that if you think my argument is flawed, then you have the imagination to give an example without altering the essentials of my definition of trespass.

    Published: April 24, 2007 7:21 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    “Regardless, I am saying that under an ancap system of justice, some of today’s implied contracts would not be deemed so, and people would behave differently.”

    Whatever dude, saying something – does not make it so. Common law wonderfully preserved free-market principles and it crystallized them through centuries of human experience. Whenever you silently and implied by fact enjoy someone’s services without asking this service-provider not to deliver it — you are actually having an implied contract. The fact that you are ready to defend voyeur sickoes only shows your stubbornness in sticking to something that’s clearly wrong. However, I think you missed my point:
    – if passive enjoyment of some service (like a massage, viewing DVD content, or someone’s body) is a legitimate “use” of market services (and it is — since we have market contracts for obtaining these uses), then it is also quite possible to have unauthorized uses, or trespasses in these kinds of activities. It seems like you are trying to deny this tautology, if I understood you correctly.

    Shoe-shine boys do not push chairs underneath someone’s butt — and people don’t normally get forced to watch someone’s movie. If you (‘passively”) use some services without paying for them, your trespass may be too insignificant to yield a much more expensive court case…. However, you should not be allowed to use such trespass to inflict a more serious financial injury upon your victim (like copying just one copy of a DVD, which is benign — and then deciding to upload it online for millions of people).

    You asked something rather absurd:

    ““After you mentioned financial injuries a few times, I had an entertaining thought: How would Sasha’s tort system look in a barter economy?”

    Now, why would I imagine something so silly?

    First of all, you forget that libertarians argue that slave contracts are unenforceable (it is the biological fact that you have the sole control over the services of your body) and that no one should be forced to work (be enslaved) — even in cases of someone who refuses to deliver a service that was paid for.

    Even if you pay me for a delivery of 100 hamburgers, and I decide not to make them — I could not be forced by any court to make this burgers… I could just refuse to work. However, the court can ask for monetary or any kind of material compensation in the value of those goods that I didn’t deliver.

    So there’s your answer: the young man will owe whatever the court determines to be the value of the advice. Even in your twisted world, in which there is no money (some kind of universally accepted good used as a medium of exchange), you would still have some material compensation in the amount of some good (representing the free-market compensation that would be necessary to obtain this “advice” if the “young man” decided to obtain it through legal means). Satisfied?

    I’m sure that if you think my argument is flawed, then you have the imagination to give an example without altering the essentials of my definition of trespass.

    I am sure that if I really “altered” any essential of your definition of trespass, you will have no trouble of pointing out where I actually altered anything. Didn’t you say: “Uh oh. Not so fast. Who’s initiating the contact?” Well, let’s see…

    If you come to someone’s spa or sit in someone’s chair, you are not initiating any contact with personnel — and your presence there cannot be charged (if that was the case, they could refuse to provide you the service and still ask for your money). Anyway, when you enjoy the service that you are being charged for, the massage, you are not initiating any kind of contact with either matter or energy of the masseuse.

    Even in your counter-example in which someone shines his light on his book, presenting it to you, that person does not force you to read, deriving the strictly limited kind service that someone offers. Watch for implied contracts 🙂

    Published: April 24, 2007 9:58 PM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha! How, when we just finished discussing it, could you say such a thing:

    If you come to someone’s spa or sit in someone’s chair, you are not initiating any contact with personnel…

    After all that typing, you’ve forgotten already. Property ownership stems from self-ownership. If I go to someone’s spa or sit in someone’s chair, then my property’s action is the initiation of contact with his property.

    Anyway, when you enjoy the service that you are being charged for, the massage, you are not initiating any kind of contact with either matter or energy of the masseuse.

    Egad, I said be imaginative, but are you serious? You just said that I went to the spa, but I am not initiating contact?! How the hell do I enter a spa without initiating contact? Who are you? David Blaine? I don’t know what kind of magic tricks or supernatural powers you have, but the rest of us physical mortals have to come into contact with the material world to get into a spa. With your miraculous abilities, it’s no wonder people are trying to get you on tape!

    Even in your counter-example in which someone shines his light on his book, presenting it to you, that person does not force you to read, deriving the strictly limited kind service that someone offers. Watch for implied contracts

    Apparently he is forcing me to turn away, because, according to you, if I maintain my current action of observation, then my body will be altered and I will come under his partial ownership! Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. And don’t you dare – DARE try to say that I have accepted an implied contract not to share what I’ve read when someone shoves a book in my face without asking. Sicko voyeurs, move over! How rude!

    Published: April 24, 2007 11:45 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B.

    I just hope you were satisfied with my answer to your question about restitutions in barter economy. You’re welcome, anyway.

    When it comes to the massage example, you seem to be very confused. By entering someone’s spa and placing myself on a massage table, I am not engaging into any kind of physical contact with personnel who is providing any market services. Once again, my presence there, even a handshake with a receptionist, cannot be considered as a service that I can be charged for.

    The only service they would charge me for is the massage — and in that kind of service I am completely passive. Now, according to your theory, without initiation of physical contact is not a “use” of service. In other words, there can be no enforceable contracts when it comes to massages and I can just walk away without paying.

    The same absurdity is present when it comes to your defense of voyeurs who could, according to your theory, freely film and broadcast the life of your child. You simply accept obviously sick conclusion of your theory, instead of concluding that your theory is twisted and wrong.

    By the way, you don’t have to turn away when you walk into a room where someone is presenting a copyrighted movie, or when someone is showing you a copyrighted text… You can simply choose to enjoy the free service, without trying to breach an implied contract and to commit a tort of financial injury, afterwards. It’s analogous to the well-known example in which someone is trying to paint your fence by mistake… yes, he is forcing you to shout: “stop!” But so what? Go ahead and sue him for making you do that, if you can convince the court that saying that simple word caused you some kind of an expense…

    Anyway, most of the “third party” copyright violators are not forced to commit trespasses. They do that because they have an incentive to enjoy market services for the smallest price possible.

    Regards.

    Published: April 25, 2007 1:38 PM

  • Kevin B.

    t

    Published: April 26, 2007 1:36 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Your definition of property would be used as justification for the “lawful” hinderance of the action of some for the benefit of others, whose actions were not first threatened. That is a partial taking of self-ownership. Is that not intentional trespass?

    In your own words:

    It’s analogous to the well-known example in which someone is trying to paint your fence by mistake… yes, he is forcing you to shout: “stop!” But so what? Go ahead and sue him for making you do that, if you can convince the court that saying that simple word caused you some kind of an expense… (italics mine)

    It appears that you would reduce the self-ownership of others for your own material gain, all in the name of self-ownership, of course. Your argument is illogical.

    Published: April 26, 2007 1:46 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin B,

    Uh… What?

    Asking someone to respect his implied contract does not take away anyone’s self-ownership. You have choice not to make such contract and if someone trespasses against your property — ask him to leave.

    I’m not advocating taking anyone’s self-ownership. Let’s go closer to our topic: if I send you my product for free personal use (for free), and I clearly explain this to you — and you accept such use — that doesn’t mean that you are now entitled for full ownership of that product (including commercial rights).

    The fact that you don’t understand some arguments does not mean that they are illogical. Try to be more modest.

    Published: April 27, 2007 10:45 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Regarding your painter scenario, I am not arguing that it wouldn’t be interpreted by some, even in a contractual society, as a quasi-contract. I am simply trying to point out that it is illogical.

    I assumed that you would agree that our right to action is only limited by the equal rights of others. If that was an error, then let me know. That rule seems to me to be a necessary consequence of complete self-ownership, but you may disagree.

    If you do agree, then consider this:

    We own ourselves. Our property is an extension of our self-ownership. To alter another’s property without permission is a trespass, whether intentional or not. To force others to assist you denies their complete self-ownership.

    Your painter commits an unintentional trespass when he paints the fence. If the owner does not mind, he forgives the trespass. Allowing the painter to continue may be considered rude, but it is not trespass, since he is not compelling the painter in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the owner is allowing the painter to make a mistake. For the painter to demand that the owner stop him would be to force the owner to action against his will – trespass! The “implied contract” is trespass!

    If it must be that “ownership is a full control of services that can be derived from a good,” then in the painter’s full control, he painted the wrong fence, he made a mistake, he wasted his labor, he provided a service for free, he, he, he.

    Your example of implied contract is a welfare contract, forcing others to work to protect the fools. If the law agrees with you in this case, then the law is foolish. If it is doing so in the name of self-ownership, then it is illogical as well.

    I understand your argument full well, Sasha. You want me to prevent you from making a mistake. Well Sasha, that’s my choice and not yours.

    Published: April 28, 2007 4:28 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin said: “To alter another’s property without permission is a trespass, whether intentional or not.”

    The problem here is: the permission you refer to can also be implied in fact. Person can make an honest mistake, without being an idiot, but in this scenario you can prevent someone’s mistake (trespass) by a simple “stop” (or by not using product someone sends you for personal use).

    If you choose not to say anything — you actually don’t have a trespass case. You actions can only be interpreted as welcoming this particular kind of service and you will be responsible for this implied contract.

    Imagine that an attractive call-girl gets to my apartment by mistake (she was told just to come in and to proceed to the bathroom). When I see her, don’t ask her leave, but instead I let her pleasure me with her services. After all night worth of her labor, I decide not to pay her anything, but to actually declare her entry as a trespass, although I more than welcomed her — don’t you see a problem with this?

    The absence of price negotiations will really help you in painter’s scenario (you will be responsible for the cheapest price possible). However, when it comes to products that someone sends you for free, you really have nothing to complain about — if you accept this kind of service, you cannot lawfully assume more expensive uses that were never given to you by the rightful owner.

    Regards.

    PS

    I agree. Nobody can prevent you from making mistakes that you consciously choose. I just tried to point out that insisting on these mistakes seems absurd. If your conclusions are clearly wrong and even twisted (like your defense of someone who stalks your hypothetical child and broadcasts her life over the internet), something is obviously wrong with your premises. Since you refuse to reconsider these arguments, I guess we will not move a millimeter further in these discussions? Nevertheless, the fact that you accepted the principles of free-market copyright shows a great progress on your part and maybe I’m expecting too much now.

    Published: April 28, 2007 4:58 AM

  • Kevin B.

    In case I haven’t been clear enough:

    In an otherwise blank scenario, if the painter tells me that he will paint my fence for $5 and then I ask him to paint my fence, then, of course, I owe him $5. If he begins to paint my house as well, then I still owe him $5, even if I do nothing to stop him.

    True story:

    A couple of months ago, I went to Best Buy and purchased a computer for about $1500. When I got home, I realized they had given me a more expensive model that went for around $2000. I thought about returning it, and if they happened to show up at my door with the right one, then I would have returned it, but, since otherwise I would gain nothing, I decided to keep it.

    It ended up breaking a few days later, and so I returned it anyway. They quickly realized it was the wrong one. Did they accuse me of trespass? No, they apologized for giving me the wrong model. They even commented that it would have been a great deal had it not broken. I agreed and soon left with my new correct model. I’m sure the salesman left that day with something new as well, a new reprimand.

    Published: April 28, 2007 5:12 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    PS

    I didn’t see your last post before I wrote mine. I can’t believe you’re awake…and here!

    Published: April 28, 2007 5:15 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Red Bull kicked in 🙂

    Anyway, Best Buy did what it did — for exactly this reason: great advertisement. Legally, things stand as I said. Our hypothetical painter is well-known business law example, and I explained why your welcoming actions do not demonstrate any trespass on his part.

    Anyway — imagine that Best Buy gave you an extra product by mistake — and then after you use it, you decide that they actually trespassed against you. You decide to sue them for storage fee 🙂 That’s what your theory is suggesting.

    Anyway, as I said: you can accept some services for free, and many sellers will do that for you (advertisement will pay for it) — however, you cannot lawfully assume more expensive uses that were never given to you by the rightful owner.

    Published: April 28, 2007 5:37 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    And one more “anyway” — I think you’re done with concessions on this thread… Maybe I should do something else 🙂

    Published: April 28, 2007 5:43 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    Imagine that an attractive call-girl gets to my apartment by mistake (she was told just to come in and to proceed to the bathroom). When I see her, don’t ask her leave, but instead I let her pleasure me with her services. After all night worth of her labor, I decide not to pay her anything, but to actually declare her entry as a trespass, although I more than welcomed her — don’t you see a problem with this?

    Not for you, you lucky dog!

    Seriously, her entry was an unintentional trespass, since you accepted it after the fact. I agree that the “night worth of her labor” would not be trespass, and that I seem to have overlooked that in the painter scenario from my earlier post, but, unless she mentioned the price, there was no price. Have you considered that perhaps a friend of his sent her over? That happens…and that’s one of the troubles with people assuming implied contracts such as these – they are ignorant of all of the possibilities.

    If your conclusions are clearly wrong and even twisted (like your defense of someone who stalks your hypothetical child and broadcasts her life over the internet), something is obviously wrong with your premises.

    Are you suggesting that the ends justify the means?

    Anyway — imagine that Best Buy gave you an extra product by mistake — and then after you use it, you decide that they actually trespassed against you. You decide to sue them for storage fee 🙂 That’s what your theory is suggesting.

    I suppose that my use would imply acceptance, but not price. If they realize their mistake, then they must make the effort to retrieve it. They cannot recoup their labor losses.

    Anyway, as I said: you can accept some services for free, and many sellers will do that for you (advertisement will pay for it) — however, you cannot lawfully assume more expensive uses that were never given to you by the rightful owner.

    The defining characteristic of a free gift is that there are no strings attached. In trade, there must be agreement before there is contract. If someone offers me a service and asks for nothing in return, he cannot say that I agreed to a price. Handing me a knife, he cannot say that I agreed not to use it – in any way. Now that would be an assumption.

    Allow me to counter your sex scenario:

    Suppose that instead of a hooker, there is a vagrant. Instead of sex, he washes your window. Now, many people give him money afterward, but does that mean it is implied that you will as well? Suppose he wears a sign that says, “$1 per window.” Would your inaction be agreement? I gather that you would say so, but what if there were hundreds of them, driving you nuts to have to say no all the time. See that their action is forcing you to action.

    I had to change it from hookers, because nobody would believe that you would say no. ;P

    Published: April 28, 2007 6:01 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Kevin said:
    ‘I agree that the “night worth of her labor” would not be trespass, and that I seem to have overlooked that in the painter scenario from my earlier post

    THERE YOU GO! Another mile forward from you 🙂 Now, since there is no trespass when it comes to services in question (once again, we can’t charge someone for entering the room), here comes the issue of price. You can stop assuming that someone bought a call-girl for you, since that’s not part of our scenario. When someone delivers goods and/or services by mistake, it is true that you didn’t negotiate the price. However, you decided to obtain and enjoy these goods and services — and you will owe a compensation. The court will determine the amount of compensation and there’s nothing strange about that. That’s what tort is all about.

    Furthermore, if someone gives you a specific use of his product without any strings attached — that doesn’t mean that he gave you the full ownership rights over that item. You cannot legally have more rights than you actually got from the owner. If I give you my car for your personal use (and I make you aware of that), you can’t lawfully assume the full-ownership over my property.

    —–

    PS
    I never said that end justifies means. I only said that if your conclusion is clearly wrong from the perspective of substantive self-ownership, something must be wrong with your premises (assuming that your logic is valid — and it is). If ownership means the control over all services that can be derived from a good, our self-ownership should give us the control over the broadcasting rights of our private lives. This becomes clearer when I use a “child vs. adult voyeur stalker” as an example. However, you can see that this isn’t even crucial for my copyright argument. That’s why I put this under the post scriptum.

    Published: April 28, 2007 6:55 AM

  • Kevin B.

    Sasha,

    If I give you my car for your personal use (and I make you aware of that), you can’t lawfully assume the full-ownership over my property.

    Bravo! You must first make me aware of limitations before I accept the property for limitations on ownership to be accepted. If you are given a piece of property without agreeing to conditions beforehand, then the rights to the property are unlimited.

    The court will determine the amount of compensation and there’s nothing strange about that.

    There is something strange about owing compensation for a gift.

    If ownership means the control over all services that can be derived from a good, our self-ownership should give us the control over the broadcasting rights of our private lives.Your self-ownership gives you control of your actions. You can remain in control, even if you are being recorded. One may choose to give certain property to others, even when one is too ignorant to realize it, i.e. walking around naked on the lawn.

    THERE YOU GO! Another mile forward from you 🙂

    Wisdom includes the tendency to reconsider one’s own position. Consider yourself formally invited.

    Published: April 30, 2007 3:18 PM

Share
{ 1 comment }

From Mises Blog:

Re: Patents and Utilitarian Thinking Redux: Stiglitz on using Prizes to Stimulate Innovation

12/28/2006

In a previous post, I noted that Nobel-prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz had advocated replacing the patent system with a system for “awarding prizes”—presumably taxpayer funded—for innovations and inventions. In Scrooge and intellectual property rights, Stiglitz endorses a “medical prize fund” that “would give large rewards for cures or vaccines for diseases,” which “prizes could be funded by governments in advanced industrial countries.” Two cheers for capitalism! Or is that the other one?

Archived comments:

Comments (52)

  • Don Lloyd

    ‘Previous post’ has no link.

    Regards, Don

    Published: December 28, 2006 5:36 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    It just shows that all socialist are united in their opposition to anything that resembles private property rights (although these rights are currently crippled by state intervention and even hard to recognize when it comes to copyright).

    The only difference is that some leftist extremists here propose free and unrestricted violation of contracts that prohibit commercial use of someone’s invention – based on society’s “needs”… While others like Stiglitz advocate the complete prohibition of any contracts that specify or restrict someone else’s use of your product – and they offer taxpayers money as a substitute for this legalized trespass.

    Published: December 28, 2006 9:48 AM

  • scineram

    What you said does not make any sense, Sasha.

    Published: December 28, 2006 3:23 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Scineram,

    It certainly makes sense, but perhaps you need more clarification than an average person? Or you are just trying to be malicious?

    I just tried to point out how very different socialists are united over their hatred for private contracts, including those that would protect terms of use known as copyright.
    – Leftist activists on this blog are advocating that people should freely violate their free-market contracts (upon which the property rights are based) if their “need” dictates them to do so…
    – Stiglitz, on the other hand, is advocating the same thing, but he also proposes some socialist incentive (from taxpayer’s money) in order to keep the inventors from dying out (he is at least aware of what communism in commercial use of someone else’s products would do to producers’ incentives).

    Published: December 28, 2006 4:14 PM

  • David C

    Sasha said,

    “It just shows that all socialist are united in their opposition to anything that resembles private property rights (although these rights are currently crippled by state intervention and even hard to recognize when it comes to copyright).”

    Yeah, of course they’re hard to recognize with copyright. That’s because copyright isn’t a property right. Even you, when pressed, call it a contract right, so why do you keep calling it a “property” unless you are trying to mis-represent the truth. BTW, socialists also love to control information and how people use ideas.

    “The only difference is that some leftist extremists here propose free and unrestricted violation of contracts that prohibit commercial use of someone’s invention – based on society’s “needs”… While others like Stiglitz advocate the complete prohibition of any contracts that specify or restrict someone else’s use of your product – and they offer taxpayers money as a substitute for this legalized trespass.”

    Well, contract rights inherently have the following characteristics:

      1. Contract rights are two way binding agreements – which means that if I send you a letter in mail that says “by opening this, you agree to pay me 100 bucks” – that contract is invalid. So clearly the act of declaring or having a work copyrighted has no binding. 
      2. Contract rights are non binding to 3rd parties, this is obvious, but clearly if you choose to sue a 3rd party for tort when it is the first one that broke the contract. Then you are binding a 3rd party to a contract.

     

     

      1. Contract rights can not deny “free will”. This is why you can not sign a contract that says, I will believe this religion, or I will be a slave, or if I fail the terms you have a right to revoke my free speech and shoot me in the head. Well what about you have a right to control how I disseminate information at my disposal? Copyright
        is the “right” to control where people get their information from once the cat gets out of the bag.

     

     

      1. Contracts must be proportional, that is if I agree to wash your dishes than the maximum damages must be the cost of damages caused to you by the failure to wash. This is more utilitarian because if someone sues in the courts for damages, that’s the most they’re likely to get no matter what was agreed. But there is still an element of justice to it, we don’t give people the death penalty for stealing a 5 cent sheet of paper either.

     

     

      1. Contract rights are the right of free people to make voluntary agreements, and while they can be commoditized, they are not an equivalency to property right.

     

    Any one of the tests is enough to make a contract invalid, but copyrights fail 3 of these tests conclusively and arguably fail all 5. I think anyone who looks it from a neutral point of view intuitively knows that copyrights are not contract rights. And I think it was already shown quite clearly that they are not property rights, so what are they? A socialist regulation that controls how people use ideas, information, and where they get it from.

     

     

     

     

     

    Published: December 28, 2006 10:26 PM

  • David C

    One more thing,

    When I was a physics student (a long time ago), we would propose a theory, test it in the lab, and if the test results didn’t do what was predicted then that theory was called invalid and it was back to the drawing board. Perhaps you’ve herd of this, it’s called scientific method. The only problem is that if I do that today with economics, then I’m called a “utilitarian” and my arguments are written off as not applicable to the situation. Nonsense, either freedom is rationally connected to the real world, or it’s not, in which case why care at all?

    Well, copyrights and patents are a theory that says that not forcing a monopoly on distribution of information or ideas (via whatever means) will harm creativity and incentive. The most amazing thing is, however, almost the entire Renaissance happened without a copyright. And the half the industrial revolution in the US happened while we ignored overseas patents. So copyrights and patents wern’t matching up to theory before they were even implemented.

    Was there a desperate shortage of writing that needed to be addressed, was there a desperate shortage of invention? Well, no. They had more writing and invention than in the last 1000 years before. A better theory would be: some politician wanted to earn money for himself so he got some publishers and industrialists to pay him for the placement of Private monopolies in the constitution under the guise of an incentive. At least that theory isn’t shot down before it even starts. But the most ironic thing of all: there is no foundation in law, or in the constitution, or in common law that even pretends to treat copyrights and patents like a contract right or a property right. Nope, just a government backed monopoly. In fact, the first copyrights were granted to publishers in return for not publishing bad things about the monarchy. Then they were eventually just granted to publishers. Then the system became so abused that they were outlawed, but after petitioning over and over, the publishers finally got their monopoly back so long as it was attributed to authors. Well fine, that doesn’t prove that they are not rights, but it sure doesn’t smell like the glorious fight for the freedom and liberty of the creative either.

    Which brings me to another point. They are clearly not property, they are clearly are not the source of incentive, they clearly are not the source of creativity and innovation, which begs the question. If there is such a great justification for them, then why the extraordinary effort at pushing such lies. Why should we want to have anything like them? Well, I digress.

     

    How about this for a theory: patents lead to genocide. Like millions of people in Africa needlessly dying because they were restricted from treating AIDS. Prove that I’m wrong. So far, no argument has even come close to being as compelling as the case against copyright and patent.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Published: December 29, 2006 1:30 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    David C,

    It is easy to argue against me, when you impute some statement I never gave – and than pretend like you are rebutting them. If you used my real arguments, you would have much harder time. For example, I never said that copyrights are property! I said that these are contracts that create negative obligations against unauthorized commercial use (trespass).

    —

    Now that aside,

    I don’t think it’s not a coincidence that all communists and many socialists are united around copyright-hatred. They want to find a good way to show “market imperfections” and how some voluntary market contracts would create a collapse of authorship (which would happen in many cases, if unrestricted reproduction drives prices toward zero).

    Let’s just see how I pass a typical socialist “test”

    1. “Contract rights are two way binding agreements.” Copyrights are indeed two-way binding agreements between a buyer and a seller.

    2. “Contract rights are non binding to 3rd parties”. Copyright contract would never be binding to a third party. The owner of a rented property would never sue a “third party” for his tenant’s breach of contract and owed damages. He would insist that his tenant respects his contractual obligations. The owner does care who sues some “third party” and on what grounds. The tort issue by definition (which David C did not know) is not a contractual concern.
    * THIRD PARTY WOULD NEVER BE RESPONSIBLE FOR COPYRIGHT VIOLATION! Whether that third party would be responsible for injuries to someone who happens to be in a contract has nothing to do with the contract’s validity.
    * By the way, there are no contracts in which a “third party” can be used as an excuse for contract violation. Parties must satisfy their obligations – and third parties are of no concern to any contract, including copyright.

    3. “Contract rights can not deny “free will””
    For real? Like a free will to commit a theft or trespass? You say that if I have a free will, you cannot control where I get my information… Does that include your living room, your bedroom, your PC? Well, of course that you can place negative obligations on other individuals, because property rights are based on that. If you restrict your tenant’s behavior, you are not committing any aggression – you are simply exercising your property right. The same goes for restricting what someone can do with your product – in a voluntary, free market contract. Someone who uses your product cannot just give himself a free “upgrade” or a price discount.

    4. “Contracts must be proportional, that is if I agree to wash your dishes than the maximum damages must be the cost of damages caused to you by the failure to wash.”
    Copyright specify damages that are equal to the amount of violation. Proportional…
    But seriously, copyright has nothing to do with this nonsensical condition. Copyright damages are not based on failure to perform some service. They are specified in terms of exchange. In order to obtain personal use of some product you state what price you are going to pay in money and what you will owe in damages if they occur. Giving your own discounts against these conditions would be a theft – even more so if we know that property title over these damages is transferred to the owner.

    5. “Contract rights are the right of free people to make voluntary agreements, and while they can be commoditized, they are not an equivalency to property right.”
    Nonsense. Valid contracts are clear expressions of exchanges of property titles – which are an exercise of property rights. This is also the case with copyright.

    ——

    You made me laugh with your “scientific method.” Using your logic, Dark Ages were a prosperous era without any copyrights – while modern age with their industrial revolutions is horrible. Oh, I see that you remembered Industrial Revolution in your second message, so tell me this: which great American invention was made without any authorship protection? Not even denim! By the way, first instances of modern copyrights date back to Renaissance in Republic of Venice – while “patents” based on similar protection of authorship even date back to ancient Greece (their city-states).

    Why than copyright didn’t emerge until the Renaissance period, while protection for inventions (now labeled as “patents”) have such deep roots? The answer is well-known: before printing press and wide-spread literacy, there was no need for such contracts. en during a period of a prospering book trade, during the Roman Empire, the occurrence of piracy was unlikely. This is because books were, typically, copied by expensive and high maintenance literate slaves. Because of this fact, any pirate would have had to pay much the same expense as the original publisher, effectively destroying any economic incentive for piracy.

    Again, I never claimed that “copyright is property.” By repeating this assertion, you only demonstrate your ignorance (like many times before… remember the definition of “tort” : ). Copyright is simply the protection against unauthorized use of your product. The fact that the government granted these protections is only the evidence that government held the monopoly in printing activities, which is a well-known fact (the power of printing press is best evidenced by the quick spread of Reformation/Protestantism and the way Martin Luther distributed his word).

    As far as your example with Africa goes, can you please get me a violin? You choose a wrong website to sell such demagogy. It was explained to you many times before: AIDS deaths are not caused by patents, but mostly by viruses, irresponsible actions, and self-inflicted poverty. Horrible suffering of some Starvin’ Marvin in Ethiopia cannot serve as a justification for property rights violations of someone in the USA. Africans, who, unlike European firms, pay for only personal use of some medications, cannot just “upgrade” their terms of use on their own. They need to ask nicely for such a favor, which could flood the world with generics, reducing prices and completely destroying profit incentive of pharmaceutical industry to finance a real cure for AIDS (which does not exist and will not exist, since AIDS theory is probably wrong, but that’s a separate issue).

    So stop your nonsense about “genocide” in Africa (unless you start referring to warlords and tyrants who brought these conditions upon their own people) – and start educating yourself. You mentioned that there is no mention of copyrights and patents in the Constitution. For you my poor friend, a little quote from Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 (which I hope will be amended and replaced by free-market forces), which states one of the duties of the US Congress:
    “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.”

    Published: December 29, 2006 3:33 AM

  • David C

    Sasha,

    Well technically you never said that copyrights are a property right, but in practice you are used the word “property” all over the place. Your verbal inconsistincies are matching your logical inconsistencies as well.

    “I don’t think it’s not a coincidence that all communists and many socialists are united around copyright-hatred….”

    The ones I know don’t. Hmmmmm, how come you know what socialists think so well? Hmmmmm.

    “…They want to find a good way to show “market imperfections” and how some voluntary market contracts would create a collapse of authorship (which would happen in many cases, if unrestricted reproduction drives prices toward zero).”

    Yeah, I could truly see that they’re trying to demonstrate a market imperfection with copyrights, because copyrights are anti-free market. And your notion that authorship would collapse is nonsense. Once again, just the opposite happens in free to copy environments. Your theory doesn’t match up to the real world …. think scientific method … think scientific method…..

    1) Sasha, you say that copyrights are a binding agreement between a buyer and a seller. But not to 3rd parties, are they? Not to people who didn’t sign anything, is it?

    2) That’s just a technicality. By implying that the (natural act) of copying by a 3rd party is injurious, you are still binding a 3rd party. The enquirer is injurious too when they bust into your house and take dirty photos, but doesn’t mean that the people who buy, share, and copy the Enquirer are subject to “tort”.

    3) So what are you saying, that it *IS* alright to to enter a contract that says “by doing this, I have the right to pop a bullet in your head”? You also said, “Someone who uses your product cannot just give himself a free “upgrade” or a price discount.” – they can if they’re a 3rd party. 🙂

    4) Uhh, theft isn’t defined by what one gains, but by what one looses. In this case they loose a private monopoly on distribution, not a property. The liabilities are not proportional.

    5) Yeah, technically you are correct, but in practice there is a reason why we call a contract a contract and a property a property. Perhaps you should figure that reason out.

    ——————————————

    FYI, the “first” copyrights in Venice wern’t practiced widely, and were pretty much dead for 300 years after that. The Renaissance happened without copyrights. Also, patents were originally used as a monopoly grant for anything and everything, but their abuse got so bad that they decided to just limit it to new invention. Well, it amazes me that people can see why private government granted monopolies are bad everywhere else, but not here.

    “It was explained to you many times before: AIDS deaths are not caused by patents, but mostly by viruses, irresponsible actions, and self-inflicted poverty.”

    And it was explained to you that you are forbidding these people from helping themselves and calling it a contract (property) right. If Europe is dumb enough to dupe themselves into accepting a fraudulent contract (property) right, that is their problem, not Africas. Sorry charlie, a murder called a “contract?” right is still a murder. (did you gleam my example of the pulley in the previous IP article?)

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Published: December 29, 2006 10:58 AM

  • David C

    I think the problem here is that in a perfect imaginary world it is easy to imagine these perfect fences and perfect boundaries that perfectly control all ideas and information to the satisfaction of their creators without being coerced upon anyone else. But like most statist utopian ideals, when put to practice in the real world it all goes to hell.

    Here it all goes to hell because the very nature of ideas and information goes contrary to these imaginary boundaries and fences. Just as nature tells you that gravity exists by the way things drop to the ground, this is natural laws way of telling you that patents and copyrights are intellectual sewage.

     

    Published: December 29, 2006 11:44 AM

  • Roy W. Wright

    How many thousands of posts are required before everyone realizes that Sasha is not going to be swayed by the consistent libertarian position (ie Kinsella’s)? Not that I care how you all spend your time; and after all I am taking a moment to comment on it myself.

    We have seen time and again that his arguments are empty and largely consist of redefining basic ideas to fit his biases. At other times he resorts to such arguments as “you superficially agree with the Communists on one issue and are therefore wrong,” to paraphrase. Now, you can of course continue the back-and-forth with him if you find it fruitful, but to me it’s just mildly amusing wordplay with a confused statist.

    Published: December 29, 2006 12:33 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Roy W. Wright,

     

    By “libertarian” position you probably refer to anarcho-communists who call themselves “libertarian”…

    The position against contract enforcement that is based on some demagogue’s cries about “AIDS genocide in Africa” is not a libertarian position. A collectivist claim that you can freely use someone else’s product based on your needs has nothing to do with libertarianism. Now David C imagines a wold in which our property rights “fences” will be easy to cross… That is a communist position, and you are correct – I’m not going to be persuaded by this horrible ideology.

     

    —–

     

    David,

     

    First of all – you were unable to prove that I ever claimed that copyright is property. So one more time: you lied… I never claimed copyright is not a property – because it’s a contractual restriction in terms of use that comes from our property rights over some piece of property.

     

    Your ‘5 point test” was a joke. Now you can only lick you wounds, tell that my responses were correct but just “technicalities” – and you try to switch the subject to assisted suicides – as if they have anything to do with issue of terms of exchange. When you arrange your terms of exchange, you may think that you were stupid and that you overpaid your personal use of some product. But you cannot change those terms on your own and allow yourself a discount or an “upgrade” against the owner’s consent.

    * Some “third party” will never be a concern of a contract – and as anyone who ever signed a contract knows – you cannot use that “third party” as an excuse for contract violation. The seller does not care if you later sue someone outside of contract for tort – and that is not a part of the contract law (I mean dude, now you know that “tort” refers to injury other than breach of contract).…

     

    You tried to invent a completely new history and I had to correct so many of your inaccuracies and ignorant assertions – and now the only defense you have is (allow me to paraphrase you):

    “Yes I said that nonsense about world being more prosperous in (dark) ages without copyrights and patents, I still owe you a list of great American inventions that are not patented, I lied about the Constitution – but now all I have to say is: copyright was not practice widely – and forget about my patents claims”…

    WOW! So you discovered that printing (and hence copyright) was not massive until the industrial revolution and capabilities for reproduction. I’m so impressed.

    PS
    By the way, African poverty is self-inflicted, as well as many cases of AIDS (which is a common name for immune-deficiency which does not have to correlate with the presence of HIV).

    Published: December 29, 2006 1:46 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Roy W. Wright,

     

    By “libertarian” position you probably refer to anarcho-communists who call themselves “libertarian”…

    The position against contract enforcement that is based on some demagogue’s cries about “AIDS genocide in Africa” is not a libertarian position. A collectivist claim that you can freely use someone else’s product based on your needs has nothing to do with libertarianism. Now David C imagines a wold in which our property rights “fences” will be easy to cross… That is a communist position, and you are correct – I’m not going to be persuaded by this horrible ideology.

     

    —–

     

    David,

     

    First of all – you were unable to prove that I ever claimed that copyright is property. So one more time: you lied… I never claimed copyright is not a property – because it’s a contractual restriction in terms of use that comes from our property rights over some piece of property.

     

    Your ‘5 point test” was a joke. Now you can only lick you wounds, tell that my responses were correct but just “technicalities” – and you try to switch the subject to assisted suicides – as if they have anything to do with issue of terms of exchange. When you arrange your terms of exchange, you may think that you were stupid and that you overpaid your personal use of some product. But you cannot change those terms on your own and allow yourself a discount or an “upgrade” against the owner’s consent.

    * Some “third party” will never be a concern of a contract – and as anyone who ever signed a contract knows – you cannot use that “third party” as an excuse for contract violation. The seller does not care if you later sue someone outside of contract for tort – and that is not a part of the contract law (I mean dude, now you know that “tort” refers to injury other than breach of contract).…

     

    You tried to invent a completely new history and I had to correct so many of your inaccuracies and ignorant assertions – and now the only defense you have is (allow me to paraphrase you):

    “Yes I said that nonsense about world being more prosperous in (dark) ages without copyrights and patents, I still owe you a list of great American inventions that are not patented, I lied about the Constitution – but now all I have to say is: copyright was not practice widely – and forget about my patents claims”…

    WOW! So you discovered that printing (and hence copyright) was not massive until the industrial revolution and capabilities for reproduction. I’m so impressed.

    PS
    By the way, African poverty is self-inflicted, as well as many cases of AIDS (which is a common name for immune-deficiency which does not have to correlate with the presence of HIV).

    Published: December 29, 2006 1:47 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Roy W. Wright,

     

    By “libertarian” position you probably refer to anarcho-communists who call themselves “libertarian”…

    The position against contract enforcement that is based on some demagogue’s cries about “AIDS genocide in Africa” is not a libertarian position. A collectivist claim that you can freely use someone else’s product based on your needs has nothing to do with libertarianism. Now David C imagines a wold in which our property rights “fences” will be easy to cross… That is a communist position, and you are correct – I’m not going to be persuaded by this horrible ideology.

     

    —–

     

    David,

     

    First of all – you were unable to prove that I ever claimed that copyright is property. So one more time: you lied… I never claimed copyright is not a property – because it’s a contractual restriction in terms of use that comes from our property rights over some piece of property.

     

    Your ‘5 point test” was a joke. Now you can only lick you wounds, tell that my responses were correct but just “technicalities” – and you try to switch the subject to assisted suicides – as if they have anything to do with issue of terms of exchange. When you arrange your terms of exchange, you may think that you were stupid and that you overpaid your personal use of some product. But you cannot change those terms on your own and allow yourself a discount or an “upgrade” against the owner’s consent.

    * Some “third party” will never be a concern of a contract – and as anyone who ever signed a contract knows – you cannot use that “third party” as an excuse for contract violation. The seller does not care if you later sue someone outside of contract for tort – and that is not a part of the contract law (I mean dude, now you know that “tort” refers to injury other than breach of contract).…

     

    You tried to invent a completely new history and I had to correct so many of your inaccuracies and ignorant assertions – and now the only defense you have is (allow me to paraphrase you):

    “Yes I said that nonsense about world being more prosperous in (dark) ages without copyrights and patents, I still owe you a list of great American inventions that are not patented, I lied about the Constitution – but now all I have to say is: copyright was not practice widely – and forget about my patents claims”…

    WOW! So you discovered that printing (and hence copyright) was not massive until the industrial revolution and capabilities for reproduction. I’m so impressed.

    PS
    By the way, African poverty is self-inflicted, as well as many cases of AIDS (which is a common name for immune-deficiency which does not have to correlate with the presence of HIV).

    Published: December 29, 2006 1:47 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    My browser was messing me up… I am sorry about messages.

    Published: December 29, 2006 1:49 PM

  • David C

    Sasha,

    “The position against contract enforcement that is based on some demagogue’s cries about “AIDS genocide in Africa” is not a libertarian position.”

    Yes it is. It has always been a libertarian position that taking away peoples liberties causes great harm and death. You took away their liberty to copy and use medicine for AIDS. You keep saying that they’re violating a contract, or a property, or the soup of the day, but still fail to make a compelling case.

    ——————–

    “…you were unable to prove that I ever claimed that copyright is property. So one more time: you lied… I never claimed copyright is not a property…”

    So you never claim to call copyright a property, then you never claim to say it’s not a property, then you call it a contract, but call a contract a property that you never claim copyright to be. Well your problem is that copyrights are not a contract right nor a property right because they are not a right at all – switching terms around a bunch isn’t going to help you.

    The technicalities in the 5 point test were technicalities in your wording and semantics, not technicalities in the nature of what’s valid to make a contract. Like hint, 3rd parties, 2way binding… I’m waiting….

    It is you that doesn’t seem to understand that “tort” refers to injury other than breach of contract. You’re the one claiming damage relating to a broken contract that the public mob never broke.

    Dude, copyrights didn’t exist thru much of the Renaissance, and patents were monopolies granted on everything even salt mining, go back to your history books, that’s just the way it was.

     

    And about the constitution. My quote was “…
    there is no foundation in law, or in the constitution, or in common law that even pretends to treat copyrights and patents like a contract right or a property right…” notice how I didn’t say it wasn’t in the constitution – I only said that it wasn’t treated like a property right or a contract right, but a government granted monopoly. That’s because it is.

    Finally, the correlation between the industrial revolution and patents and copyrights is no different that the correlation between the industrial revolution and the rise of communism. Your point clearly displays the kind of invalid logic that copyrights and patents must rely on for their sustenance. It certainly can’t rely on the facts.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Published: December 29, 2006 4:52 PM

  • Brian Macker

    “In fact, the first copyrights were granted to publishers in return for not publishing bad things about the monarchy. … Well fine, that doesn’t prove that they are not rights, but it sure doesn’t smell like the glorious fight for the freedom and liberty of the creative either.”

    You know the first time I heard this argument it was from Roderick T. Long. I don’t remember the paper precisely but as I recall he didn’t balance this with other important information. My first thought on reading it was a totally specious argument as you have admitted.

    My second thought was that it was a little deceptive not to also bring up the fact that during the middle ages property title was also held as a grant from the King. If this counts against copyrights it also counts against land titles. Oops.

    Most of the arguments against copyrights and patents are specious like this. There are proper concerns about patents and they were addressed by Rothbard. He was on the right track and certainly not someone who would have advocated intrusive government monopolies.

    All these arguments about how better we would be off without copyrights are specious. We might be “better off” if we allowed women to be doped and unconciously raped. That doesn’t mean we have the right to do so.

    Please drop the specious arguments when they have been shown to be so. Stop bringing them back up.

    I’m tired of hearing how fast technology would move forward without patents and copyright. Especially when they use the example of the software industry. I work in that industry and let me tell you that besides government funded projects most software firms were very dependent on the copyright laws.

    I absolutely would not have been able to make a paycheck at the startup I was working at back in 1981 if copyrights did not apply to software. Believe me I wasn’t about to work for free. I never would have went into software. If I had I probably would have had to seek employment at some government funded institution.

    I wish people would just stop making stuff up.

    Published: December 29, 2006 5:27 PM

  • David C

    Brian Macker,

    It goes both ways. Correlating copyrights to land title can be considered deceptive too, and we are “better off” if we permit or allow copyrights and patent monopolies – is the argument that I always hear. Those arguments are just as specious.

    Being in the software industry, sometimes I have benefited from copyright, sometimes I haven’t. But I’m not going to let that stop me from telling the truth as I see it. One time I was at a software conference and it was asked how many developers work in-house, vs how many developers work on a commercial product. About 75% worked in-house – and that statistic matches my personal experience in the industry, and other polls I’ve seen as well. The influence and success of free software is not made up. The information age is doing for services what the industrial revolution did for production. When people try to monetize the content value of a product instead of the service value, they do not have any idea of the freight train they are standing in front of.

     

     

    Published: December 29, 2006 8:11 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    David C,

    I know this hard for you to understand, but try it anyway:

    “Copyright” is not a name of a piece of property. It is a name of “restrictive terms of use of someone’s product”.

    I did not claim anything else. If you are not capable to understand my point, that’s not my problem… But you should jump to your conclusions based on your misunderstanding and ignorance.

    After you tried to invent your own test for validity of contracts, now you try something even more absurd. You said:

    “You’re the one claiming damage relating to a broken contract that the public mob never broke.”

    HOLD ON! You still don’t understand what is tort. Tort is the injury that is committed by the third party to my buyer. There is no contractual relationship between the buyer and this third party.

    You don’t understand that third party did not commit a breach of contract against the buyer – and this by definition makes it a tort case. This party committed the property injury by the act of trespass! That is why this is the tort. Third party is not bound by any contract and that is not a “technicality” as you call it.

    David C said: “Finally, the correlation between the industrial revolution and patents and copyrights is no different that the correlation between the industrial revolution and the rise of communism.”

    WAIT A MOMENT! Rise of the communism where? In the 18th and 19th century United Kingdom and United States… or in almost feudal Russia in the 20th century? Nevermind, whatever… you showed enough of your historical “knowledge” and critical thinking… Still – it was you who started with these absurd correlations in order to prove that Dark Ages and era without patents was more prosperous than the era in which copyright and patents existed. I did not concern myself with utilitarian arguments, since anyone who understands the law of demand and supply knows what would happen if you could freely violate copyright contracts and have unrestricted use of someone else’s property (communism).

    By the way – the fact that the US Constitution provides government’s protection of copyrights – does not deny that copyrights are still the protection of someone’s property from unwanted use. By the same token, the fact that the same article of the Constitution allows Congress to regulate interstate commerce- does not make such commerce something evil and non-libertarian. Again, learn more about history and you will understand the power of printing and why governments monopolized copyright protection and enforcement, and why the historical records show patents so early and copyright later in history of mankind.

    Published: December 29, 2006 11:33 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    To prevent some further misunderstanding about “third-party” involvement in copyright (or any other) contract:

    In tort, you can sue for loss of earnings (consequence of broken labor contract) caused by the third party negligent trespass. For example, if I park my truck on your property, blocking your car and preventing you from going to work and earning your money (and you tried everything to show up at work and you were unsuccessful) – I cannot defend myself by claiming I have nothing with your injury, because I am not a party to your labor contract. That is not a “technicality” – it is a tort.

    Published: December 30, 2006 9:38 AM

  • Wild Pegasus

    Saying that patents and copyrights are “monopolies” is true but uninteresting. All property rights are monopolies. The question is which ones are justified.

    For all the anti-IP talk here, I’ve never seen a good reason to change my view that using what I’ve created without my permission is anything but theft, whether ethereal or physical.

    As for socialism, socialists say that the workers ought to own the means of production. What does that have to do with patents?

    – Josh

    Published: December 30, 2006 12:25 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    “As for socialism, socialists say that the workers ought to own the means of production. What does that have to do with patents?”

    —-

    They actually prefer “common ownership.” Patented and copyrighted products are means of production… That’s where their agenda is coming from. They are trying to get unrestricted access to someone else’s property rights over their products, and they are trying to rewrite legal theory in order to prevent these creators from making contracts which would allow someone’s personal use, while restricting other types of use… Once they create a precedent of free unauthorized use of someone’s property (communism) they will be one step closer to their goal of total abolishment of private ownership of means of production.

     

    Published: December 30, 2006 1:13 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Sasha:

    HOLD ON! You still don’t understand what is tort. Tort is the injury that is committed by the third party to my buyer. There is no contractual relationship between the buyer and this third party.

     

    You don’t understand that third party did not commit a breach of contract against the buyer – and this by definition makes it a tort case. This party committed the property injury by the act of trespass! That is why this is the tort. …
    To prevent some further misunderstanding about “third-party” involvement in copyright (or any other) contract:

    In tort, you can sue for loss of earnings (consequence of broken labor contract) caused by the third party negligent trespass. For example, if I park my truck on your property, blocking your car and preventing you from going to work and earning your money (and you tried everything to show up at work and you were unsuccessful) – I cannot defend myself by claiming I have nothing with your injury, because I am not a party to your labor contract. That is not a “technicality” – it is a tort.

    Sasha is either not honest or perspicacious enough to realize that he is question-begging here. When he says the third party commits a tort because he is trespassing, this is question-begging since it is assuming what is to be proved. Is it a trespass if I go out right now and make a movie called “The New Adventures of Han Solo,” based on a script I write, which is based on the Han Solo character? This is the question. If Sasha just asserts I’m trespassing then it’s dishonest question-begging. If not, then there is no third party copyright to speak of, it dissipates.

    Published: December 30, 2006 4:49 PM

  • David C

    Wild Pegasus,

    “Saying that patents and copyrights are “monopolies” is true but uninteresting. All property rights are monopolies. The question is which ones are justified.”

    The answer to that is easy. Someone must have control or a say when it comes to physical property, because it is exclusive. That makes the monopoly natural and justified. The other ones, are simply rationalizations of people coercing people.

    “For all the anti-IP talk here, I’ve never seen a good reason to change my view that using what I’ve created without my permission is anything but theft, whether ethereal or physical.”

    I’m glad you mentioned that. Those who wish to impose IP are the ones who want to put massive restrictions and controls on what people can copy even though there is no natural justification inherent in the nature of the creation. The onus to make a compelling argument is on those who wish to impose it.

     

     

     

     

    Published: December 30, 2006 9:33 PM

  • David C

    Steve said,

    “Sasha is either not honest or perspicacious enough to realize that he is question-begging here. When he says the third party commits a tort because he is trespassing, this is question-begging since it is assuming what is to be proved. ….”

     

    His argument is even more flawed that that. Even if I bust into his house, and take his private manuscript at gun point, and post it all over the Internet. Well fine – he would then have the leeway to sue me and lock me in the slammer. As for all the other people who downloaded, printed, and continue to sell copies of that manuscript. Well, tough shit, they have done no crime and have no liability. To do so, he would need to presume that people don’t have an inherent right copy and disseminate and profit from information that comes their way freely.

    This is like arguing against free speech by presuming that people don’t have a right to free speech to begin with. Like if a reporter got a story at gunpoint, there may be leeway to prosecute the reporter. But once the story is out, there exists no right to control peoples free speech to keep it under wraps no matter how unethical the reporters actions were. His inability to differentiate between his right not to have his privacy and contracts violated, and the right of the public to use information that comes their way freely is clearly a boundaries problem typical in socialists. For example, they not only presume on faith that their utopia is perfect, but then presume the right to kill anybody who doesn’t approve of it as well.

     

     

     

    Published: December 30, 2006 10:07 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Stephan,

    Thanks for repeating my wonderful posting.

    No sir, I did not say that third party committed a tort “because he is trespassing.” I said that in my scenario, the third party commits a tort while trespassing. You know – stealing my buyer’s book and than causing him liabilities by creating unauthorized copies (for which I hold my buyer liable, based on a contract). That’s a typical tort issue and I did not involve this third party into my contract.

    Anyway – I’ll go back to your interesting example. In a perfectly free market, Del Rey, the writer of The Han Solo Adventures, will have to prove that he had an agreement with you (like copyright disclosure on his book) that restricted your use of his characters. If he did not have such agreement, the courts would have to decide if the contractual copyright covered the name of the character. I think they would rule that you didn’t create this character on your own – and that you violated copyright with the use of sentence “The Adventures of Han Solo.” You might be successful at your defense, thought. You’re the lawyer.

    Regards.

    —–

    David C,

    When I forbid people from passing through my property is that coercion? When I forbid someone from using my property in a certain way – how is that coercion? Copyright is exactly that – contractual negative obligation of someone who wants to use my property. That is a perfect exercise of private property rights.

    Published: December 30, 2006 10:07 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    David C,

    You jump to conclusions again. Stephan is a lawyer who is not very fon of me. There’s no chance in the world that he’s missing the fact that my argument is “more flawed than that” what you pointed out.

    If you break into my house and take my book away – you will not be responsible only for the immediate property damage (like $10). You will also be responsible for any other property injury caused by your action. If you post that book all over the Internet and that ends up costing me $10 million (based on my copyright contract with the author) – guess what – I will hold you responsible for that injury.

    Again, go back to my parking example. Even if you don’t make any property damage, but you end up costing me some lost wages – you will be responsible for tort. I hope you now understand that tort cases for loss of earnings do not imply that this “third party” is forcefully included in labor contract. Despite your haughtiness, I believe you understand these fundamental issues and that we’re making some progress here.

    Regards.

    Published: December 30, 2006 10:16 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Sashinator,

    Thanks for repeating my wonderful posting.

    the only sense it was wonderful was in “wonderfully illustratrative of a confused, scientistic, amateur mindset”.

    No sir, I did not say that third party committed a tort “because he is trespassing.” I said that in my scenario, the third party commits a tort while trespassing. You know – stealing my buyer’s book and than causing him liabilities

    See, “causing liabilities” is your question-begging. Get it?

    by creating unauthorized copies (for which I hold my buyer liable, based on a contract). That’s a typical tort issue and I did not involve this third party into my contract.

    by “typical tort issue” are you saying that the idea of “tortious interference w/ contract” is consistent with libertarianism? Let’s see the theory. And let’s see your demonstration that this dubious doctrine would cover *every* third party.

    Anyway – I’ll go back to your interesting example. In a perfectly free market, Del Rey, the writer of The Han Solo Adventures, will have to prove that he had an agreement with you (like copyright disclosure on his book) that restricted your use of his characters. If he did not have such agreement, the courts would have to decide if the contractual copyright covered the name of the character.

    well, how convenient–just ask whether contractual copyright covers it? ! Wow, what miraculous question begging!

    I think they would rule that you didn’t create this character on your own – and that you violated copyright with the use of sentence “The Adventures of Han Solo.”

    What is amazing here is your stupidity or dishonesty in not realizing that you are begging the question here, by assuming the validity of copyright, while ostensible denying it elsewhere.

     

     

     

     

    Published: December 30, 2006 10:24 PM

  • David C

    Sasha said,

    “If you break into my house and take my book away – you will not be responsible only for the immediate property damage (like $10). You will also be responsible for any other property injury caused by your action. If you post that book all over the Internet and that ends up costing me $10 million (based on my copyright contract with the author) – guess what – I will hold you responsible for that injury.”

    Well Sasha, that’s a lot more compelling, but also explains why your philosophy never works out in the real world. Because, some homeless druggie will buy your book at the book store, sign the contract, post it all over the Internet, for his $20 fix. Fine – he now caused you 20 million in damages. Go sue him – if you can find him, if he didn’t sell it thru an anonymizer.

     

     

    Published: December 30, 2006 10:26 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Stephan,

    So you actually managed to write all that and still said nothing. Keep those insults to yourself, please. Look at the mirror.

    If your trespass causes someone a $10 million dollar liability (injury) you claim that this is not a tort? Do you think that suing someone for loss of earnings is “bounding” this third party to a labor contract? Are you joking now…? Maybe that’s your lawyer humor I don’t get.

    —-

    David C,

    A druggie can kill someone for a $20 fix. It does not mean that we have to legalize homicide. The same goes for contract violations.

    Published: December 30, 2006 11:27 PM

  • David C

    Sasha said,

    “A druggie can kill someone for a $20 fix. It does not mean that we have to legalize homicide. The same goes for contract violations.”

    Well then contract law is already well defined and perfectly capable of serving that purpose now. So do you advocate setting the term of copyright to zero today and letting things ride from here on out?

     

    Published: December 30, 2006 11:44 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    David C,

    Just like state is not necessary to find and punish murderers – it could be bypassed in contracts violations. I advocate the abolishment of current state (because we’re moving toward socialism and we’re maybe too far away on our road to serfdom) and letting things ride from there on out, hoping we’ll end up in Hoppe’s libertarian monarchy.

    Published: December 30, 2006 11:59 PM

  • greg

    SR> Patented and copyrighted products are means of production…

    There is not a single item produced that does not have ideas behind it, whether those ideas are patented or copyrighted, or not. That’s why the whole precept of copyrights and patents applying to third parties is incoherent nonsense.

    NSK> See, “causing liabilities” is your question-begging. Get it?

    Fat chance.

    Published: December 31, 2006 12:18 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    (Hopefully drunk) Greg,

    No one here claimed that “a single item produced that does not have ideas behind it” – so I don’t know what you hallucinate about.

    Copyright is about the owner’s property rights to allow certain uses of his product, while restricting others. I never claimed that this contract applies to some third party, although Stephan would want me to say something like that (than he would finally have a counter-argument, instead of his childish attempts to insult me). If third party causes a tort to my buyer – that is not bounding him to any contract. Look at the common law “loss of earnings” example – is it “libertarian” to let someone cause it without any consequences.

    Sober-up.

    Published: December 31, 2006 12:25 AM

  • greg

    SR> No one here claimed that “a single item produced that does not have ideas behind it”

    Gosh gee golly. No one here claimed that you claimed so. The point was that you have a propensity for making meaningless statements. And you wonder why few take you seriously enough to engage at anything beyond the trivial level.

    Published: December 31, 2006 12:47 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Gosh gee golly!

    If no one here claimed that “a single item produced that does not have ideas behind it” – why are “replying” to such ridiculous claim????

    You’re basically telling us that you are so challenged that you have to make-up some fake arguments that nobody here even mentioned – just so you can “refute” them. That’s why I said: I hope you’re drunk and not permanently like that.

    Well, at least you’re aware that you have capabilities of providing counter-argument to something I really said. Speaking of “trivial level…”

    : )

    Published: December 31, 2006 1:40 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Gosh gee golly!

    If no one here claimed that “a single item produced that does not have ideas behind it” – why are you “replying” to such ridiculous claim (while responding to my completely different statement)????

    You’re basically telling us that you are so challenged that you have to make-up some fake arguments that nobody here even mentioned – just so you can “refute” them. That’s why I said: I hope you’re drunk and not permanently like that.

    Well, at least you’re aware that you have no capabilities of providing counter-argument to something I really said. Speaking of “trivial level…”

    : )

    Published: December 31, 2006 2:09 AM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Sasha:

    If your trespass causes someone a $10 million dollar liability (injury) you claim that this is not a tort? Do you think that suing someone for loss of earnings is “bounding” this third party to a labor contract? … I never claimed that this contract applies to some third party, although Stephan would want me to say something like that (than he would finally have a counter-argument, instead of his childish attempts to insult me). If third party causes a tort to my buyer – that is not bounding him to any contract.

    Sasha you keep assuming it’s a trespass when a third party uses an idea. You seem to think that if two parties enter into a contract whereby one of them is liable to the other in the event that some third party get the idea, then the third party is causing harm in an actionable sense. This is bad reasoning, and it may result from an amateur understanding of law, tort, and libertarian rights theory.

    Suppose I agree with Dave that I’ll pay him a million bucks if Sasha goes jogging tomorrow. Now, when you do go jogging, you “cause” me to have contractual liability to Dave. But you are not commmitting a tort. I am just stupid for having agreed to such a contract.

    Likewise, as a buyer of a book, I would never agree to unlimited liability in the event I lose the book or fail to have every guest in my house sign an NDA before entering. And even if I did, third parties who gain access to information from the licensed book copy i have, are not committing a tort at all.

    What you do not understand is that contract binds only the parties. This is why it is referred to sometimes as the law of the contract or the law of the parties–it’s like a private set of law among the participants (see, e.g., for further discussion, p. 47 of my book International Investment, Political Risk, and Dispute Resolution). Your clumsy attempt to get around this by saying outsiders are not parties to the contract but merely trespassers liable in tort is disingenuous; the label does not really matter. The point is that the set of contractual rules internal to the parties to the agreement do not bind or affect outsiders, no matter what you call it.

     

    Published: December 31, 2006 9:20 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    STEPHAN SAYS: “Sasha you keep assuming it’s a trespass when a third party uses an idea”

    ======

    That’s not true Mr. Kinsella. You are also imputing some ridiculous statements that no one here ever claimed. But if that’s the only way you argue with me, I’ll take it as a compliment.

    I never assumed “it’s a trespass when a third party uses an idea.”

    I said: If a third party steals my book from the buyer and his trespass causes him some huge financial injury – that’s a tort! There can be no dispute about it. When third party takes my book without any authorization – that’s a trespass! In our book theft example, this “third party” commits a clear trespass, and since injury caused by his actions is far greater than the price of that book – he will get sued for a total injury (liability of poor buyer).

    If some third party never steals my book from the buyer, but his causes violations of copyright, the buyer is solely responsible for the violation of contract and all the damages. I will assume that the third party acted on buyer’s behalf – or that the buyer was negligent.

    ON THE OTHER HAND…

    In your irrelevant example, we have a gambling contract in which I never committed any trespass. Therefore, you cannot argue that my nonexistent trespass caused you any liability – but your own stupidity. I recently lost some money on Orlando Magic, but that does not mean that I can sue Washington Wizards who beat them by a point. But Wizards cannot be compared to someone whose clear and undisputable theft causes my financial injury. And this does not “bound” any third party to any contract- just like suing someone for “loss of earnings” is not bounding anyone to a labor contract (it’s all tort).

    Published: December 31, 2006 12:11 PM

  • greg

    SR> If no one here claimed that “a single item produced that does not have ideas behind it” – why are [you] “replying” to such ridiculous claim????

    Your comment did not distinguish “right-based ideas” from “non-right based ideas” as ideas are related to means of production. That made it a meaningless statement for the purpose of your argument. Until you can establish the rudiment — that a process is “owned” (an idea is owned) then there is no way of even saying there are two distinct methods of process.

    SR> You’re basically telling us that you are so challenged that you have to make-up some fake arguments that nobody here even mentioned – just so you can “refute” them.

    You sure are wordy. Why not say “strawman?” There is no “argument” against meaningless statements.

    Published: January 1, 2007 7:22 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Oh, we have a pseudo-philosopher here!

    How nice.

    Anyway, why would I want to distinguish >>”right-based ideas” from “non-right based ideas” as ideas are related to means of production.

    Published: January 1, 2007 8:48 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    Oh, we have a pseudo-philosopher here!

    How nice.

    Anyway, why would I want to distinguish >>”right-based ideas” from “non-right based ideas” as ideas are related to means of production.

    Published: January 1, 2007 8:50 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    There is no reason for me to argue that a process is “owned,” or that idea (per se) is owned. I explained that at the beginning of my discussion with Stephan Kinsella.

    I argued that when someone’s product (physical creation) is owned:
    a) the owner has the right to sell only the limited use of that product, which would restrict any unauthorized replication of it
    b) if someone steals this person’s creation – trespassers will have to pay for their unauthorized use and tort they cause (such as loss of earnings in the amount of unauthorized copies that otherwise/legally would have been purchased from the author, etc.)

    You see that there is an argument against your meaningless statements. It’s a matter of simple demonstration which shows that you lied about my position – and that you still have to make-up some fake arguments that nobody here even mentioned – just so you can “refute” them.

    Regards.

    Published: January 1, 2007 8:51 PM

  • scineram

    “restrict any unauthorized replication of it”

    Only by the buyer. If a third party gets to know about it, he can produce a similar product.

    Published: January 2, 2007 6:55 AM

  • Sasha Radeta

    “Only by the buyer. If a third party gets to know about it, he can produce a similar product.”

    ——-

    I responded to this many times before.

    Something that can be produced “similarly,” when someone only “gets to know about it” (without actually handling the product) – is not a reproduction and cannot be called copyright violation. That is all part of independent discovery and not unauthorized use of someone’s product.

    On the other hand – if third party does, beyond reasonable doubt, reproduce my distinctive product (such as my book) I will then hold my buyer accountable according to our contract that prevents “any unauthorized use.” Contracts don’t ever excuse you for allowing some third party to cause your violation of terms; otherwise, there would be no private property rights (third parties would have a license to trespass). You cannot accept a limited use of my product – and than offer your son (third party) the unlimited use of it.

    If the third party obtained my product by theft from the buyer – it’s a tort issue (someone’s unauthorized use of my product caused financial injury) – not a breach of contract.

    Published: January 2, 2007 11:50 AM

  • Peter

    Again, Sasha, which buyer? If you publish a book that is bought by 40 million people, and then someone starts producing unauthorized copies, who are you going to sue? Can you answer that?

    Published: January 3, 2007 8:16 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    No, I can’t. You really got me there.

    : )

    Of course not, I’m just kidding.

    What kind of silly question is that?

    If I have a supermarket chain that is annually visited by millions of people, and then someone starts shoplifting, who am I going to sue?
    Who is sued now, for any tort, in this country?

    You think that with 40 million copies sold I will not have an incentive and resources to invest into protection of my vast property? Think again. If copyright was completely privatized, you would have much more efficient and competitive market in firms that would provide better investigations and enforcement.

    Nothing that humans do is perfect – and our current government’s copyright business is just like any other government’s business. Nevertheless, anarcho-communism that anti-IP clowns advocate (freedom to commit tort and breaches of contracts based on personal “needs”) is not an option.

    Published: January 3, 2007 10:22 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    Peter: Sasha is one of the most dense or dishonest opponents I’ve encountered. Or unjustifiably full of himself for some reason. But your question is a good one. Sasha has no idea whatsoever about the 40 million buyers, and has no idea whatsoever he is talking about. He evidently has no clue about the nature of real patent and copyright law, and why it simply cannot be duplicated by some “contractual-copyright” notion.

    Sasha says:

    If I have a supermarket chain that is annually visited by millions of people, and then someone starts shoplifting, who am I going to sue?
    Who is sued now, for any tort, in this country?

    Sasha is utterly clueless. S/he does not realize the distinction between scarce and non-scarce things. Sasha does not or cannot see that s/he is begging the question.

     

    Published: January 3, 2007 10:50 PM

  • Sasha Radeta

    WOW Dr. Kinsella!

    Another posting entirely dedicated to my persona (as you see it), with some disturbing fantasies about my sex that say more about you that anyone cared to know – but you haven’t said a single thing that would contradict me.

    You also have no clue about 40 million sold items in terms of revenue and power (if market for law enforcement was privatized). Plus, there is no reason why would privatized copyright be less efficient than government’s monopoly.

    Plus, before Dr. Kinsella can talk about “the distinction between scarce and non-scarce things,” he should first start considering the economic definition of scarcity, where it comes from and how it is applied. http://blog.mises.org/archives/006035.asp#comments

    Anyway, everyone here knows that copyright pertains to terms of use of real, ownable goods and not something “non-scarce” as you maliciously state.

    Published: January 3, 2007 11:56 PM

  • Guild wars gold

    Guild Wars
    Guild Wars gold
    cheap Guild Wars gold
    buy Guild Wars gold
    Guild Wars money
    GW gold

    Published: September 26, 2007 4:49 PM

  • vponsale

    wedding dresses wedding gowns bridal gowns lace front wigs wedding invitations bridal shower invitations baby shower invitations custom wedding invitation diablo 2 cd key

    Published: September 2, 2008 12:53 AM

  • harnuud

    Мэдээлэл технологийн салбарт үйл ажиллагаа явуулагч Япон Монгол Хамтарсан Компани.
    日本・モンゴル合弁会社Mugen Link Co.,Ltd.。
    Web and software development Japan Mongolian Joint Venture Company).
    Бүх төрлийн веб програмуудыг хийж гүйцэтгэнэ.
    Бүх төрлийн SEO-гийн дотоод шийдэлтэй вэб програмуудыг хийж гүйцэтгэнэ.
    モンゴルWEBを格安料金で制作します。

    Published: May 20, 2009 2:53 AM

 

Share
{ 8 comments }

Patent Attorney Admission

Update: See Are anti-IP patent attorneys hypocrites?, collecting various posts about this topic.

***

From the Mises blog. Archived comments below.

Patent Attorney Admission

12/22/2006

I pointed out in There’s No Such Thing as a Free Patent that “The conventional defense of the patent system is that it is essential in order to stimulate creativity.” And here, on the widely-read Patently-O Patent Law blog, we have patent attorney Dennis Crouch casually admitting:

Patents are intended to lure potential inventors into the business of innovation. The truth is, however, that very little is known about how patents really drive innovation.

Sigh. See also:

***

Archived comments (259; 2):

{ 259 comments… read them below or add one }

Scott D January 4, 2007 at 12:13 pm

Nice summation, Cosmin. You have my endorsement.

REPLY

Fred Mann January 4, 2007 at 4:44 pm

Sorry about the slight delay, Sasha.
Anyway, you write:

“I told you, opening a book under those circumstances is not a tort and that’s what matters. ”

If you reread my post, you will see I never even mentioned tort.
I am just trying to establish if you think opening a book is GROUNDS for a tort. Remember a tort has two components — damage AND wrongdoing — i.e violation of some statute, law, duty, responsiblity, etc..
Anyway, it appears that the answer is “yes”.
Now on to idea ownership …
Ideas are NEVER ownable. Period. Ideas only exist in the mind. We can attempt to convey the ideas through spoken words/written symbols or create physical objects which resemble the things in our mind’s eye, but these physical things are not the ideas themselves. They are not ideas which have been “turned into physical objects”, as you say. Any sentence which begins “Ideas can be owned when …” (or some variation) is incorrect.
Your confusion here may be leading you to believe that book ownership means something more than the ownership of paper and ink. But it does not. But if you believe it does, then you might be justified in saying that I was guilty of some wrongdoing by opening and/or reading the book. But I am not.
To illustrate, imagine that the book was just comprised of bound pieces of blank paper (for writing or whatever). I could not conceivably be accused of violating any duty/law/civic responsibility/etc. by opening the book left on MY property (an “unauthorized use” of my property, no less — ha ha.). But, according to you, as soon as we put some writing on these pages, things change. We now have, as a society, a duty to not open a lost or mislaid book. But why? How can you justify this without referring to some general IP standard which applies to the society as a whole?
Since you are trying to create some special new duty/law/standard as grounds for a tort, you would need to provide justification for that. Remember, MY standard — return the item to the owner in the condition it was when it was found — works for EVERYTHING … except your scheme. So to put it another way, you would have to show why my standard is not reasonable/consistent with private property rights.

REPLY

Sasha Radeta January 4, 2007 at 5:34 pm

Cosmin had a change of heart. Cool with me, but bear in mind the following:

1. “Sale” does not have to imply change of ownership title over goods. You forget that services are also sold – and they are not alienable. The copyright contract can state that the owner sells his services, by allowing you to use your book in limited fashion.
2. YOU GOT IT! Copyright ABSOLUTELY has no place in a transaction where ownership is transferred (sale). That’s what I was telling you all along. These kind of (expensive) transactions are usually reserved for publishers, not regular users.
3. YOU GOT IT FINALLY! Copyright is perfectly valid in any rental transaction (sale : ).
4. Copyright proponents are free to advertise their services – and if their contract explains exactly what’s been advertised, there is no fraud.
5. Market is free to abandon copyright right now, but, in most cases, it chooses not to do it. I explained the reasons already.

—-

Fred,

I insist on talking about tort – because that’s all it matters when it comes to lawsuits that unauthorized copies (fruit of the trespass). Opening the book to find an owner, or entering someone’s property to save life… that’s not what we talk about here.

I don’t care about metaphysics of “idea ownership.” It is irrelevant. Idea is content of cognition that can be stored on something that we own (either our brain or our hardware). When written down, this content (idea) becomes something ownable.

ANYWAY,

I’m not introducing any new standards of tort. You’re just not good with that concept. Whether some book is blank or full – mislaid property is someone else’s and unauthorized use is an unauthorized use. Of course that things change when book has some content – the “finder” can use his unauthorized use to produce copies and cause tort to the rightful owner (in loss of earnings). That’s how it is. Give it up.

REPLY

Sione Vatu January 5, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Sasha

You have now proved that you are unable to answer direct questions put to you (for example, you can’t explain what you mean by “legally owned”). That’s a shame as it means that your ideas and system of thought are baseless- floating abstractions. A system built on nothing (such as yours) is all very well but it can’t be considered valid in dealing with reality. It may seem to you a nice proposition or suposition but in the end it isn’t anything more than that and can’t be taken as truth (that is, as correct), hence it is invalid, worthless. In this regard it is you, Sasha the slav, who share aspects of thinking with communist intellectuals.

What you have is a tower of ideas based on your own assertion. It all looks very twee and nooice. And in isolation or as an abstract theory it may seem to be very tidy and clever but attempts to practice such nonsense inevitably and consistently result in catastophe, ruin and disaster. Tragic. Bad in practice, bad in theory. Your nonsense would be terrible when reduced to practice. What a mess. As bad as the present patent system, maybe worse.

You do have to provide the fundational derivations for YOUR ideas and you do have to answer directly the questions put to you. That’s because it is you who assert the positive. In the absence of your ability to answer, your ideas can’t be shown to be valid. You are the one making the claims and assertions remember.

Now go back, re-read the questions and make an honest attempt to answer. How hard can it be?

Sione

PS you could always concede that you can’t do the derivation. In that case go as far as you can and show where the problem lies. That way that problem could be considered.

REPLY

greg January 5, 2007 at 5:54 pm

SR> I am not treating them like criminals… You obviously don’t even know what tort is.

Actually, you finally said something right. You aren’t treating them like criminals, you are treating them like your victims. The person intentionally doing harm is you.

SR> …ideas can be turned into physical object or a part of it. Don’t busy yourself with “non-physical ideas,…”

Ideas are always non-physical, that is exactly the characteristic that makes them infinitely replicable. Ideas are non-scarce in the manner that they don’t have the rivalry problem. That’s why people who have ideas (which they believe are unique) want the state to impose scarcity upon actual physical goods via copyright/patent. The very act of people seeking to have the state impose copyrights and patents upon actual physical goods should tell even the most clouded intelligence that ideas are not rivalrous scarce and thus they are not property. The “infinitely replicable” characteristic is exactly why ideas are nothing like property. The fact that people act on an idea and thus manifest an idea in a physical object is irrelevent to the nature of ideas themselves.

SR> And sorry about lapses like than=then… I write too fast.

That is the least of your problems.

FM> Any sentence which begins “Ideas can be owned when …” (or some variation) is incorrect.

Exactly. It immediately self-contradicts; Not that such a rudimentary logical problem will pose any barrier to the stubborn.

SR> When written down, this content (idea) becomes something ownable.

You need to establish ideas as property. It is rudimentary to your task. You have not done so. And according to you, why not make all speech copyrightable? After all, speech is physical: compressions and rarefactions of the air. Just because spoken speech doesn’t have the same lifetime as a piece of paper, so what (speech is undeniably physical)? Where does the arbitrary lifetime rule kick in?

Your idea about ideas is ludicrous. But I’ll grant you “ownership” of it. I sure want nothing to do with it.

REPLY

Sasha Radeta January 9, 2007 at 12:22 am

Sione,

Don’t be so retarded. Everyone knows that “legally owned” means. It’s a shame you don’t – so you have to blab about nothing…. I mean – what did you try to say with all that gibberish about ideas? You say: “attempts to practice such nonsense inevitably and consistently result in catastophe, ruin and disaster.”

You’re probably high on drugs, or just ill.

—–

Greg,

Learn difference between a crime and a tort. If you cause a car-accident, it is not a crime, but you will still have to pay for the results of your actions.

As far as ideas go, they can be witten down or turn into physical and ownable. Of course that you can own a piece of paper or some othe hardware that is scarce when it contains some valuable idea (whose demand exceeds supply if price was set to zero). On the other hand, air is not ownable (it’s not scarce). Your economic ignorance prevents you from understanding why common speech is not copyrightable.

REPLY

Sasha Radeta January 9, 2007 at 12:36 am

When I say that something is “owned” – I refer to the definition of ownership that was provided by Ludwig von Mises (the standard definition). From that point – we can conclude that the owner has the right to allow and restrict certain uses of his property. That’s where the copyright (the restriction of reproduction and other commercial uses) comes from. And you can’t do anything about it Sione, except talk some gibberish abour “premise, fundational derivations, isolation or as an abstract theory”

: )

REPLY

Sasha Radeta January 9, 2007 at 12:37 am

When I say that something is “owned” – I refer to the definition of ownership that was provided by Ludwig von Mises (the standard definition). From that point – we can conclude that the owner has the right to allow and restrict certain uses of his property. That’s where the copyright (the restriction of reproduction and other commercial uses) comes from. And you can’t do anything about it Sione, except talk some gibberish about “premise, fundational derivations, isolation or as an abstract theory”

: )

REPLY

Sione Vatu January 9, 2007 at 8:48 pm

Sasha

Drugs or illness! What a choice. You are getting to be quite the hysteric. You must be speaking from personal experience! Still, what you have provided is sufficient to come to some conclusions about your approach to the argument.

You write: “When I say that something is “owned” – I refer to the definition of ownership that was provided by Ludwig von Mises (the standard definition).”

& yet you wrote: “Property is that which is legally owned by an individual or entity.”

Then you proceeded to assert your copyright on the basis of “legal ownership.” [your post of December 28]

You also claimed: “Everyone knows that (sic) “legally owned” means.”

Well, von Mises certainly did.

Prof Mises warns (in Human Action) not to confuse the source of or reason for ownership of property with a legal definition. That is, he made a clear distinction between the concept “legally owned” (ownership determined and subject to some government’s legislation) and real or actual ownership of property. He teaches that the law is not the source of property or its ownership. He goes further and demonstrates that the notion of “legal ownership” is used for socialist ends. It is a socialist construct designed to collectivise private property. [Sasha, you dirty pinko commie you!]

Were you aware of Mises position it is likely you would not have relied on the concept of “legal ownership” in deriving your copyright. You certainly wouldn’t have written about “legal ownership” in the way you did (hence resulting in my pulling you up and asking you questions about it). Therefore it is reasonable to suspect you do not know how Mises treated the definition and derivation of property or how he established ownership thereof. Further, you appear to be using socialist premise and argument to establish your copyright idea. Grave errors, indeed to be avoided.

It is vitally important to understand the first principle derivations of ideas such as copyright. You should by now have started to realise why. In this case it is likely you have not studied the source of the idea you promoted- merely accepted something and elaborated on it, building a tower of rationalisations founded on…. unexamined premise. In other words, your copyright argument was invalid at source (and you never checked).

I sense your frustration at being asked to go back to step one and work on derivation and validation. How tiresome it all must seem, at least until the terrible realisation dawns that it just may be that you can’t successfully undertake the task. Your intellectual honesty and personal integrity is measured on what you do as the result of that realisation.

To evaluate your idea and its legitimacy it is important to examine all those details that you were so determined to evade addressing. It is important to strip away the compartmentalisation, leave the isolated concretes aside for the moment and work directly with the core principles & premise supporting or refuting the proposal (the idea or system you are interested in). Deal with the fundamentals, they are extremely important.

And so where does that leave matters now? Well, for a start it is to be recommended you read some of von Mises’ work and think about it really, really carefully. Secondly, the take home message is that you have not been able to demonstrate a watertight chain of logic from reality to your copyright assertion. You can’t derive it properly as the chain is broken at source (you accepted faulty premise). I suspect there are several other failures of logic inherent in the promotion of your copyright idea but we have not yet examined them in any detail as yet. For example, it is necessary to address and identify what attributes must be exhibited for an entity to be properly regarded as property. And so on.

Lastly. There is that old saying, “Bad in practice. Bad in theory.” You should consider the practical implications and applications of your theory. A number of serious problems present themselves to undermine it.

Sione

***

Comments

Stephan, you are way to kind to patents, I want to add some things:

    1. If a researcher looses a monopoly on one patent, but in turn gains access to 10 million other patents – then that is a net gain for invention and for business, not a net loss. The facts bear that out. For example, how most the new drug innovation was happening in India where they don’t have patents on drugs, or the less proprietary x86 architecture that took the market by storm in spite of it’s design flaws.
    2. Patents do not change the demand for invention and R&D;, they only distort the market and cause it to center around invention controls instead of invention related services. Well, large companies, lawyers, and government are good at controlling things. Inventors are good at inventing things, so patents do really not help inventors or small lean innovators.

 

 

    1. To control inventions requires physical coercion and violence, and patents are very violent. Like how they arguably held back safety devices in cars for 20 years while millions died needlessly, and like how attempts of patent enforcement in Africa have likely led to over a million unneeded AIDS related deaths. Also, DDT was banned within months of its patent running out, freon too, to make room for bigger markets. But at least the freon one can’t be attributed to 50 million malaria deaths.

 

 

    1. In the future, technology is likely to bring production back into the home thru 3d printers and nanotechnology. IMHO, patents will require more violence and more government micro-regulation than ever in order to be secured.

 

 

    1. A side effect of the patent system is that researchers who share research and innovation between companies are punished. It creates a strong disincentive against collaboration. It forces innovators to spend orders of magnitude more on R&D; and causes them and their research to be micromanaged. So patents drive up the cost of R&D; by orders of magnitude, drive down quality, and then now they say “well, we need patent monopolies to recover all these costs”.

 

 

    1. People tend to think that having all these incompatible parts and all these incompatible interfaces on every single car, cell phone, and consumer product – is just a normal part of a free market economy. I speculate that it is not, and that patents encourage these distortions in addition to all the waste and unneeded obsolescence that goes with it.

 

 

    1. People tend to think that having expensive pharmaceuticals with all sorts of strange chemical side effects is just a normal part of a free market economy. In addition they think that the shunning natural cures, herbs, and vitamins is a normal function of modern medicine and science. I speculate that it also is not, but another distortion caused by patents.

 

In sum, patents don’t help inventors, but distort markets to work against them and even punish and isolate them. They are violent, genocidal, coercive, unproductive, inefficient, and drive down profit, quality, and compatibility across markets everywhere. The future for patents does not look promising, but rather to be one of millions of US elderly suffering from high costs and strange chemichal side effects on their medication, and one of a military police state required to enforce them as things like 3d printing and nanotechnology force the commoditization of invention.

 

Posted by: David C at December 22, 2006 1:03 PM

Tangentially, it is hysterical that Crouch draws the conclusion that fewer female than male patent filers equates to “barriers” preventing females from filing patents.

Pellinore

Posted by: Pellinore at December 22, 2006 2:37 PM

After sitting through many of these IP related threads, I really need to ask two questions.

1. What is the best book in favor of IP, written from a Praxeological viewpoint?

2. What is the best book opposed to IP, written from a Praxeological viewpoint?

I am still reading “Human Action”, so may be a little while before I get to them, but I think I need to approach this subject on a more organized basis, rather than the back and forth of blog posts.

Posted by: Mark Brabson at December 22, 2006 6:01 PM

I don’t know, why do we have to refer back to Mises for an answer, like it was found in some austrian-libertarian ministry live on tv? You must have at least some thoughts on it having read “many” of these IP threads. It should be organized the way it should not be organized. It can’t be in between “either and or”. There’s no third way in between possibility. So are you split down the middle of in favor of IP and opposed to IP? Any aspects treat you as bs? Why? Any other aspects treat you as true? Why? It’s the only way to really know. #1, It *must* be true for all of us. #2, the simpler the reason, the easier to explain to those who don’t yet know. Can’t we all just figure it out? It’s true or false. You’re gonna leave it blank without taking a guess? The best book opposed is still the best book opposed. The best book in favor is still the best book in favor. Which is better? 😛

Posted by: rtr at December 23, 2006 12:23 AM

A valid critique of patents came from Rothbard. Everything else I see here is too weak.

Rothbard stated in Man, Economy, and State:

“In the purely free market, the inventor could mark his machine copyright, and then anyone who buys the machine buys it on the condition that he will not reproduce and sell such a machine for profit. Any violation of this contract would consti¬tute implicit theft and be prosecuted accordingly on the free market.

The patent is incompatible with the free market precisely to the extent that it goes beyond the copyright. The man who has not bought a machine and who arrives at the same invention independently, will, on the free market, be perfectly able to use and sell his invention. Patents prevent a man from using his in­vention even though all the property is his and he has not stolen the invention, either explicitly or implicitly, from the first in­ventor. Patents, therefore, are grants of exclusive monopoly priv­ilege by the State and are invasive of property rights on the market.

The crucial distinction between patents and copyrights, then, is not that one is mechanical and the other literary. The fact that they have been applied that way is an historical accident and does not reveal the critical difference between them. The crucial difference is that copyright is a logical attribute of property right on the free market, while patent is a monopoly invasion of that right.”

—–

If we assumed that patents were totally modeled after copyrights than all of the aforementioned objections would be baseless.

I do not claim that patents are compatible with the free-market economy, but I do claim that much of their critique is baseless and come from more “exotic” places than Mises Institute: http://www.boingboing.net/2004/09/14/copyright_reformers_.html

David C says:

1. ” If a researcher looses a monopoly on one patent, but in turn gains access to 10 million other patents – then that is a net gain for invention and for business, not a net los. ”

Could we say that if a person looses his private property rights on one farm, but in turn gains access to one hundred other farms in a commune – that this is a net gain for his business? Is it a “net gain”, when we consider that he is not the only person who gets free access to these patents and farms – and that there are now millions of free riders who just want to pick up someone’s research, just like a free rider on a communist collective farm who waits for someone else to feed him?

2. ” Patents do not change the demand for invention and R&D;, they only distort the market and cause it to center around invention controls instead of invention related services. ”

Could we say that private property rights distort the society and cause it center around property controls, instead of more productive use of resources? Would there be any point to focusing on “invention related services” if one firm has to spend money on both R&D; and services, while other firms want to pick up their research for free and than focus all their resources on excelling in services.

3. ” To control inventions requires physical coercion and violence, and patents are very violent. Like how they arguably held back safety devices in cars for 20 years while millions died needlessly, and like how attempts of patent enforcement in Africa have likely led to over a million unneeded AIDS related deaths. ”

Couldn’t we also say that the control of private property requires force and violence? Like how capitalists arguably held back the developments of alternative fuels that could have saved our environment from global warming (LOL!)… or how private property rights led to millions of deaths from poverty in Africa, while western world shielded its wealth with force and violence.

———

Once you depart from Rothbard’s free-market critique of patents and instead start focusing on free market response to patents (force, buying and selling patents, etc.) you easily enter the communist realm, advocating the alleged benefits of sharing resources free of charge and free of profit motivation. That’s a slippery slope.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 23, 2006 12:27 AM

Sasha: please stop with the worship of half-understood Rothbard quotes. You keep harping on about how you’re “consistent with Rothbard”, but it’s only true in the sense that you’re parroting Rothbard – “ipse dixit” consistency only. [In fact, I have little doubt that if Rothbard were alive today, and posting in these threads, he’d be telling you that he was wrong when he wrote what you quote above. Believe it or not, he was wrong on occasion. He correct some of Mises’ errors, and others – like Kinsella – have corrected some of Rothbard’s. Not to knock Rothbard at all, but what he thought is irrelevant anyway: you have to judge the correctness of ideas on their own merits, not on the basis of Rothbard’s opinion about them (and especially not on an opinion 45 years out of date!)]

Could we say that if a person looses his private property rights on one farm, but in turn gains access to one hundred other farms in a commune – that this is a net gain for his business?

No, but only because farms are rivalrous: since others also have the use of the farms, their uses with conflict with his. Unlike the case with “patents”.

Posted by: Peter at December 23, 2006 1:17 AM

Sasha Said,

“Could we say that if a person looses his private property rights on one farm, but in turn gains access to one hundred other farms …. ”

But he doesn’t loose any private property rights if everyone just has their own copy of his farm, does he?

“Could we say that private property rights distort the society and cause it center around property controls, instead of more productive use of resources?”

YES! If the government controls how people used their own *copies* of property, then that is a true distortion of liberty and free markets.

“… or how private property rights led to millions of deaths from poverty in Africa, while western world shielded its wealth with force and violence…”

I’m glad you mentioned that, do you own slaves? Don’t you believe in property rights? Don’t you believe in incentive? Don’t you believe in the great wealth and prosperity of American commerce. They paid for those slaves you commie!! 🙂

Moral: This isn’t rocket science. Physical property and inventions have a totally different nature and should be treated accordingly. Property rights derive from the nature of property, not just fantasy. Just because someone calls something a property right doesn’t mean that it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 23, 2006 1:25 AM

One more thing, fascist or communist societies claim title to all liberties. The question about private individuals having a “right” to control other little pieces of peoples liberty is never even a question.

 

Now we have patents which are the “right” of private individuals to control how other people use invention – so, of course they will be against patents. They are against them because it gives an individual some autonomy outside of total government. We are against them because it gives individuals “rights” that are not theirs.

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 23, 2006 1:53 AM

Peter,

Don’t be ridiculous. What Rothbard said about patents and copyrights can be easily defended from a self-ownership standpoint.

And please, stop those shameless and indecent assumptions about what Rothbard would say if he was alive (and comparing someone like Kinsella with Mises and Rothbard). That’s not really funny, assuming that you wanted to make a joke.

I don’t always agree with Rothbard. I criticized his solution to Coase’s railroad dilemma, as well as his anti-ad-coelum arguments. But Rothbard is absolutely correct on copyrights – and Stephan Kinsella was unable to even create a coherent idea against it.

—-

David C,

If you violate someone’s exclusive (commercial) use of a product, he does loose his property right. BUT THAT WAS NOT MY POINT – and I think you know it.

My point was this:

1. You tried to make a utilitarian argument that even if a person looses exclusive rights to one patent – by gaining freedom of access to millions of other patents he will actually benefit.

By the same token, can we say that by loosing exclusive right to one farm – collectivist farmer still benefits by being able to access hundreds of them? That was a simple question.

2. When I asked: “Could we say that private property rights distort the society and cause it center around property controls, instead of more productive use of resources?”

To my shock, you answered: “YES!”

In other words, you see private property rights as something harmful, just because people spend valuable resources to protect it and control it, instead of putting it into use for betterment of a collective. That was also your argument against patents. However, I do appreciate your honesty – comrade.

3. You mentioned how forceful protection of patents caused millions of AIDS deaths in Africa (and not the virus, self-inflicted poverty, and irresponsible actions of Africans). If that was the “argument” against patents – than same “argument” applies to private property rights. Private property rights allowed western people to forcefully protect their huge wealth, while millions are dying of starvation… I see what you were getting at, you commie.

My point was that “deaths in Africa” cannot be used as an argument here. The fact that some people forcefully protect something that can save some “dying Africans” is not an argument for the abolition of that “forceful protection”. If it was – we would start advocating socialism (removal of forceful protection of western wealth), instead of advocating ways in which Africans can start developing their own means for better life.

—

Your last comment completely missed the target. In a perfectly free market, an individual can control how other people use inventions – if he obtained the property right to those inventions in a free market exchange. The way you can obtain that right is by selling only the personal use of your product – in exchange for the asked price plus damages for breach of contract (in the amount of any unauthorized copies of that product).

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 23, 2006 3:54 AM

Sasha,

  1. My point is that a shared patent is nothing like a collectivist property, why? because me using an idea does not exclude you from using it. Property isn’t about creating exclusions for the sake of exclusions, but about the fact that I can not use your item without controlling how you use it too.
  2. Also, I said “YES” to government controlling copies of property is a market distortion, not YES to property rights are a distortion of markets, and I think you know that too.
  3. As far as Africa goes, I pointed out that patents create consequences that are measurably harmful which supports my theory. They aren’t forcefully removing protection of western wealth unless them making AIDS drugs coerces us not to have them.

“Your last comment completely missed the target. In a perfectly free market, an individual can control how other people use inventions – if he obtained the property right to those inventions in a free market exchange. The way you can obtain that right is by selling only the personal use of your product – in exchange for the asked price plus damages for breach of contract (in the amount of any unauthorized copies of that product).”

How is that any different from saying: In a perfectly free market, an individual can control how other people use slaves – if he obtained the property right to those slaves in a free market exchange. The way you can obtain that right is by selling only the personal use of your slave – in exchange for the asked price plus damages for breach of contract (in the amount of any unauthorized labor of that product).

In fact, there is no patent argument at all that you can make that does not have a prefect analogy to slavery, why? Because you are defining property by how you control people rather than by the nature of the resource.

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 23, 2006 10:51 AM

Earlier I believed that patents and copyrights are needed because otherwise there would not be enough (socially optimum amount) innovative activity since so huge sunk costs are committed if one is to invent stuff.

Now I just dont know since my views at least have changed because of so many problems inherent in government granted monopolies and privileges.

Older generation of welfare economists argued usually that from the point of view of social utility these privileges are needed.

Posted by: adi at December 23, 2006 11:29 AM

David C,

My point is that you criticized patents’ alleged economic harms – using some collectivist “arguments”.

1. If you say that an inventor economically benefits by loosing exclusive rights on one patent while gaining free access to use millions of other inventions… How is that different from claiming that a collectivist farmer is benefiting from free access to all different farms in a commune? This is a question that deals with economic theory – not ethics. My question is following: does free access to commercial use of other people’s inventions really create “net gain”, when we consider that he is not the only person who gets free access to these patents and farms – and that there are now millions of free riders who just want to pick up someone’s research, just like a free rider on a communist collective farm who waits for someone else to feed him?

Copyright protection (and valid patents that use the same principles) aren’t about creating exclusions for the sake of exclusions, but to prevent conflict over a commercial use of someone’s item.

2. Saying that private property rights are a “distortion of markets” is nonsensical. Without private property rights there would be no markets (exchanges of property titles). Plus, the fact that government established the monopoly over copyrights does not mean that markets would not produce contractual protection of commercial use of people’s property – and be much more efficient than government.

3. You cannot say that western patents created AIDS deaths in Africa – just as cannot say that western wealth created the starvation deaths there. The fact that people in the west forcefully protect something that could help those in Africa – is not an argument to just take what westerners are protecting. I hope you understand why such logic is flawed and socialist.

—-

I don’t know why you invoke a slavery argument. Everyone knows that you cannot obtain a slave in a perfectly free market – because slave contracts deny someone else’s self-ownership. Not even a slave can deny his self-ownership, since he always maintains the exclusive control over his own body – regardless of outside aggression.

But in a free market you certainly can obtain someone else’s copies of your invention. You do that by selling the personal use of your product – in exchange for some money and the amount of any unauthorized copies (damages for contractual breach, which you conditionally own).

There is no parallel to slavery here, at all. Copyright contracts are perfectly consistent with all free market contracts, because they are based on voluntary exchanges of physical property’s ownership titles.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 23, 2006 11:58 AM

Sasha asks: “Could we say that if a person looses his private property rights on one farm, but in turn gains access to one hundred other farms in a commune – that this is a net gain for his business? Is it a “net gain”, when we consider that he is not the only person who gets free access to these patents and farms – and that there are now millions of free riders who just want to pick up someone’s research, just like a free rider on a communist collective farm who waits for someone else to feed him?”

This is a poor use of analogy. The patent and the farm are not the same. They are not similar. While an analogy may sometimes be a useful tool with which to illustrate a point it is important that the analogy at least shares a core principle with the topic under examination. It should be contextually relevant. In failing this test an attempted use of analogy can be said to be misleading instead of providing a clarification. Avoid the error. Avoid introducing irrelevancies.

Further the use of the term “free rider” was used without explicit referent to context. It has been employed in an emotive and catch-all fashion. Unhelpful. Again it does not clarify but instead misleads the reader. This is not the way to make a point, let alone an argument.

Moving on. I have been involved in commercialisation and investment for new technology and research for some time now. In my experience it is not really worth the time and effort to patent most innovations. Keeping certain innovations secret, exploiting first mover advantage, judicious use of retail costs and establishment of relationships (agreements/ supplier chains/ franchises/ alliances/ etc.) is faster and far more advantageous, more profitable as well.

The companies I am involved with expect competition. We do not see the point in employing coercion or violence to “guarantee” a “right” to a market or a “right” to customers. Such “rights” do not exist. Competition is understood to be one of the experiences that urge all of us at work to do better. Hence we make good profit. Time wasted on suppressing competition by using govt authorities, regulations, legislation or seeking grant of special privilege is dead time. That is, non-productive. It’s a net loss. This is experience, not theory I am discussing here.

An aside. The idea that an invention can be “copyrighted” seems impractical. How do you determine who the original creator is or was? And so what if he is (or was)? Is it necessary to introduce tests of originality- obviousness and inventive step and novelty? Surely not! Perhaps the whole notion of ideas as property is invalid. The possibility would be worth investigating.

 

Moving on. Sasha asks: “Could we say that private property rights distort the society and cause it center around property controls, instead of more productive use of resources?”

This is a question asked in the absence of proper context. It floats without specific meaning (it fails to clarify, rather, it misleads).

What is a “more productive use of resources”? According to whom? On what basis is the evaluation determined? Who decides?

What is a “distortion”? According to whom? On what basis? Who decides?

 

Sasha asks: “Would there be any point to focusing on “invention related services” if one firm has to spend money on both R&D; and services, while other firms want to pick up their research for free and than focus all their resources on excelling in services.”

Does the writer of this question have any experience in business? I mean the practical day-to-day activity of commercial business, not theory, not speculation (as in throwing out floating abstractions and ideas) and not rumination?

As a practising businessman I seek innovation as a tool to better attract and serve customers, to reduce cost, add capability and profit. Competitors may well wish to reverse-engineer and/or copy what I introduce to the market. They will need to expend resource to do it. That’s certainly not free. While they are busy doing this (and it may be a valid strategy for them to undertake) I am moving ahead with my next improvement or innovation. Resource they expend on copying IS an actual research overhead they must bear. There is no free lunch.

The question is invalid.

 

Sasha asks : “Couldn’t we also say that the control of private property requires force and violence?”

Depends on context. Depends if you are trying to steal the property or not. If you come around here and try to steal from me you should expect to get the right brutal hiding you’d deserve. That’s a result of what would be a demonstrated fact- that you require a hiding to prevent you from stealing my stuff (or for me to rescue it from you should you already have taken any of it without permission).

And continues: “Like how capitalists arguably held back the developments of alternative fuels that could have saved our environment from global warming (LOL!)…”

BS! This assertion requires proof. I’m calling you out here, Sasha. Provide your proof please! While you’re at it explain the relevance of this piece of collectivist fluffiness, “our environment”. Of course, if you were merely being sarcastic or ironic then you may care to consider these questions: Does your comment demonstrate your idea? How?

And: “or how private property rights led to millions of deaths from poverty in Africa, while western world shielded its wealth with force and violence.”

This assertion also requires proof. I’m calling you out again, Sasha. Provide your proof for this as well please!

In discussing issues such as those pertaining to copyright and patents etc. it would pay to keep matters clear and accurate. Stick to specifics. Concentrate on the essentials. Don’t try to mislead. Avoid introducing irrelevancies. None of that is helpful to learning.

Talofa!

Sione

Posted by: Sione at December 23, 2006 6:12 PM

Sione,

First of all – I was not trying to establish analogy between patents and property rights. We must be clear on that. I tried (and succeeded) in showing a clear analogy between communist ideology and anti-copyright crowd on this blog and elsewhere.

I’m not fond of state patent system and I stated that patents are violation of free market process to the extent that they go beyond copyright (contractual terms of use)… And that’s also what Rothbard said.

—

HOWERER – many of attacks on copyrights that try to go beyond what Rothbard said are simply based on a flawed collectivism.

Plus, you pretended that you didn’t understand I was only making sarcastic remarks based on such logic – just to show how absurd these “arguments” are. Why would I provide any proof for my sarcastic statements – if my intention is to show how such reasoning is baseless and without proof?

Of course that I would never argue that resources used for private property protection can be put into “more productive use” if we abolish property. But silly argument of that kind is used by copyright haters as well. They say – if people were not focusing so much on policing their products’ terms of use – they could have used those resources for better use (like R&D;). But you understand why these arguments are ridiculous, since you correctly asked “better for whom?” That was exactly my point.

I had to react to the “argument” that people are “better of” when they forego their individual interests in patents – and that we should, instead, allow millions of people just to share what they have. I mean – how is this not parallel to communist argument on why would sharing resources be actually more efficient? How is a free-rider who waits to pick-up someone else’s invention for free any different than a communist free-rider who waits to be fed by someone else?

Also, I had to react on those silly comments that patents caused HIV deaths – and not combined forces of HIV, local irresponsibility, and African self-inflicted poverty. I mean, give me a break. If you start blaming western businessman for shielding property that might help someone in Africa – there is no stop to that madness. That’s why I used environment analogy – just to show how silly is to claim that individual interests “hold back” new technology, like in environmentalist hysteria. Using the same flawed logic you will blame property rights for market distortion (like David C did) and you will start advocating a communist anarchy that would create more equality by destroying profit-motivated economy and bringing African misery to the west.

—-

The only argument one ever needs to defend copyright is following: you have a property right and logical capability to create free-market contracts that would protect them. All you need to do is to establish the terms of use and to specify that unauthorized use will result in your damages.

But what should I do when people ignore this – and instead focus on utilitarian, collectivist ideas on why copyright (and valid patents) are “bad for you”? I choose to use the favorite Austrian technique: reductio ad absurdum. I love to adopt flawed arguments of my opponents and to bring them to their logical conclusion, at which point their absurdity is obvious to anyone who cares to think.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 23, 2006 10:15 PM

Sasha,

a) “collectivism” is not inherently evil or irrational. It *is* when socialist governments under their utopian master plans coerce it on people, but copying and imitation is not inherently coercive.

b) When you said “but to prevent conflict over a commercial use of someone’s item.” – the nature of the item you are talking about is non exclusive. The conflict is not over the item, but over distribution channels and market share. That conflict is solved by the market. Maybe ford has no incentive to make cars if Christler can. That is not a problem. Maybe Christler made a car first, that is not an issue, but a first mover advantage.

c) You must have misread me, because I agree that private property rights are not a distortion of markets. but if I have a farm that looks just like my neighbors farm, and the government tries to deny me use of my property because of that, then that IS a distortion of free markets.

d) When people in Africa tried to make their own generic AIDS medications. Western pharmaceuticals sued to stop them in the world court. It didn’t cause their AIDS, but it did prevent them from helping themselves which is just as evil and certainly is responsible for a million AIDS deaths. You call that restriction a “property right”? I strongly disagree.

e) The free market is answering the “enforcement” question. There is a reason why IBM, Sun, HP, and all the others typically choose to cross-license in detente rather than monetize patent royalties. In fact, that’s my concern. The free market answered the Marxism question in the deaths of 100 million people. It answered the “is a slave property” question with a bloody civil war and half a million dead people. It is answering the “are copyrights property” in these very years, right now as I speak. It will also answer the patent question, an answer that I am afraid will be very violent.

f) The “free rider” problem is not a problem with copyrights and patents because of their non exclusive nature. In fact, even Microsoft and Norton have taken strong advantage of “free riders” to expand their market share. In fact, the massive expansion of Linux in spite of predictions, the problems with the RIAA, Microsoft’s loss of the server space, and so on is the markets way of saying – “copyrights are garbage”

g) “utilitarian” arguments count! Freedom and liberty are not some esoteric concepts, they are deeply and intimately connected to happiness, success, and understanding success and failure in the real world. It is people like me, in high tech R&D;, that are supposed to see the fruits of copyrights and patent first hand. Yeah, I’ve seen them all right. The theory and reality of copyrights and patents are not matching because the premise is wrong. They are not “property”.

h) “reductio ad absurdum” with copyrights implies that someone would own every letter, word, punctuation mark, and phrase, every language, math formula, every note, color, shape, and pattern. No one could be free in such a world.

“The only argument one ever needs to defend copyright is following: you have a property right and logical capability to create free-market contracts that would protect them. All you need to do is to establish the terms of use and to specify that unauthorized use will result in your damages.”

The “property right” you are referring to can only be a privacy right. If someone violates that, or violates a contract to respect that – then he has violated you. Not, everyone else who happens to come across that information later on. They have no agreement with you, have not violated your liberty, are acting non coercively, unfradulently, and owe you nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 24, 2006 2:08 AM

Wait a tick David C, I have to argue on a couple of your points:

a) Collectivism not evil? I thought the greatness of Capitalism was the Individual. Collectivism is just another synonym for Socialism/Communism, just type ‘Collectivism’ into Word then Right-click. Any name for a system where group rights override individual rights are anti-Capitalism, last time I looked anyway.

e) The American Civil War was fought on slavery? Isn’t that the official Statist view? Wasn’t the real reason the right of states for self-determination/seccession? That the Union would nowadays be the USA and CSA? Slavery has been around since, well, ever, it’s especially found in the Old Testament. It’s also found in the New Testament as well in Saint Paul’s famous line: ‘slaves obey your masters’. It seems the standard Christian view about slavery, and other social trappings, are of no concern as people should ready themselves for the Kingdom of God.

Posted by: Sam at December 24, 2006 4:16 AM

Sam, Arrgh … Socialisim, communisim, collectivisim, they’re such loaded words. I should have said “sharing resources as a group is not inherently evil as long as it’s not coerced.” Thanks.

Posted by: David C at December 24, 2006 9:34 AM

Hold up there Sasha,

It was you who introduced the analogy of farms to patents. The analogy failed and DID NOT succeed in showing a relationship between communist ideology and the anti-copyright crowd. An assertion that you did manage to demonstrate this is all very well but, on this occasion at least, it is baseless. Besides which you are playing the man here and not the idea. Stick to essentials. That’s the way to make a point.

Likewise, sarcastic remarks do nothing to make an argument. If you want to make a point then make it. Explain exactly what you mean. Be explicit about it. In this case sarcasm was substituted for an explanation of your idea. How is that helpful to the reader? It isn’t, especially when you are comparing things which are not alike or not obviouly related. Avoid introducing such comparisons and relationships. Stick to essentials.

An example you wrote: “I had to react to the “argument” that people are “better of” when they forego their individual interests in patents – and that we should, instead, allow millions of people just to share what they have. I mean – how is this not parallel to communist argument?”

You are committing the error of misrepresenting your correspondant’s argument here. Further it is clear that the elimination of patents and the “rights” (should be called priveldges granted by govt) associated with them is a Libertarian idea. One can hardly say that Libertarianism and communism have similar arguments. Surely not? That would be to mischaracterise one or the other or both. Surley it would have been better to address your correspondent’s argument directly and show where, how and why you disagree with it.

In your last post to me you explain why you wrote as you did. Consider this. You could have saved yourself all that by sticking to essentials in the first instance. Just make the argument & avoid the rest.

Turning now to copyright.
You wrote: “The only argument one ever needs to defend copyright is following: you have a property right and logical capability to create free-market contracts that would protect them. All you need to do is to establish the terms of use and to specify that unauthorized use will result in your damages.”

Fair enough.

I have some questions.
What is the property right to which you refer? What is the property exactly?

Talofa!

Sione

Posted by: Sione at December 24, 2006 12:40 PM

Sione,

You are incorrect. I didn’t introduce the analogy between private property and patents. I only used farms example to illustrate how flawed is the logic of anti-copyright crowd when it is applied outside of patents.

Maybe that was too complicated for you, but considers: if you say that patents & copyrights are bad because they direct resources toward protection – and away from production – can’t you make the same argument about private property rights? Well, you explained why such logic is flawed. Thank you very much.

Also, if you say that markets will be better off if we allowed free-riders to exist and for everyone to freely share their protected resources – why wouldn’t than collectivist farms work? Well, if David C read Mises he would know why Microsoft just doesn’t want to switch to freeware, and if he read Rothbard he would know why it is their private property right to create restrictive terms of use.

When David C says that patents are killing Africans by not providing them with free commercial use of their patents (although, there is no cure for AIDS) – doesn’t his logic also imply that wealthy westerners are killing starving Africans by not providing them with other kinds of things they are protecting? That logic is also communist and flawed.

And I was able to prove it once David C stated that private property rights are creating distortion in markets… I mean he started openly to advocate collectivism, fee-riders who wait for someone else to make invention for them – he basically proved my whole point.

—

As far as your question goes, I didn’t understand it. If I own a book – isn’t that my property? Do I need to give a definition of property? If I own something, I can make contracts with other individuals regarding its use. Do you agree? I can specify what use is allowed for the price paid (money plus damages in the amount of unauthorized copies). That’s it.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 24, 2006 8:19 PM

David C,

a) Collectivism is inherently bad if it is based on unauthorized use (trespass) of someone else’s property. Violations of copyright contracts are exactly that.

b) As I said, copyrights are created to protect the owner’s private property right to sell one kind of use of his product, while restricting others.

c) I didn’t misread you. You said that private property rights are distortion of markets – twice! If you changed your mind, that’s cool.

d) When people in Africa make their own “generic drugs” they don’t just make their own independent invention. No. Unlike European and Asian firms that buy commercial use (licenses) of American products – Africans just cheaply by personal use of pharmaceuticals – and than just decide to “upgrade” their products with trespassing (unauthorized use). That kind of theft is not any different from any other kind of trespass (like someone who invades your property and than claims that its fruits are his).

e) Your understanding of American Civil War and communist crimes is just ludicrous. Private property rights and contracts (including copyrights) are not responsible for any aggression. Quite the opposite – they are forces against aggression.

f) Free-rider issue is problem with copyrights/patents, just like with any other aspect of private property rights. In these communist systems, while one person produces, risks, and invests – the other waits to just take over fruits of someone else’s labor. Eventually, the system that rewards free-riders and puts inventors in a disadvantage eventually collapses. I already explained while Linux’s bundling “free” products with expensive services is not in everyone’s interest – and it is not up to you to decide if someone will use copyright protection of his own property.

g) Baseless attempts of utilitarian arguments don’t count if that advocates violations of free-market contracts (like copyright). I never said that copyright is property – but it is a contractual protection of exclusive property use.

h) Copyright can only apply to the original authorship – that you would not be able to produce identically on your own. Your assertion that: you can never be free, unless you are allowed to freely take someone else’s commercial use of their own property (against your own contractual terms of use) – shows how deeply you can slip into communism if you insist on Kinsella’s nonsensical views.
—-

I already answered many times to a flawed “third party” objection to copyrights. Third party who causes the buyer to violate contract will never be responsible for contractual breach. It can only be responsible for tort (non-contractual injury) caused to a side in contract that must liable for any breach, regardless of who did it (otherwise, no contract would ever be enforced and we would have a “license to steal” by using third parties).

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 24, 2006 9:57 PM

Sasha

Stop with the equivocation and evasion already! Goodness, gracious!

You write: “I didn’t introduce the analogy between private property and patents.”

As you may recall, my objection was to an analogy you attempted to establish between patents and farms. Now, I’ve since reread this thread a couple of times and unless there is someone else posting under your name then it was indeed you who did try to establish the analogy I criticised. You wrote and I directly quote: “Could we say that if a person looses his private property rights on one farm, but in turn gains access to one hundred other farms in a commune…etc”.

Besides which, you have yet to prove anything at all. I see you assert otherwise but you should be aware that assertions and claims are not substantive on their own. They sure are not proofs either.

Regarding copyright.

You write: “The only argument one ever needs to defend copyright is following: you have a property right and logical capability to create free-market contracts that would protect them.”

Rather than arguing floating abstractions I’d like to pin this down so I know exactly what you are talking about.

“You have a property right.” What property right is this to which you refer? How does it relate to copyright? Are all types of property able to be subject to copyright or only a certain class or type of property?

Sione

Posted by: Sione Vatu at December 25, 2006 1:34 AM

I generally agree with Stephan Kinsella’s analysis of IP. Government intervention has made a real mess of things here, and perpetuates the consistent violation of property rights to the financial benefit of a few.

However, I think that the core of Sasha’s argument on copyright definitely has merit. That is that voluntary contracts that mimic current copyright should not be prohibited. If a buyer signs a contract upon purchase that says, “I will not make copies of this product,” then we are talking about a voluntary agreement. To me, this seems like a perfectly valid concept, and to prohibit this type of contract would be anti-liberty.

However, I think there are still plenty of valid concerns to address. I don’t feel like these are not the kind of problems that can be brushed aside:

1. Third parties. Sasha believes that the copy contract should stipulate that the buyer is liable if a third party makes a copy. I had some questions about this, though. Let’s say someone steals a book that was sold under a copy contract and makes 50,000 copies of it. Or, more likely, scans it and makes it available via download on the web. By Rothbard’s rules for theft, the wronged party is entitled to having his property returned plus some additional compensation. But what about the “theft” of copies? I would argue that this is not true theft, since the third party is under no obligation to the seller of the book. The buyer would get back his book and a bit of extra compensation. The thief would get to keep the copies that he made. The buyer, who broke contract by “allowing” the copies, presumably loses. Book theft suddenly looks like a lucrative, low-risk profession.

2. Enforcement. This would apply just as easily to the above concern, but I’ll frame it differently to remove the element of theft. Let’s say a buyer of a book loans it to a third party. That third party secretly posts the book on a website and thousands of downloads ensue. Now, our third party has technically done nothing wrong. The bookseller might investigate and (possibly) discover the identity of this third party. They might also find out that this third party never signed any contract and so is not bound by it. If the third party chooses not to disclose who loaned him the book, the seller has no recourse but to accept the loss.

The problem I see with the first point is that no one would buy books. Only an idiot would take that risk, which would presumably have no time limit. Those that did buy under these contracts would carefully guard their books and then burn them once finished reading them.

The second problem shows the that such a scheme is impractical in the real world without coercion and/or serious invasion of privacy. So, while I agree that Sasha’s scheme is legal and possible to implement, I see it as an ineffectual substitute for (already weakly enforced) government intervention.

So, can we try to argue on something a bit more fundamental like this, and drop the name-calling?

Posted by: Scott D at December 25, 2006 11:03 AM

a) Collectivism is inherently bad if it is based on unauthorized use (trespass) of someone else’s property. Violations of copyright contracts are exactly that.

I can violate copyrights without leaving my living room, without even going on the Internet. Trespass like the hell it is. It’s more likely the other way around, imposing copyrights is trespass on me and my space.

b) As I said, copyrights are created to protect the owner’s private property right to sell one kind of use of his product, while restricting others. … and …. Also, if you say that markets will be better off if we allowed free-riders to exist and for everyone to freely share their protected resources – why wouldn’t than collectivist farms work? Well, if David C read Mises he would know why Microsoft just doesn’t want to switch to freeware, and if he read Rothbard he would know why it is their private property right to create restrictive terms of use.

Thanks, but I know why Microsoft doesn’t want to switch. They have a personal government monopoly on distribution, why would they? But alas, it will be a shock when Microsoft gets kicked out of the marketplace in 2 or 3 years here. Also, I have read Rothbard’s position on copyright and he is wrong for the same reasons you are. FYI the tendency to mix up copyright, property, trespass, tort, privacy, and contract rights a lot is symtomic of boundaries problem typical in statists.

c) I didn’t misread you. You said that private property rights are distortion of markets – twice! If you changed your mind, that’s cool. … and … And I was able to prove it once David C stated that private property rights are creating distortion in markets… I mean he started openly to advocate collectivism, fee-riders who wait for someone else to make invention for them – he basically proved my whole point.

Shame on you Sasha, do you slander me for the sake of compelling argument? anybody could scroll up and see the quote said “YES! If the government controls how people used their own *copies* of property, then that is a true distortion of liberty and free markets.” My farm is my property weather it looks like yours or not, and the government messing with my property is a distortion. Of course I switched context on you, but you did on me too … farms analogous to patents, what a crock. Also, this paragraph reveals a reasoning fallacy. Just property rights lead to powerful incentives, but coercion of incentives does not lead to just property rights. The point is that if someone has a factory that an invention will make 10% more efficient, then it is market forces pushing that invention forward, not a patent monopoly. Copying and imitating does not disincentive any more than using E=mc^2 disincentives Einstein.

d) When people in Africa make their own “generic drugs” they don’t just make their own independent invention. No. Unlike European and Asian firms that buy commercial use (licenses) of American products – Africans just cheaply by personal use of pharmaceuticals – and than just decide to “upgrade” their products with trespassing (unauthorized use). That kind of theft is not any different from any other kind of trespass (like someone who invades your property and than claims that its fruits are his). … and … When David C says that patents are killing Africans by not providing them with free commercial use of their patents (although, there is no cure for AIDS) – doesn’t his logic also imply that wealthy westerners are killing starving Africans by not providing them with other kinds of things they are protecting? That logic is also communist and flawed.

Copying AIDS medications is no more a trespass or invasion than copying the layout of a fruit stand, they were not coercing “wealthy westerners” to provide them with anything. The cost of the R&D; is irrelevant. If a pharmaceutical makes an irrational investment based on the assumption of a fraudulent “property” right, then that is their problem, not Africa’s. Restricting how these people could help themselves was murderous.

e) Your understanding of American Civil War and communist crimes is just ludicrous. Private property rights and contracts (including copyrights) are not responsible for any aggression. Quite the opposite – they are forces against aggression.

Patents are genocidal and copyrights are trespass, the arguments to the contrary are what’s ludicrous.

f) Free-rider issue is problem with copyrights/patents, just like with any other aspect of private property rights. In these communist systems, while one person produces, risks, and invests – the other waits to just take over fruits of someone else’s labor. Eventually, the system that . I already explained while Linux’s bundling “free” products with expensive services is not in everyone’s interest – and it is not up to you to decide if someone will use copyright protection of his own property.

Your theory implies “rewards free-riders and puts inventors in a disadvantage eventually collapses”, but here we have the Internet the biggest copy violation tool ever to birth upon human existence. Did music creation go decrease and stagnate, did software creation, did authoring? No, No, and No. they boomed, therefore the theory is wrong.

g) Baseless attempts of utilitarian arguments don’t count if that advocates violations of free-market contracts (like copyright). I never said that copyright is property – but it is a contractual protection of exclusive property use.

This is another way of saying, “theories of copyright and contract don’t have to match up with the real world”, well they don’t! and I count the use of the word property 20 times up there!

h) Copyright can only apply to the original authorship – that you would not be able to produce identically on your own. Your assertion that: you can never be free, unless you are allowed to freely take someone else’s commercial use of their own property (against your own contractual terms of use) – shows how deeply you can slip into communism if you insist on Kinsella’s nonsensical views.

If this copyright is really a value incentive, a value offer, then extending it down to the letter should enhance it’s value offer not the other way around. It does with regular contracts and property. Show me the contract I signed! Where is it?

i)I already answered many times to a flawed “third party” objection to copyrights. Third party who causes the buyer to violate contract will never be responsible for contractual breach. It can only be responsible for tort (non-contractual injury) caused to a side in contract that must liable for any breach, regardless of who did it ( and we would have a “license to steal” by using third parties).

Tort implies that the act of copying causes harm rather than the violation of privacy or contract, a false premise. And of course copyrights couldn’t be enforced otherwise! that’s why copyrights are a poor market mechanism unless the government coerces everyone and intrudes on their privacy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 25, 2006 11:53 AM

Scott, I didn’t realise this was percieved as name calling match. In spite of harsh critizisim and occasional poking fun at her, I hope it is understood that I have a deep respect for Sasha. No one can falut her love of freedom and property rights. In spite of our strong disagreements about copyright and patent, she clearly has a deep respect for the value of the individual. I think the truth is that we are all sick and tired of having “collective” gargage ramned down our throats, her reaction very healthy considering. I don’t think the intensity of her position is personal, I wouldn’t be supprised if she lived thru some large statist evil first hand. (uhhh, one after thought, ‘Sasha’ is a female name, right?) … one more thing, merry christmas to everyone.

Posted by: David C at December 25, 2006 12:47 PM

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Sasha does not have to be a female name. in Slavic languages it’s short for Alexander (as Bill for William, or Dick for Richard here). The name is spelled differently in differently, so you have Sacha Baron Cohen (Borat and Ali G guy. I already said I’m a guy couple of times on this blog.

——

Sione,

Why don’t you just read more carefully…

Some anti-patent arguments based on false utilitarianism can also be applied to any segment of our lives and take us straight to communism. If you argue that patents are “bad” because we could put protective and legal resources to “better use” – the same thing could be argued about private property rights. While protecting private property we also use our resources for defense and protection, legal issues – rather than putting them to what David C thinks is a “better use”…

The same goes for their anti-patent “dying Africans” argument. The fact that some Africans are dying could not in itself justify any action that would be directed to help them in the short run… If we accepted this logic, any theft of western wealth could be justified.

Also, if anti-patent crowd argues that it is much better to freely share each other’s resources and that free-riders (someone who waits for someone else to make an invention for him) are not a problem at all – than they also imply that collectivism is good in farming and elsewhere. There is also “sharing of resources” and free-riders there, right?

—-

Scott D,

I answered to your concerns many times before on this blog:

1. Third parties. Sides in contract can never be excused for third party actions that cause a breach. That’s how it is in any type of contract, or otherwise they would be unenforceable. However, I said that the buyer can recover his liability by bringing the tort case against a third party who caused him an injury.

As in any contract, you cannot be excused for a third party action that causes your breach of contract (otherwise, third party would have a “license to steal” and no contract could ever be enforced… that would be a good-bye to market exchanges). But if you are liable for the amount of damages based on contract – you are going to seek a tort case against that third party that caused you that damage. This third party knows that in all likelihood you can claim that your book was stolen, and a “finder” who reveals himself will have a hard time to prove that it wasn’t stolen. That would shift the cost of your liability to this third party. That will finally avert these “finders” from putting someone else’s property into a commercial use.

2. Enforcement. Privatization of copyright would make it only more efficient than it is today.

I disagree with your assertion that no one would sign a copyright contract – but if you don’t like it – don’t sign it. You think that not too many people would buy books based on these conditions – but you forget that most of the people aren’t thieves – and those who are… well, they should pay. People who do not want to violate their terms of use would be perfectly safe, because any breach of contract that’s not their fault could be recovered in a tort case against third party violator.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 1:32 PM

David C

a) Don’t be so medieval. Of course you can commit a trespass by never leaving your room. I can fail to deliver some ordered goods and services without leaving my room. Likewise, I can violate my terms of use in my room by unauthorized use of someone else’s product. Physical location is not relevant here.

b) Copyright is nothing but an exercise of private property rights over a commercial use of some product. Microsoft has every right to insist on it – just like their competitors may choose to discount this protection, in order to make more money in service activities. It’s their own business – not yours, or Kinsella’s

c) Copyright is not “coercion of incentives”. It is simply a protection of exclusive terms of commercial use that a particular owner sells to publishers, licensees, etc. If you would take that type of use for free – no one would be foolish to ever pay anything to authors for those kinds of copying rights. Of course this would reduce incentives for authorship.

d) Unauthorized reproduction of someone else’s pharmaceuticals is nothing but a theft or trespass. It’s like paying for cheapest airline tickets and then trying to “upgrade’ them for free. The fact that Africans are dying is not an excuse for theft. They should humbly ask for charity if they cannot afford medications, instead of advocating the theft.

e) Patents are not genocidal, and copyrights are protection against trespass. Let me remind you that trespass is “unauthorized use.” If you sign a contract that prohibits you from commercial use of a product – than any violation of these terms is trespass by definition.

f) Free-rider problem exist everywhere where property rights are violated. The fact that musicians use P2P Napster-style technologies to promote their concerts does not prove your point. Advertisements are generally given away to consumers – but the book authors cannot afford to have unrestricted reproductions of their works. They cannot fill the concert halls and stadiums with their lectures. They choose to only sell the personal use of their products – and it is their private property right to do so.

g) Copyright and private property rights do match-up with the real world. Individuals can decide for themselves how they want to formulate them. But if someone advocates open violation of valid private contracts – than we’re talking about communist revolutionaries and then we have a serious problem.

h) I don’t know what you talked about under this point. It seems that you don’t understand what the contract is and what different types of contracts exist. Copyright is a contractual restriction in terms of use. I don’t know what “value” nonsense you refer to.

i) In cases of copyrights violations caused by third party, the “tort” implies that this party is not held responsible for breach of contract – but for a direct injury caused by his actions. This basically refutes Kinsella’s major “argument” and demonstrates that copyright contracts would be possible and enforceable in a perfectly free market.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 2:16 PM

Oh, I forgot about this…

Sione asked:
“”You have a property right.” What property right is this to which you refer? How does it relate to copyright? Are all types of property able to be subject to copyright or only a certain class or type of property?”

I already answered this in great detail.

If you own something, you have a right to sell it or contractually arrange someone else’s use of it. This means that you can contractually provide the personal use of your product – in exchange for money and entitlement on specified damages for any violation of contract.

Sione asked how this relates to copyright, as if this wasn’t self-evident. If you contractually specify that you only sell non-commercial use of your product and that in case of violation all resulting products (unauthorized copies and/or profits) will belong to you – how is this not a copyright? It is perfectly consistent with your private property rights over that item you sold.

Sione asked: what classes of products are subject to copyright. Use common sense. Anything that can be discovered independently cannot be declared as unauthorized reproduction. If you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone copied your item against explicit terms of use – than copyright can be enforced. You cannot claim that someone violated your copyright by painting his store in a certain shade of yellow, because it would be impossible to prove that this person did not created this shade based on his own independent discovery. But you can certainly prove that I didn’t write independently, word-for-word, my pirate copies of Hoppe’s “Democracy: the God that Failed.” In this case, I inexpensively bought personal use of his book (as copyright notice stated) – but than I turned it without any authorization into more expensive commercial use – for free.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 4:40 PM

Sasha writes:

“In cases of copyrights violations caused by third party, the “tort” implies that this party is not held responsible for breach of contract – but for a direct injury caused by his actions.”

Sasha, *even in tort law*, if a person wishes to recover damages from the third party, the third party must be guilty of wrongdoing!!!!
You can not sue me for damages if I cause you to be late to your job interview by driving too slow (unless I am violating a minimum speed limit). I have not acted tortially (a real word) … and neither has the copier (unless he has unlawfully obtained the copy of your book by stealing it, or sneaking into your home, etc.).
So, in order for you to recover your damages from the third party, you must first have a law/statute in place which says copying is wrong/illegal in general — i.e. copyright. So there can be no tort without an overarching copyright law.

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 25, 2006 4:45 PM

Fred,

You are incorrect again. If you are caught with the piece of my property in your hands (after you made and sold thousands of its unauthorized copies) – and I claim that my item is stolen (even if it wasn’t), you will have a hard time proving that you just accidentally found it and that you were not aware of consequences if you put it into a commercial use. The real danger of being accused of theft and responsible for damages would deter accidental finders to make profits by using someone else’s property like it’s their own. When I say “someone else’s property” I come from the common law tradition in which a finder cannot have a better property claim than the original owner.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 5:08 PM

Sasha,
In your scenario, I am not putting your property into commercial use unless the IDEAS contained within the book are considered your property. Your property is the book — ink on paper, and nothing else. You do not own the contents (which again are ideas). So if I find your book on the beach and I copy it and leave it there unharmed, I have not stolen your property. I have not trespassed or violated any conceivable law (unless you want to make touching a lost or abandoned item a crime). So, when I reproduce the IDEAS in the book, I am not putting your property into commercial use (as you said above) unless, yet again, the ideas are your property. This is because I am putting the IDEAS into commercial use, not the physical book. So your argument only holds if you think that a book and the ideas contained within that book are one and the same thing, which, apparently, you do. But I can assure you that they are not the same thing.
Also, falsely claiming that I stole this book (which, as you may remember, is still sitting exactly where YOU carelessly left it/lost it) isn’t really going to deter me since I’m not guilty of anything (sorry, no tort). But you may find yourself in some hot water for making false accusations (possible tort).

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 25, 2006 9:37 PM

Mr Sasha Radeta (deep apologies about calling you a ‘she’)

You say copying is trespass, I say copyrights are trespass. You say it’s a property, I say it’s a government micro regulation. You say it’s protection, I say it’s coercion. You say Africans dying of AIDS were thieving, I say they were being murdered. You say unrestricted copying is a free rider tragedy of the commons, I say it’s a freedom miracle. You say copyrights offer real world benefit, I say their destruction does. You say copyright can be secured thru contract and tort, I say they can only attempt to be secured thru massive government intrusion of peoples liberty and privacy.

Well it’s either one way or the other. The truth is not an opinion. It is measurable, it is learnable, it is approachable, we live in a rational existence. With my version of existence a lot of things start to make sense: Like why were safety devices in cars 20 late from when they were invented? Why did 50 million people die of malaria long after DDT use was common? Why do we have so many incompatible parts and interfaces in the market? Why did the Africans have such a difficult time getting AIDS drugs? and when they did get them, why did the US government flip the bill at over 13 billion dollars? Why did the less proprietary Linux, Intel, x86, TCP/IP, and Ethernet take off when the better supported alternatives didn’t? Why did the Internet encourage creativity instead of destroy it? Why does India have more drug innovation than the richly funded US? Why does Microsoft support suck, and Linux support not in spite of 1/10th the funding? How could Linux capture the data center space from Microsoft with 1/100th the backing? Why does Hollywood put out so much crap? Why all the chaos and intrusions of our privacy with the MPAA and RIAA?

It’s clear our differences are way beyond just some misunderstanding or clairification, so fine, lets just let the facts speak for themselves.

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 25, 2006 10:06 PM

Negative sir, you totally misunderstood it.

As I already explained – ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical. The book’s “content” is nothing but patterns of letters in a book. So we are talking about physical characteristics.

The owner of that book can contractually prohibit the reproduction of these physical characteristics of his product, while selling only its personal use.

As far as your “finding” of a lost book goes – any thief can claim he found something. It’s not much of a defense, trust me. A smart finder will keep it quite and avoid commercial use of someone else’s property.

Rothbard even implied that a third party could be responsible for trespass (unauthorized use) and injury against the original owner who has the exclusive ownership over commercial use (regardless of contracts) – but I wouldn’t go there.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 10:11 PM

The answer above is for Fred.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 10:42 PM

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon said: La propriété, c’est le vol! (Property is theft!)

David C said: copyright is trespass.

—-

You can say whatever you want, but trespass by definition is unauthorized use. Copyright is a contractual restriction in commercial use of someone else’s item (you can always avoid it by not buying the use of someone’s product).

DDT was not banned by free-market (perpetual) copyright advocates. As far as AIDS drugs go, I already told you that there is no cure – but if Africans want free drugs they need to ask for charity – and not flood the market with unauthorized copies… because the cure will not be developed if tomorrow African nations can simply flood the market, without paying a dime to people who invest billions in developing cures. But whatever you may think of it – pharmaceutical companies own their products – and they have a right not to give away for free the commercial use of their products (which they sell to Europeans).

You already know that Linux is not even close to Microsoft – and that Microsoft’s service “sucks” precisely because they don’t make majority od their dollars with services (their products are so widespread that services could be taken over by people outside of the company). Linux on the other hand bundle their easy-to-rip products with better service that is rare to find and stays within the company). It is their choice… If you are foolish to argue that Microsoft is unsuccessful compared to Linux – go for it. But Microsoft has every right and every reason to insist on their copyright – and a free market oriented people can only support that.

As far as your comment about Hollywood goes – I also think it sucks and I love Almodovar’s and Kusturica’s films more than anything… But consumers don’t think it sucks and this industry has a right to either protect its commercial channels with copyrights – or if some companies choose to invest in improving the movie theatre experience and drop copyright on DVDs (as their form of advertisement) – they are free to do so.

You are in disadvantage David C, because I never claimed that copyright is in everyones interest (new musicians, young hi-tech companies who can capitalize on services, etc). But it is their CHOICE to decide whether or not they want to restrict the commercial use of their property with copyright. For many people (like book authors) this is not a choice, but the matter of survival. Nevertheless, you cannot advocate the forceful abolition of copyright if you care about private property rights.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 25, 2006 11:13 PM

I don’t post much, but I read quite a bit. I’ve seen Sasha’s rants on a number of IP articles lately and I think I know where the confusion lies.
Sasha said:
“As I said, copyrights are created to protect the owner’s private property right to sell one kind of use of his product, while restricting others.”

I say come into the real world, Sasha! You can’t sell or restrict uses of your product. If you want to restrict certain uses of it, don’t sell the product. No amount of licensing from Sony can stop me from using the PS3 as a doorstop. And I promise you, as soon as I get one, that’s what I’ll do with it.
If I were more scientifically inclined, I might use the PS3 to simulate the solar system. Sure, Sony might make it hard for me to code for the beast (by using an unpublished proprietary programming language or whatnot), but discouraging unwanted use of their product is not the same as disallowing such, since the latter requires force directed against me.

Posted by: Cosmin at December 26, 2006 12:47 AM

Sasha:

Hmm. Interesting response. I realized that you have already addressed the issues I brought up (moreso in one of the other, many threads on IP, I believe), but I wanted to restate them to get a better idea of your arguments against them, since I’ve only followed this discussion peripherally.

So basically, whether your scheme works on not hinges upon a few points:

1. The courts’ cooperation in enforcing copy contracts. This is the debate that is going on now in this thread. Are such contracts valid, and should they extend beyond the two parties of the contract?

2. Widespread voluntary compliance on the part of buyers (since a single breach of contract makes a book worthless).

I suppose there is a workable framework here, but I’m still a bit skeptical that it would hold together in a free market. Thanks for the response.

David C.

I’m with you on Linux. While I could possibly see a market-based copyright on books, software is a different beast entirely. I think we tend to lump all of these things together because they are all covered by “copyright”. Code is modular and it is meant to be reused. As you pointed out, it takes almost no investment to write software now, and it gets ever easier as the base of reusable code grows over time.

I see the industry moving towards a service-based model. You can see this even in video games with the popularity of MMORPGs. Microsoft seems to be realizing this peripherally in validating Windows in order to download “free” products and trials, which treats Windows like a subscription to a bundle of products, but they’re still a long ways from where they should be.

Posted by: Scott D at December 26, 2006 8:49 AM

Cosmin,

Not even Kinsella dared to say that you have no property right to allow only certain uses of your own product. You are obviously clueless about the real world, the concept of rent, the concepts of conditional property title transfer (upon which many types of voluntary contracts rest, including labor – when you are entitled to something only if you satisfy specified conditions). If you accept your term of use for PS3 and you state that you will not replicate it (plus that any product made without authorization will belong to them) – no one is using aggression against you. No one forced you to accept those terms of use! Just like you cannot “upgrade” your airline services whenever you feel like it, you cannot “upgrade” your terms of use.

—–

Scott D,

I respect your skepticism and I hope that it will produce some concrete objections to my arguments. Unproductive skepticism is useless.

1. If you imply that free and voluntary acceptance of personal use of someone’s product (and restriction of commercial use) is invalid – provide some argument for it. Don’t just say it like Cosmin, without providing any logical argument or example.

2. Compliance of buyers is always stated in purchasing contract (terms of use). It is the likelihood and severity of punishment that deters people from violating their own voluntary obligations.

As far as Linux goes – I wish them all the luck, but they ain’t Microsoft – and due to their size, it is their best interest to pursue service-based model and make people try their products any way they can. But like I said – that is a choice of every company. Microsoft’s success (against old giants with patents) cannot be an argument in favor of copyrights/patents, just as Linux’s performance cannot be an argument that voluntary copyright is legally invalid. These (often misplaced) utilitarian arguments have nothing to do with legal subjects we’re talking about.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 26, 2006 9:47 AM

“…ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.”

With this definition, Sasha, you are saying that any and every idea can be owned … the wheel, the practice of farming, etc. … so long as one writes it down or makes some physical object with this idea (i.e. when one makes a wheel, one owns “wheels”).

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 26, 2006 11:21 AM

Sasha, just because I don’t agree with aspects of the real world doesn’t mean I’m clueless about it.
Let’s say I buy a toothbrush. The toothbrush company says I can only buy one of their toothbrushes if I don’t use it to clean the floor. Is it your claim that if I do clean the floor with said toothbrush, they can come and take it from me?
This is all beside the point, anyway. Patents restrict the freedom of those who don’t enter into any agreement with the patent holder. For instance, I see a commercial for an ab machine on TV. Looks interesting enough, but I don’t want to order it, so I head down to the garage and make an exact replica of the machine I saw on TV. Heck, it’s so easy to do and fun to use, I build more and give them to my friends and family. Then I’m thinking that I’ve become pretty good at building the things, so I make more of them and sell them to whoever else wants help doing their crunches. Is it your position that the ab machine company can come and shut me down?

Posted by: Cosmin at December 26, 2006 12:18 PM

Cosmin, I’m still rather confused by all this IP stuff, but your argument doesn’t make sense. No one is restricting your usage of a toothbrush or a PS3 because they don’t need to–they’re selling a physical product that has a particular use, and assume that you will use it that way, but it won’t hurt them if you use a PS3 as a doorstop, any more than it hurts an author (except maybe for his pride) if you buy his book and use it as a doorstop.

The question has to do with ideas in a fixed form. If you buy a novel, scan the pages into your computer, and then make it available online to read or download (without his permission, that is) are you “harming” the author by preventing sales of his book, or do you have a perfect right to do so, and he just has to make the best of it?

Posted by: Michael A. Clem at December 26, 2006 1:06 PM

Sasha,

My skepticism is more of the “looks fine on paper but probably won’t fly” variety. If I come up with something more concrete than that, I’ll let you know.

On another note, what are your thoughts on derivative works?

Posted by: Scott D at December 26, 2006 1:25 PM

Michael, I wrote that in direct response to Sasha’s claim that owners have a “private property right to sell one kind of use of his product, while restricting others”.
Of course the situation doesn’t make sense, but that’s because the premise posited by Sasha doesn’t make sense.
Your confusion may arise from the fact that you may have read Sasha’s comment as to only apply to a specific kind of use for the sold product. (Namely, redistribution.)
However, I really think Sasha meant to say that whatever bizarre condition the seller puts in the terms of use for his product, the buyer has to abide, since he agreed to everything specified in the terms of use when making his purchase. In Sasha’s view, all conditions placed by the seller are enforceable and must be followed to a T by the buyer, simply because they were put there by the one who had the original property right for said product.
If I am mistaken and this is not Sasha’s position, I would like him to make that clear so we can move on to the next part.
That next part is the actual topic of this thread and is exemplified by the ab machine story. I would love to hear Sasha’s point of view on this.

Posted by: Cosmin at December 26, 2006 2:42 PM

Fred,

You are now intentionally misinterpreting my statement. Now your nonsensical statements cannot be a accidental mistake. I already explained many times that products that can easily be discovered independently – cannot be copyrighted. Why? Well, how can you prove that someone copied your wheel??? Wheel can be discovered independently and no court would ever rule that someone copied my particular wheel. On the other hand – is it so difficult to prove whether or not I copied Hoppe’s book, word-for-word? Stop with that nonsense, please!

Of course that you can always sell a particular use of your product, while restricting the others. What poor Cosmin does not realize is that seller can be an idiot who will make all the different sorts of contractual demands – but it is your right not to buy such restrictive use of some product.

Copyrighted terms of use are not problematic at all. To honest and decent people, copyright on Hans Hermann Hoppe’s book is not difficult to abide. If I plan on using his book for my personal use and I contractually agree that I only pay for this kind of use – I will not start making unauthorized copies and start an illegitimate business based on a trespass.

—–

Cosmin,

Communists really have a hard time with law of demand. They say: “if you allow free-market price formation, someone can charge prices so high that poor people would starve”. What those poor souls don’t realize is that prices are formed by both supply and demand. Not only would suppliers compete with each other by lowering prices – but they also have to satisfy the market demand (willingness and ability of people to buy).

Likewise, you don’t understand that people have an absolute freedom and private property rights to put whatever bizarre condition in the terms of use for their products. BUT THE BUYERS DON’T HAVE TO ACCEPT THIS! The other sellers will attract them with less bizarre conditions, because they are aware of what people (the market participants) demand.

Please educate yourself and try to understand the basic law of demand and supply before you start insinuating that we could seriously have firms that will make money by prohibiting cleaning floors with a toothbrush. But it is obvious that Mises Institute has every right and logical interest to withhold the commercial use of its product for itself.

Regards.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 26, 2006 4:04 PM

And yes Cosim, if you voluntarily accept some bizarre terms of use of a product – you have to respect this contract. No one forced you to buy such use. If you change your mind, just don’t use the product anymore or try to get a refund if your seller accepts it back…

BUT,

You cannot pay a small of amount of money for some use (due to the bizarreness of a contract) – and than unilaterally decide that you will create a better conditions for yourself – and simply take the unauthorized use (commit a trespass or theft).

This is so simple to understand.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 26, 2006 4:10 PM

Sasha, you say: “Not only would suppliers compete with each other by lowering prices…”
Don’t you see that patents eliminate competing suppliers and thus give power to the remaining one to have a monopoly? Without competition-driven incentive for the price to go down, the supply of the product is skewed and the price strays from a free-market price.

As for the bizarre conditions, picture this: I make hats. They’re full of snazzy graphics, really cool motifs and I advertise everywhere to get interest in my product up. Then, when costumers come buy my hats, I tell them: you may only wear it while standing nude on a rooftop. That is my condition for property title transfer. In the real world, Sasha, do you think prospective buyers would be deterred from buying from me? Or would they still buy my product, thinking that I can in no way tell them what they can or can’t do with it after they bought it?
And is it your position that I would be justified in taking their hats if I see them wearing it while on the street and non-nude?

Posted by: Cosmin at December 26, 2006 4:52 PM

“products that can easily be discovered independently – cannot be copyrighted. Why? Well, how can you prove that someone copied your wheel??? Wheel can be discovered independently and no court would ever rule that someone copied my particular wheel. On the other hand – is it so difficult to prove whether or not I copied Hoppe’s book, word-for-word?”

With this, you seem to be saying that copying someone’s ideas is always wrong, but we can’t prosecute all copying because sometimes it is reasonable to believe that the “copier” actually came up with the idea independently. In other words, it’s just a feasibility/practicality issue. Well, what if I got you on tape saying “I’m going to copy Fred’s wheel device!”? Then can I sue you for damages when you use the wheel commercially? After all, you admitted on tape to copying my idea.
Or is it just that ideas are suddenly imbued with the quality of “ownability” when they reach a certain level of complexity? If so, how does this process work?

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 26, 2006 7:04 PM

Michael A. Clem,

“… If you buy a novel, scan the pages into your computer, and then make it available online to read or download (without his permission, that is) are you “harming” the author by preventing sales of his book, or do you have a perfect right to do so, and he just has to make the best of it?…”

I’m glad you mentioned this, because there are a zillion ways I could harm the author by preventing sales of his book. I could ask people not to buy it, I could ask publishers not to print it, I could get bookstores not to stock it, I could offer alternatives. Yes it may harm the Authors finances, Yes he may feel violated, But it is my God given right to do all of these in a free society. In fact, with any property of his I could ask people not to buy it, and it may do him harm.

Yes! I could drive down the resale value of his house too by asking people not to buy it, that is my God given right. But if I drive down the resale value of his house by burning it down, that is not a right and completely violates him. So what is the difference? both caused him financial harm. The difference is that the 2nd act deprived him use of the house that was rightly his. Well the same is true with a book, if I deprive him use of the book that was rightly his than it violates him. If I deprive him market share and resale value by flooding the market with copies of that book that I happen to already own then I deprive him nothing other than the ability to use the government to force people to buy a copy from no one other than him.

In fact I would argue that it’s our duty to break that government coercion. For consider the consequences. If he then doesn’t want to write his book or keep it to a tight circle of contracted friends, then fine, we will live without it – the information age will provide alternatives, and society will pass him by. In fact, this blog is proof of that – I get more quality reading material than I have time to read from it. Yet there are no royalties paid. Same with software. If copyrights were killed and Microsoft blew up tomorrow, software would still continue to innovate and improve. I can prove that.

On the other hand, if we wish to keep copyrights, then to secure that right will continue to take amazing efforts of enforcement. Just look at the MPAA and the RIAA. Anyone think things are going to get better? Basically somebody (the government) needs a way to intrude upon private transactions and make sure that it is independently authorized. The authorization must consider different formats, different platforms, compression, encryption (so does they government need our keys too?), and encoding, it must consider whether it be a transfer or a sale (eg, they need to scan our hard drive to ensure no duplicates). In addition, people who receive items have no way of knowing how authorized the distributor is. Maybe he paid for a license to have that mp3 on his site. There is DRM, but nobody will pay for a device that restricts the media they can have on it, so if you want enforcement built into the technology then you must get the government coerce the manufactures. The government must also impose restrictions on audio recording devices. In fact, even people who have valid copies that don’t share will often rip them off the audio output for ease of use. Of course there is also no native technology that can distinguish between free speech content and copyrighted content – so you must force all content into a DRM like system even if the author intended it to be totally unrestricted and it must be pre-approved by the powers that be. Also because the Internet is global, that means that enforcement rules must be global, which also means that government power to impose “tort” and damages must be universal. Yes, we need world government to effectively secure copyrights. IMHO. I’d rather live without.

 

 

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 26, 2006 10:11 PM

Cosimin,

Sober up and than we’ll talk seriously. In a free market, consumers have a choice to refuse or to accept even bizarre conditions and sellers have a choice to offer them… The success of Ricky Martin is the best example of how bizarre market’s selection can get… Anyway, there’s nothing bizarre about copyright. It’s the mean of survival for book-authors – and it’s perfectly consistent with free markets (it can be expressed through voluntary contracts).

—

Fred, did you also have some drinks on a Tuesday night? In order to prove that someone copied your product (didn’t invent it on his own) you must produce something distinctive and unique. Isn’t that a no-brainer? I don’t really get what you tried to say.

—

David C,

Of course you can help or harm some author in many ways that were never specified in your contract. That what professional critics do for their living. But you are not allowed to do anything against your voluntarily accepted contractual obligations. I mean, what are you trying to prove? That you can pay for one kind of use, accept to pay damages in case of violations of those terms – and then just do whatever you feel like with that product? Please, explain.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 26, 2006 11:02 PM

Sasha,
huh? I juat picked up this book at the used book store on a cruise ship in international waters, I didn’t sign any contract. It’s my property. I can do whatever I want with it.

Posted by: David C at December 26, 2006 11:21 PM

Sasha, you say you want to talk seriously. In that case, seriously stop avoiding my ab machine example. Let me repost it in case you don’t want to scroll up and look for it:
“Patents restrict the freedom of those who don’t enter into any agreement with the patent holder. For instance, I see a commercial for an ab machine on TV. Looks interesting enough, but I don’t want to order it, so I head down to the garage and make an exact replica of the machine I saw on TV. Heck, it’s so easy to do and fun to use, I build more and give them to my friends and family. Then I’m thinking that I’ve become pretty good at building the things, so I make more of them and sell them to whoever else wants help doing their crunches. Is it your position that the ab machine company can come and shut me down?”

Posted by: Cosmin at December 26, 2006 11:26 PM

Okay Sasha, I’ll spell it out for you…
Obviously, my “wheel” example was just an analogy meant to represent a scenario involving any “simple” invention. Actually, I guess it wasn’t so obvious …
Anyway, as we progress technologically, there will always be new “no brainer” inventions — i.e. very simple, new, and effective inventions which could certainly be developed numerous times independently (just like the wheel in the days of old). My question to you is, are these simple ideas …
A. … NOT ownable because they are simple (i.e. there is something inherent in simple ideas that makes them unownable), or …
B. … OWNABLE, but not realisticlly copyrightable, due to the fact that one would have a hard time proving that the copier didn’t invent the idea on his own? That is to say, *ALL* ideas are ownable, but it is not feasible/practical to accuse someone of stealing a “simple” idea, due to the high degree of probability that the accused “copier” actually came up with the idea on his own.
Do you see the difference?
And before you make another smug comment, may I remind you that in the previous blog on this subject, you said …

“I never said that I “own property in or of the ideas” (whatever that means). I own my physical property … ”

“You may hallucinate about “idea ownership” all day long. I never advocated such thing and your messages about that nonsense only illustrate the weakness of your arguments. ”

” I never mentioned that ideas are property. You hallucinated again.”

BUT THEN YOU SAID ABOVE…

“…ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.”

Do I have to point out the blatant contradiction?

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 27, 2006 12:32 AM

“So, in order for you to recover your damages from the third party, you must first have a law/statute in place which says copying is wrong/illegal in general — i.e. copyright. So there can be no tort without an overarching copyright law.”

Well actually to copy anything you must have use of the item. If you are not the owner of the item and you use it without permission then you are violating the law. You can’t just use my car when I happen not to be using it. Likewise you can’t use my book to copy it while I’m not reading it. You don’t have such permission and if I have signed a contract not to copy the book then I cannot give you such permission.

So there you are. Copyright is just about physical control of physical objects. It is about non-exclusive use after all.

Furthermore, if you steal my saw and use it to build a tree fort then in a sense I have a property interest in that tree fort. Do you think you can break into say the car factories at Ford Motor and build your own model-Ts when the workers are out on vacation or home sleeping at night? The factory is sitting idle so your use would be non-rivalous in one sense, but not in the sense that is important. The owner has a right to keep the factory idle during a strike.

Suppose you did just that. Showed up at night with a bunch of raw materials of your own and used the machinery to build model-Ts. Don’t you think the owner of the plant has property rights in those cars?

Both the raw materials and the machinery are productive inputs in creating the cars. Just so happens that one of the inputs is more durable than the others. That doesn’t mean it’s infinitely durable. Surely it will wear out over time even if it is only a mold makine “copies”. Thus it is “used up” in the production process.

Surely the value of machinery vastly outweights the cost of the ore in this case. You show up with a 100 ton of ore at say $5 a ton then use all the machinery to smelt it, form it and produce a cars worth thousands. Arguably, most of the value came from the machinery for if you didn’t have it you would only have a pile of iron oxide.

You are the one who caused the unlawful mixing of your property with anothers. So what exactly do you think me as a judge is going to order as restitution? Well, I’d turn the cars over to the owner of the plant and would probably confiscate the value of your ore for court costs and damages, plus fine you and put you in jail to boot.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 2:14 AM

Sasha,

I’ve thought this through and have reasonable answers for all the reasonable objections these guys have made. I think you have the correct answers in most cases but are a little off on some others. I think this is addressable on a purely physical issue, with co-ownership of the property in question. The copyright holder retaining copying rights to all physical copies and thus is a physical co-owner in every copy.

He doesn’t ever own an “idea”. But as you’ve said he owns the instantiation of an idea. In fact he is coowner in all instatiations of an idea that were copied directly or indirectly from his originals.

This means that he will need to be sure not to inadverently impose the ideas inherent in his works on unwilling individuals in order to protect his copyright. He would need to take reasonable care. If he doesn’t then it would as if he were polluting or mixing his property with the property of others (their brains).

There are simple answers to questions like “What if I see a commercial” or “Hear some elevator music”. The simple answer is that the owner of the TV station or building would have to restrict access to their goods to people who have agreed to abide by all contracts.

If I don’t want you copying my design for wheels then I should take reasonable care to cover them, or restrict use to places that are “covered by contract” or are private.

I don’t see why such coverage contracts could not become ubiquitous. After all if you want to use the latest invention on your property you are going to have to agree to such a scheme. If your farm isn’t going to enforce such rules on visitors then you aren’t going to be able to buy the latest farm machinery.

As for used books. Well the coownership in the book by contract could be dissolved by destruction of the book, or by return. In the case where the book is lost it may be reasonable to assume the original buyer can’t be found and so homestead the object but certainly the copyright owner can be found and retains ownership. Certainly if you knew who the original buyer was you’d be obligated to return his property. Why wouldn’t this apply to the coowner of the book, the copyright holder? Why wouldn’t the book be returned to him.

Now certainly the original buyer of the book can sell his co-ownership rights in the book at a used book sale. Those rights however never included the right to copy the book which is still owned by athe copyright holder so certainly the new owner doesn’t get full ownership. Instead the new owner is merely a coowner with the copyright holder as was the first buyer.

Libraries would also lend the books out on the basis that members of the library obey their obligations with regard to the books they take out.

So on and so forth.

The only objection that I’ve heard to this that sounds remotely reasonable is the worry that the copyright owner then by extension becomes the co-owner of someones brain who has read the book.

The answer to this is that in a sense he has in that you have agreed to some terms. The same can be said of any contract where you agree to something. In a way the person becomes a co-owner in you till you discharge your obligations with regard to the contract.

Likewise my owning a piece of property is in a way the ownership of a kind of control over everybody else. I get to say where they cannot go or what they cannot do with their bodies. Like they cannot get in my car and drive it away without my permission, or even pick up my pen. That’s a kind of ownership (ownership is control over something) that I have without any explicit contract.

So if you think that the copyright owners perventing you from copying his book from memory is a claim of ownership over you then your sort of right but only in a limited sense. The sense of saying something you cannot do with regards to his property. You cannot be and intermediate instrument in the copying process for which his book is input. You claimed you wouldn’t copy it and therefore he let you read the book for entertainment or other purposes only.

Ownership of the other person in this sense is very narrow in scope and is not tantamount to slavery, forced labor, or anything of the sort. You are not required to do anything but merely to refrain from doing something.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 3:03 AM

Sasha,

I also agree that all this talk about how the rights of the owner of the innovative object must be violated in order to satisfy the “needs” of others to be straight forward collectivist argumentation.

I see that your examples are clearly designed to illustrate this and have no idea some others are not getting that point. What on earth do the needs of poor dieing Africans have to do with the property rights of others. They are free to do whatever they want with their own resources and a copyright holder not allowing them to use his resources for copying does not violate their freedoms in the least.

It no more violates their rights than me not providing the contents of the following sentence in these empty quotes. ” “. That was the cure for cancer and I don’t see how my not providing it in any way restricts anyones freedom to do what they want with their property. Even if they have the ingredents, which consist of an overripe banana, toe nail clippings, and a dog in heat. Sure people will die but that’s not the issue. They are dying right now because I refused to sell my house, move into a hut and send them the excess cash too. My not acting or not letting them copy my stuff in no way violates their rights, and forcing me to help them certainly would violate mine.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 3:16 AM

Actually Brian Macker I have read articles to which Sasha Radeta is talking about. Namely the Big Bad Pharmaceutical Companies are using patents to protect their medicines, not copyright. This makes a big difference as patent are a monopoly on an idea and DO prevent any copies per se. In other words you are not allowed to create your own product from original ideas and materials. Hence these articles were talking The Big Bad Pharmaceutical Companies were suing African governments because they were importing cheaper generic Indian-made medicine. Hence the The Big Bad Pharmaceutical Companies were using international agreements on patents to keep their monopoly status whilst depriving the poor from getting cheaper alternatives.

A sad example for the existence of patent right indeed.

Posted by: Sam at December 27, 2006 3:41 AM

It matters exactly how the Indian company came to learn how to make the medicine. Did they steal a sample or not.

Seems to me that in a private market the hospitals and doctors trained under a particular medical association would have already agreed to any intellectual property issues on this. There is even the possibility that they would agree among themselves to a first inventor rule.

Of course, if the India company was able to develop this completely independently and there is credible evidence that they did so then I see no reason why they couldn’t sell.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 8:54 AM

Unfortunately Brian Macker I don’t have any sources for such articles. But I do nonetheless believe patents creates total monopoly on a product and forbids ANY copies at all. Certainly in the field of medicine this is dangerous.

Posted by: Sam at December 27, 2006 8:59 AM

Fred,

“…ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.”

“Do I have to point out the blatant contradiction?”

Actually it’s not a contradiction. The idea is instantiated in the physical object. In fact ideas do not exist in this world unless instantiated in physical objects like your brain, a book, or an item exhibiting the idea.

Ideas in this sense can exist without any conscious knower. For instance, the sweet pea uses coiled tendrils as shock absorbers at it’s points of attachment to other plants. This idea of using coiled spring shock absorbers was instantiated in the plant (an in it’s genes) without any “knower”. Ideas are informational and that can be carried in many ways in this world. But always there is a physical object involved (light being considered physical also).

Because the information is carried in the attributes of the object and objects can have similar attributes the same information can be carried by multiple objects. When an object carries such information it is an instantiation of an idea.

Since the attributes of the object are part of it one owns them too. So one owns the instantiation of the idea as inherent in that object when one owns that object wholly. It’s quite possible that someone else also owns the idea as instantiated in another object.

One doesn’t own the “free floating” or platonic idea. That’s just an abstraction that really doesn’t exist and in fact one based on a false philosophy.

I think patent law is wrong in that it grants ownership over the platonic. Copyrights properly implemented do not suffer from such flaws. All that anyone owns with copyright law is the instantiations of the idea.

 

 

 

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 9:13 AM

Brian Macker,

“…They are dying right now because I refused to sell my house, move into a hut and send them the excess cash too. My not acting or not letting them copy my stuff in no way violates their rights, and forcing me to help them certainly would violate mine.”

That is an absolute crock, and I find that deeply offensive. No one is coercing you to sell your house or buy a hut because we are all implicitly assuming that your rights and dignity as a person are just as equal as anyone elses. In addition, no one even forces you to do R&D; or provide us with the formula for a pill for AIDS or Cancer. But you know what, people are smart, they observe the world around them and they figure things out.

If an African watches you use a pulley to lift a large block of stone, then he goes off and uses a pulley to lift his friend out of the river. Are you saying that you can own that idea, after all, I presume at one time a pulley was patentable too. Are you saying that you have the right to come along and cut that rope because usage of that pulley is your property. WRONG! Doing that will make you nothing more than a liar about what is your property and a cold blooded murderer. As someone whom I presume loves property and liberty, you should be ashamed at becoming so easily duped in the name of phony state imposed property rights.

 

 

 

Posted by: David C at December 27, 2006 9:27 AM

Cosmin,

“Is it your position that the ab machine company can come and shut me down?”

Sure but it depends on the contract you have with the parties involved. If the cable company required you to sign a document before you had access to the channel then sure. Such contracts could also be required before walking into a store, opening a catalog, etc. You would be considered a trespasser unless you agreed to such. Any information you gained in the process of trespass is not rightfully yours.

There is no reason why in an anarchist style society this might not be done in a more economical way. For instance, you might as a member of a religious organization, protection agency or some such other affiliation agree to obey certain rules regarding IP. Then the mere mention of the fact that you are an X would be tantamount to claiming you are “covered”.

I don’t see under such a system every owner of property wouldn’t insist that any visitors be a member of some such vetting organization prior to allowing you on their property.

I’ve very often said, “Be careful what you wish for” to anarchists and libertarians. It’s quite possible a libertarian society would be much more restrictive in nature than our current one.

You might be required to have certain affliations prior to being allowed anywhere, or to buy anything. I certainly wouldn’t want an uninsured driver tooling around on my private road. I wouldn’t want to hire someone to work on my property who wasn’t properly insured. However people might go further and require additional obligations before allowing someone in. Like being covered by an IP contract.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 9:30 AM

David C,

Why on earth would you find that offensive?
Please tone it down a little since I don’t think anything I said warranted such abusive language. You don’t even understand my position and you are getting hot under the collar. Maybe more retorically than with real emotion but you are expressing yourself as if you are really angry. I hope not.

It is most certainly true that forcing me to sell my house and move into a hut so that Africans can have money for food would be a violation of my rights. I never said that such a situation was actually occuring and I don’t see how you got that out of what I wrote.

As a matter of fact my society does impinge on me in similar ways. I’m in the USA. When I do sell my house they do tax me on the profits and do send part of the money over to Africa to support AIDS programs. Thanks President Bush.

“If an African watches you use a pulley to lift a large block of stone, then he goes off and uses a pulley to lift his friend out of the river. Are you saying that you can own that idea …?”

I never said I could own the idea. Neither did the other fellow. I could certainly cover the pulley in such a way that it was hard to tell what was going on inside. Anyone I hire to thread or repair the pulley could be covered by contract.

Patent law as currently written is NOT supportable using such natural rights theory.

My beliefs are a little more sophisticated that what I have revealed. There are circumstances where one can break such rules without violating anyones rights. Like if I attempt to use my copyright to act in a criminal way or hide my criminal activities. If I invent the gun and then use it to violate rights then there is no reason you need to respect my property rights in the gun.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 9:45 AM

Also, I don’t see how one “figures out” what’s in a pill by just looking at it. One would have to go trespass in a very intrusive way in order to use a rivals pill to develop your own “generic” version.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 11:00 AM

Sam, You are correct in saying the following.

Unfortunately Brian Macker I don’t have any sources for such articles. But I do nonetheless believe patents creates total monopoly on a product and forbids ANY copies at all. Certainly in the field of medicine this is dangerous.

As Sasha and I have both pointed out, we are not justifying patent law as written.

I wasn’t making any claims about patents. I think patents step over certain lines that make them rights violations but only under limited circumstances. I came into this conversation late and was assuming that we were using this “Africa” example as a hypothetical. Hypothetically one could protect ones intellectual property rights in drug development via copyright-like contracts.

That doesn’t mean that is what the companies actually have done. There are only upsides to the current system from the point of view of someone who wants to freeload off the inventor of an idea. Copyrights are potentially eternal and do not require anyone to tell you how they actually did something. Patents are limited to a short timeframe and require the publication of the precise details of the invention.

The only people experiencing a downside from all this are individuals who are smart enough to invent the IP independently, and the people that person would have done business with (or given the idea away free to). So both the inventors right to produce and the his and others rights to free exchange are violated. If no one happens to be smart enough to figure it out independently then nobody suffers on account of another. No ones rights are violated.

The fact that someone could potentially help you where they have no obligation to does not mean you suffer on their account.

I’m not sure that in this concrete example of Africa and Indian companies whose rights were violated. That all depends if the invention was made independently without access to the original medicine.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 11:22 AM

To be more clear since I see why some of you misunderstood what I said here:

“copyright holder not allowing them to use his resources for copying does not violate their freedoms in the least”

You must take the sentence as a whole with the conditional in bold. If you remove that part then the sentence is no longer valid since as I have explained in my prior post at copyright holder can use a copyright to violate the rights of an independent inventor and his customers or beneficiaries.

An independent inventor would be someone who did NOT use the copyright holders resources to copy his invention. By resources I mean any copy in which the copyright holder has coownership rights. That includes stolen and lost medicines, samples and the like.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 11:32 AM

David C.,

BTW, I’m not terribly offended by your heated comments. I can see that Sasha had already turned to volume up here by implying you guys were a bunch of drunks. I think that was unfortunate also.

I shouldn’t have called your wording “abusive language” as that normally implies swearing. I hope you got my meaning. You were talking about me as if I was a moral degenerate.

I do think these concepts, the ones Sasha and I are trying to communicate, are easy to understand but have found them to be very hard to communicate or to even get clear in the first place. I think I did some original thinking in this area and hope that Sasha and others have learned something from me.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 11:48 AM

Fred,

Yes to this question.

Well, what if I got you on tape saying “I’m going to copy Fred’s wheel device!”? Then can I sue you for damages when you use the wheel commercially? After all, you admitted on tape to copying my idea.

 

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 12:09 PM

David C.,

As an aside on a topic you have touched on here where I disagree with some other libertarians, like Walter Block, and so possibly you too. I get the impression you are in his camp on the issue of reputation when you say this.
“Yes! I could drive down the resale value of his house too by asking people not to buy it, that is my God given right. But if I drive down the resale value of his house by burning it down, that is not a right and completely violates him. So what is the difference? both caused him financial harm. The difference is that the 2nd act deprived him use of the house that was rightly his.”
Block holds that a person does not “own” his reputation. He thus holds that blackmail should be legal. Therefore he sees it as reasonable that you ask the seller of a house to pay you money for you to refrain from activities that might damage the resell value of his house.

Your above statement could be one method to hurt the resell value. You could say to the seller, “Pay me $100 bucks or I’m going to tell people not to buy your house”. This I don’t think is objectionable. After all who cares what you think?

There are however other ways you can damage the resale value of his house without, as you say, “depriving him of the use of his house”. I don’t think this criteria that you’ve used to diffentiate between what is allowed or not is sufficient to determine if you have violated his rights.

Block seems to think that any speech about another is allowed and will never violate anothers rights with regard to reputation. Block understands that yelling fire interferes in peoples abilities to contract out theaters but not seem to get that this extrapolates to reputation.

Certainly it violates no ones rights to yell fire at a performance if there really is a fire. However falsly claiming there is a fire interferes with peoples freedom of association and trade. By lying about a fire you are fraudulenting disturbing a free association and possibly a trade of goods.

How this applies to reputation is as follows. Certainly a person, X, does not own your opinion of him. You can certainly say “I hate X”. It’s quite another thing to say “X does A” when he doesn’t in fact do so.

If you were to say the false statement “X buys homes with termite infestations, camouflage the damage with wood putty and then resells the homes to unsuspecting buyers” to a potential buyer, Y, then you would be interfering not only with the seller, X’s rights but also the buyer Y’s rights. You are using fraud to interfere with their right to free association and trade.

Now it is certainly more complex than I have stated here. There are issues of what you should have reasonably known, and what you were attempting to gain. Making such a claim flippantly might run you afoul of some kind of negligence law, but attempting to extort money via blackmail would be a more serious criminal offense.

So I think Walter Block is both right and wrong. People don’t own what people think of them but that is not what reputation is solely about. Reputation is also about the conveying of information about others. Thinking someone else did something or has some attribute is quite a different activity than communicating that belief. Furthermore, communicating a truth is different than communicating a falsehood. It in no way interferes with anothers rights if you have made a mistake about them. However it might if you communicate that mistake.

It’s worse if you communicate something that even you do not believe. In either case it can be objectively determined whether you held you came to your belief in a reasonable manner and whether you were negligent in your communication of something as fact for which you had been intellecutally negligent in arriving at.

This can be as simple as hearing Suzy claim Bill had stole something and then repeating the claim with the modification of making it factual. Saying “Suzy claims Bill stole X” is fine, but saying “Bill stole X” is negligent. Saying “I saw Bill steal X” based on Suzies report is a further fabrication that goes beyond negligence.

When Bill complains about this slander we have determined that he didn’t steal X then we can question the slanderer “How did you come to that conclusion and what were your motives in communcating it?” I think you can see where this goes. Suzy will then be questioned, perspectives compared, and a decision made. Like any issue there is no guarentee that we will always make the correct ajudication but we do have an rational and objective means to proceed.

Note: I am not using the word objective in the sense of “absolute truth” but as the antonym of subjective.

So were you thinking that you can say what you want about anybody regardless of falsity? Did you think or do you still think that any action you take to reduce the value of anothers property is allowed just so long as you don’t deprive them of their use of their property?

Note these arguments also work with regard to talent. You can lie about someones personal attributes and have wronged them, trespassed against them, in the same sense.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 12:55 PM

Sione,

I don’t think Sasha was equivocating or evading when responding to his opponents. There are more charitable explanations, like you didn’t understand him, or perhaps he didn’t explain himself well enough. I didn’t interpret his claims the way you did so I don’t think it’s his communication skills.

He’s correct in stating that he brought up property rights in farms for a different reason than you understood. He wasn’t making an improper analogy because his point wasn’t to make an analogy at all, but as he claimed to make a point about the collectivist nature of certain arguments being made.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 1:02 PM

2 points. some people here have an amazingly formalistic, perfectionist, Randist view of how the world works. They can’t imagine information getting out without some contract being triggered and traceable. But a few counterexamples suffice. Just consider the countless people today who are generally aware of the plot and characters in Disney movies, Star Wars, Star Trek, Romeo and Juliet, and the like–without ever necessarily having seen it. You don’t have to hold in your hands a tangible owned/licensed thing to get information; someone can just tell you, or you can glean it from what you heare.

2. Consider the literal example of a candle, which was Jefferson’s example of the problems with IP. Let’s say Grog invents fire. He shares it with Blog, on the condition Blog not share it with anyone else. That way Grog can sell to others tickets to sit by the fire and keep warm at night. If Blog gives the fire to others, Grog is deprived of this earning opportunity.

Now, Blog agrees to this, but runs off and lights the walking sticks being used by a passing group of travelers. They are very excited to have this fire.

Soon, the news of this fire spreads like, well, wildfire. Soon cavemen all over the continent have fire. all started from this one spark of Grog’s. Now Grog is celebrated as the inventor of fire, but pats on the back is not what he wanted. He wanted to get money for tickets to warm by his exclusive fire; but he’s not selling any anymore. So alternatively, he wants a reasonable licensing fee of 1% from all fire-users out there. If they don’t pay, he will forcefully restrain them.

Now, befuddled Sasha simply can’t realize that in her talking about third parties, he has to either side with Grog here, or not. If he does, then he is leaving libertarianism. If he does not, the possibility of contractual copyright dissipates. He cannot realize this–too stupid or dishonest, not sure.

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella at December 27, 2006 4:46 PM

Let me write a parody of that response.

2 points. some people here have an amazingly formalistic, perfectionist, Randist view of how the world works. They can’t imagine property being stolen without some clues being found and traceable.

 

Consider today the countless people living on land that was expropriated from the proper owners. You don’t have to get this property from someone who has a proper land title. They can just give it to you after they have stolen it. Like we did to the Indians who had not proper titles.

Suppose Indian Grog owns a piece of land without a ny title but then rents it to Blog with a 50 year lease who then violates the agreement by sharing dividing the land amongs several others without paying Grog. Soon many others move in and Grog is powerless to assert his original ownership.

Think this is ridiculous well read Hernado De Soto, this even happens to people with written titles.

Grog returns to find he has been usurped.

Now befuddled Stephen can’t simpling realise that any talk third parties he has to side with Grog here or not. If he does then he is leaving libertarianism (after all any realistic action to restore Grog is going to harm individuals who had no idea they were stealing). If he does not, the possibility of contractual property rights dissipates. He cannot realize this–too stuipd or dishonest, not sure [which].”

That was fun. You will notice in the italics I make explicit an analogous issue which Stephan leaves unstated in his argument. He never explains why Sasha is leaving libertarianism land.

I think Stephan is making the invalid assumption that Sasha (or me for that matter) thinks that one right is as easy to protect as the next. It’s certainly more easy to protect your property rights in something you carry around with you all the time than something you have to leave behind. Same goes for IP. Some is easier to protect than others. That doesn’t mean the concept is invalid.

In fact it is implicit in the fact that even in the case of “fire” I could jealously maintain my invention if I believed that by sharing it I would no longer be able to keep it a secret. I could at least maintain my comparable advantage that way. I could build my fire where others could not reach it and then guard it as with any other property. People could still try to steal it but I have made it harder.

This is discounting the silliness of his example, the “invention of fire” is not the mere propagation of it. In reality the “invention of fire” is actually the ability to produce it at will. I can certainly hide the method by which I do so.

Eventually most inventions will be stolen and some sooner than others. The same goes for land and other property of a durable enough nature. The durability of the invention comes from it’s ability to be replicated.

As far as I’m concerned it’s a big “so what?”. Rights can be violated. That doesn’t make them invalid. Enforcing your rights takes resources. Again that doesn’t make them invalid.

Stephen makes this into a false dicotomy. Either Sasha agrees completely with Stephen or he’s leaving libertarianism. Nonsense, maybe he just doesn’t think the fact that people can violate rights effects the existence of those rights.

I think the last sentence of his post suffers from the same bad reasoning. The only two possibilities given are that Sasha is stupid or dishonest. No consideration of other possibilities like that Sasha is honestly mistaken, knows something Stephan has not taken into consideration, has been misunderstood, or the like.

I tend to get pissed went people misrepresent my positions to attack them. It’s intellectually dishonest. In reading the thread I saw people appearing to do that and it seemed that Sasha got upset and flippant. I don’t say that was right but I don’t know the history on this topic either. I think it was unfortunate that he let himself get riled as I’m not sure the misrepresentations were intentional.

I went to great lengths to make myself clear here and I think Sasha did too. Nowhere in our arguments is there any requirement that protection of copyrights be enforcible in all cases where they are legitmate. In fact Sasha when out of his way to point out that for some items (like novels) it is much easier to prove IP trespass.

The example of fire propagation has to be on the exact opposite extreme in terms of inability to prove origination. Fire doesn’t even have a definite shape. Furthermore it is created spontaeously in the environment. I hardly expect that Sasha would think one could copyright what is a natural reaction. One can certainly try to prevent people from propagating your own fire but without a monitoring mechanism it’s next to impossible to prove a violation.

BTW, even in this extreme case Grog can potentially obtain damages from Blog and potentially trace the propagation of that particular fire to a certain degree to assess damages, and stamp out fires of people who are proven to have gotten their fire via Blog. I don’t see how Sasha’s siding with Blog on this is in any way anti-natural rights. If it’s anti-libertarian well so much the worse for libertarianism, perhaps libertarianism is not compatible with natural rights.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 6:02 PM

Some of these other utilitarian arguments can also be disposed of easily. Like the claim

“# If a researcher looses a monopoly on one patent, but in turn gains access to 10 million other patents – then that is a net gain for invention and for business, not a net loss”

 

If there is so much gains to be had for such a tradeoff then surely the market allows for people to organize voluntarily along these lines. In fact being a member of IEEE is an example of this. No reason that copyright sharing organizations could not evolve. The organizations membership terms could allow for derivative patents also.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 6:12 PM

The blockquotes around my parody were misplaced. The were suppose to end where I said “that was fun”.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 6:15 PM

Brian

You are making mistakes. Perhaps it’s you who do not understand.

Sasha introduced poorly constructed analogy and later denied he’d done so. He avoided addressing premise and principles and, at the time, evaded directly answering what had been asked of him.

Turning now to the example of Africans becoming sick and dying. You appear to hold the opinion that in order to save themselves the Africans have no right to copy and manufacture drugs or other therapies discovered, patented or copyrighted by Western pharmas. You’re well wrong there. Actually they do have such a right.

This is an ethics of emergency situation. In order to save their very lives the Africans can and should act. The question is, do the Western pharmas have the right to act to kill the Africans by preventing them from copying, manufacturing and utilising the drugs/therapies? Answer that!

Ethics of emergency is an interesting topic in philosophy. It relies on an existant hierarchy of thought (hence as it is a sub-set of a system of thought it should not be used in an attempt to derive an entire philosophical system- common error). Consider that rights are a specific recognition of attributes. They are a principle and as such are contextual. They too rely on an established hierarchy for their derivation. You should not make the mistake of applying them outside their context. Worth study.

Sione

Posted by: Sione at December 27, 2006 6:31 PM

Another point.

The case for copyright is not established by claiming that the nature of certain arguments opposing it are communist or collectivist. To make the case for copyright requires actually making a case for copyright.

Sione

Posted by: Sione at December 27, 2006 6:39 PM

Sione,

“Sasha introduced poorly constructed analogy and later denied he’d done so. He avoided addressing premise and principles and, at the time, evaded directly answering what had been asked of him.”

I read it and I disagree. It was obvious from the first post where he was going with it. He then explicitly explained himself further. Who are you to decide what his purpose was? I think he is the best witness to what he was thinking when he wrote it.The “net gain” argument is obviously a utilitarian argument. There are several ways to dispose of it. Sasha chose one obvious method.

I think it is an established principle of natural rights that we don’t force people to make choices based on utilitarian grounds. In fact, natural rights theory is in the deonlogical category which is considered by most to be antithetical to utiliarian philosophy.

You cannot argue that a natural right can’t exist because people on the whole would gain from it. It might be that overall utility would be higher if men were allowed to drug women and rape them while they are unconcious using condoms. That doesn’t mean it’s right.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 6:51 PM

Sione,

“The case for copyright is not established by claiming that the nature of certain arguments opposing it are communist or collectivist.”

No kidding but it sure blows a hole in the other guys argument.

“To make the case for copyright requires actually making a case for copyright.”

Which has been done in parallel. You can’t be serious in your implied claim that no argument has been made for copyright. Frankly, at this point unless you have some whopper of an explanation for this I’m afraid I’m not going to have much respect for your honesty. You actually think Sasha didn’t make a case at all?

I don’t think either of your truisms are applicable to Sasha.

Here’s a truism for you that is at least applicable to your last post.

A complex argument cannot be refuted by mentioning a single counterpoint and then implying that was the only point made and the rest of the argument never existed.

 

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 7:05 PM

Sione,

You have absolutely zero basis for assuming my level of knowledge regarding the ethics of emergencies. I suggest you take my prior statement to heart. I’ll repeat it.

“My beliefs are a little more sophisticated that what I have revealed. There are circumstances where one can break such rules without violating anyones rights.”

 

The ethics of emergency do not neccesarily derive in the way you may believe, nor under the criteria you have set. Might just be the theory you like most is wrong. Might just be that your criteria for these valid emergency situations are wrong on that account.

Even when someone is in dire circumstances and they do meet the proper criteria there is an obligation of restitution to the violated party. If not then we can make slaves of others based on continuing emergencies.

I’ve written a fairly long comment on the web (over at catallarchy.net) about this topic that I could point you to if you’d care to read it. One commenter remarked about it:

“Brian, really excellent post. Too bad it is tucked away at the end of a long thread. It really should be on top somewhere.”

 

I don’t think that Africans have met the neccessary criteria that would allow their actions to be considered in harmony with extended natural rights theory. If they were in harmony it would be criminal for anyone to prevent them from alleviating their distress.

Here are some (not all) of the criteria these Africans violate with respect to American pharma companies.
1) They are not likely to be able to repay the people they are trespassing against.
2) They do not meet the criteria of proximity.
3) They may not have met the criteria of taking reasonble risks.
4) There situation does meet the criteria of being time critical.
5) The taking does not put the donor at appreciable time critical risk himself. I’m not sure the answer to this. Seems that the argument is for a continuous expropriation that does indeed endanger the existence of the company in that country.

Believe me I’ve had extensive arguments with other libertarians on the “Good Samaritan” issue and many accuse me of not being a libertarian based on my positions.

My position would be that if the Pharma companies had stocks of medicine in the African country or a actual presence there (that would satisfy proximity), and if the Africans had a way to repay them (insurance, charity, etc), and if their contraction of the desease was based on reasonable behavior then one could hold the pharma company criminally liable if it were to forcibly prevent the said victims from getting their hands on medicine.

That position has me in hot water with other liberarians. Notice I said it’s criminal not to provide the physical medicine and not merely the information on how to produce it. I would further argue that they would have a obligation to temporarily provide the know how. This is all temporary and contingent on repayment.

To put it in a more familiar scenario. If you are lost in the woods and stumble on my property you can take the minimum food and shelter neccesary to save yourself regardless of my wishes so long as you there is a reasonable expectation you can pay me restitution, and you advertise the fact you owe me.

Now if I am at my cabin and a reasonable person would hold that I can do without whatever you eat and that you are most likely able to repay me then it would be criminal for me to refuse to help you. If I blocked your access using my gun and you starved, or I just plain shot you to protect my property then I would be the criminal and not you.

I won’t explain how I derived these criteria as natural rights from the nature of man but I will say that it is my claim that I have done so.

I think if you expect that of me, to explain everything I know, then you are asking way too much of a comment section. I needs book length treatment. Furthermore, don’t assume I’m unfamilar with something till I tell you something about it. It’s really presumptuous of you to do so. I don’t care if your an expert in an area. I’m an original thinker and you may just not be familiar with my ideas.

As I’ve said above. If such natural rights are contrary to Libertarianism well so much the worse for libertarianism.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 27, 2006 8:02 PM

Actually B. Macker I think most people over time have agreed that murder means to actively kill whereas to refuse life saving means isn’t. Hence direct euthanasia tends to be illegal whereas people have the right to refuse life-saving or life-prolonging medicine. This is also known as passive euthanasia. Therefore under traditional property-rights law if I found a starving person raiding my fridge and I shoot him dead, then I would be have justified as other person would be seen as a trespasser and a thief. Or likewise I could let starving person, begging for food outside my yard, die by refusing food without getting charged. Though everyone would probably not want to have anything to do with me afterwards!

Posted by: Sam at December 27, 2006 8:29 PM

Brian —

you’re confusing immorality with illegality.

> Notice I said it’s criminal not to provide
> the physical medicine

It is immoral to withold available medicine from a seriously ill man who’ll die without it.

It cannot be made illegal without making mockery of freedom. Placing obligation on anyone who didn’t do any wrong, against his will, is the same as enslaving him. Which is way more serious crime than refusal to help could ever be.

In any case, I refuse to give charity to anyone who demands it. Go sue me.

Regarding the “lost in the woods” scenario – it is possible for a strict libertarian to knowingly violate other’s rights by presuming that that other will accept the offered compensation making the transaction voluntary post-factum. The presumption can be wrong, though, so anyone making that presumption must be prepared to stand trial.

Shooting of someone who refuses to leave is quite different, though – there’s no longer any way for a trespasser to presume the owner will not mind. So he either leaves when the intentions of the owner are made clear, or violently resists the removal (in which case he’s shot for being violent trespasser, and not for helping yourself).

If someone just shots another person who wandered to his property without any reason to think that the trespasser intends to do grave harm immediately, he is guilty of extracting compensation way in excess of the aggression committed by the trespasser.

And, no, if I have a store of food and you try to gain access to it because you starve, and I don’t let you – I’m not guilty of you getting starved. You brought it to yourself by your own actions (not making sufficient provisions – or just plain being an asshole in trying to steal instead of politely asking for help). And I may have a reason to think that I need that food for my own family to survive – which I unconditionally value more than your well-being.

So don’t try that trick with me, or you’ll become one very dead original thinker.

Posted by: averros at December 27, 2006 8:52 PM

Brian Macker,

People like Sione understood my arguments just fine… They just choose to continue with misinterpretations in order to create an appearance of a debate.

David C will keep assuming that someone who is obligated by copyright will just sell him a used book without any copyright contract, “in international waters’ : ) He just wants to provide a response, no matter how absurd it is. That kind of nonsense will continue no matter how many times I refute it.

People like Stephan Kinsella will keep using “invention of fire problem” as their pseudo-argument against copyright contract, in spite of the fact that you can never prove that someone did not discover fire accidentally, or on their own. Products like these would never be a subject of copyright – and he knows it. He just pretends he created a counter-argument so that good people who don’t bother to read 100 responses may assume he had something to say. Oh… by the way – I responded to their “third party” nonsensical “arguments” more than they could count and they still dare to mention it again. It is hard for them to accept that tort liability could apply to those who create damages for a side in contract… and that there is a horrible difficulty of defending yourself from trespass when you are caught making profits with someone else’s property. But Stephan Kinsella will ignore all this and keep soothing his aching ego by pretending he is still creating some arguments.

—–

I don’t have time to read all these responses, but I saw that this discussion has taken a turn toward the issue of “limited privilege in cases of necessity.” No matter what position you take regarding this matter – it has nothing to do with the validity of free-market contracts in all other cases. Book authorship, for example, is normally not a situation in which someone’s life depends on it – and it does not invalidate copyright as a voluntary, free market relationship that regulates use of someone’s product and specifies damages (or entitlements) in cases of trespass.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 27, 2006 10:36 PM

Sasha,

People like Stephan Kinsella will keep using “invention of fire problem” as their pseudo-argument against copyright contract, in spite of the fact that you can never prove that someone did not discover fire accidentally, or on their own. Products like these would never be a subject of copyright – and he knows it.

This is just a lie; by “copyright” Sasha means something unknown to date and defined by the advocates of this idiosyncratic and sui generis right, since they say they do *not* mean by it patents–the institution that covers inventions now–nor modern copyright, which does not cover inventions at all. Instead they mean some novel form of de facto property right created somehow by people stamping the word “copyright” on the outside casing of “inventions” they are “selling” to others–despite the legion of state-created rules and court rulings needed to try to come up with a workable way to adequately define a particular “invention”. They assert this “contract copyright” mode of invention-protection would work… and then they assert that mystified outsiders know exactly waht it would and would not cover. Funny. Nice.

The truth is there is no reason in principle fire itself could not be an invention. Sasha does not here even attempt to show why it would not be. He just waves his hand and assumes it’s not, to avoid an obvious counterexample.

He just pretends he created a counter-argument so that good people who don’t bother to read 100 responses may assume he had something to say. Oh… by the way – I responded to their “third party” nonsensical “arguments” more than they could count and they still dare to mention it again. It is hard for them to accept that tort liability could apply to those who create damages for a side in contract…

It is ridiculous and dishonest for you to keep trotting out this nonsense. It is simply amateur and confused. Your little internal amateur-legal universe has it that if a third party uses an idea in the public domain that some party to a contract should not have released, that the third party is committing a tort somehow. This is not only question-begging, not only obviously unlibertarian–but stupid.

and that there is a horrible difficulty of defending yourself from trespass when you are caught making profits with someone else’s property.

Ding ding ding! question-begging, anybody?

 

 

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella at December 27, 2006 11:18 PM

Again, Stephan is resorting to some childish name-calling, without offering any ideas or substance. He now talks about “the legion of state-created rules” even though Rothbard was totally against this and he showed why this system is inefficient and unnecessary. He now insinuates that perhaps the greatest enemy of the state is actually statist, and that all these wonderful collectivists on this blog are somehow libertarian.

Of course, he has a difficult time to prove how contractual copyright would not hold in a free market, since it would be a voluntary agreement that restricts the use of some private property. He is enraged by the fact that his “third party” objection was refuted by the simple application of tort law, so now he completely lost control… Kinsella also has a hard time by the fact that the only problem with patents is to the extent that they go beyond copyright – because they punish independent discoveries that are not replicas of someone else’s product, but a coincidental product of same reasoning. That’s too confusing for Stephan Kinsella, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he falsely assumes one more time that you could have a copyright on fire – or that the “third party” could simply violate someone else’s contract.

I calmly accept all of Stephan’s name-calling, because I understand his frustration… but if he finally understood the economic definition of scarcity (among many other things he encountered in our previous discussions that produced this “bad blood” between us) – it was all worth it!

Many regards and I appreciate everyone’s time and energy.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 27, 2006 11:59 PM

“Ding ding ding! question-begging, anybody?”

Question about what? About the fact that if I get caught with your personal laptop computer, while trying to sell its commercial use, I will have a difficult time proving that I just found it in a place where you likely did not intent to put it and look for it afterwards – if you on the other hand claimed that it was stolen or even misplaced (and I did not allow to find it by taking it). Would I get myself into such commercial endeavor, knowing the risk of theft claim, which could result in huge damages from violations of copyright? Do you even need to ask a question like that? On the other hand, if that item was misplaced and not lost, than no controversy exists and finder would be prevented from using it in any way (unless the person who misplaced it demonstrated negligence). Should I even explain why or should I not insult anyone’s intelligence?

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 12:30 AM

One thing I know for sure: anyone who posts things like “I’m an original thinker” is not ever going to post anything worth reading. (Usually this is the sort of person who thinks up wonderful ideas like blowing up the moon to change the earth’s orbit and thereby improve the weather)

AFAICT, this whole thread is about Sasha, and now Brian, confusing property with selling stuff.

Posted by: Peter at December 28, 2006 1:01 AM

Peter,

I am not confusing anything. “Selling stuff” implies seller’s ownership over stuff that is sold. Allowing only a personal use of someone’s product (in exchange for money and title on specified damages) and contractually restricting its commercial use – is what confuses you. You didn’t reach that far in analysis of how private property rights apply to our lives, especially in terms of contracts.

By the way, are you the same Peter who claimed to that Rothbard, if he were alive to read this thread, would say that he was wrong on his basic application of private property rights? The same Peter who compared Stephan “Scarcity” Kinsella to Mises and Rothbard? No further comments.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 1:21 AM

Sasha

Come now! You have not answered me in any detail at all. Careless use of terms such as “self-evident” or “common sense” are reason for concern. That’s when the bullshit detector alarm activates.

Copyright is not “self-evident” in that it cannot be derived and validated ostensively. It is an idea that relies on a deductive process of thought to establish. That means it may be that the derivation you use contains errors of logic or even falsehood. Similarly, a relationship between copyright and real (or chattel) property is certainly not proven “self-evidently”, but, if the feat is possible at all, could only be accomplished by application of deductive logic referent to reality. Again, there may well be errors in your approach. I’m interested in finding out more to see if this is the case. Examining essentials could be a good way to resolve the issue. As for “common-sense”, in your recent post to me the term was employed in such as way as to avoid consideration of premise, definition, derivation and validation- a common enough polemic technique, although hardly sensible. It establishes nothing. Mere puff. You should avoid doing that. Anyway, let’s stick to the topic and see where this goes.

You write: “If you own something, you have a right to sell it or contractually arrange someone else’s use of it.”

OK. That seems fair enough. The statement relies on some un-stated premise. To have the “rights” you mention first it is necessary to have ownership. Fine. Secondly, the “it” to which you refer must be property. That is, it is an entity that can be owned by an individual. You agree? If so, there are some other questions that should be asked. We can investigate some of them as we go. For the moment, let’s consider your example of what can be subject to copyright.

According to you, painting a store in a certain shade of yellow does not qualify for copyright protection whereas writing a book does. What does that mean? It means that some ideas or product thereof are “property” and some are not. The differentiator is supposed to be a matter of proving beyond reasonable doubt that one has independently “discovered” something (!)*. In practice it means that relatively complex “discoveries” are property while relatively simple ones are not (since they can’t be proved to be the “property” of an individual beyond reasonable doubt). The separation is arbitrary. Interestingly the test (b-r-d) is relative. Another problem we can get to later. For now I’m interested in that arbitrary division.

*It also means that discoveries such as E=mc2 are copyrightable. That’s a problem in itself.

At this point I reckon it’d be a great opportunity for you to explain how you’d go about deriving from first principles your copyright idea given the apparently arbitrary distinction you make between that which is copyrightable and that which is not. You need to state premise, definitions and proceed logically. Consider also the derivation of what conditions must be met for something to be regarded as property.

What you do not need to do is buggerise around introducing faulty analogy, critique of competing arguments and baseless claims (like “I already answered this in great detail” because you have yet to so do). First principles remember.

Sione

Posted by: Sione Vatu at December 28, 2006 3:56 AM

Gosh Brian you do have such an inflated view of yourself. Gotta love the I-know-more-than-I’m-tellin-ya’ll-so-I-must-be-right approach. It goes well with the &-I-aint-telling-you-what-I-know-either nonsense. What sort of soft cock idiocy is that? Vacuous. Intellectually weak. You need to do better!

My “assumption” (your term) about your knowledge about ethics of emergency is based on your somewhat shallow treatment of the African pharmacology case. Among other things you neglected the emergency aspect. I drew your attention to it. My comments were general and intended to warn you that a case for the Africans to copy pharmaceuticals can be made on the basis of ethics of emergency. BTW that’s only one argument, there are others (such as invalidity of copyright/ patenting etc.) but emergency will do for now.

After some puffery and ego primping you eventually get down to business with this statement:
“Even when someone is in dire circumstances and they do meet the proper criteria there is an obligation of restitution to the violated party.”

The obligation of restitution exists within a certain context. A dying man has no need to consider it at the time of his dire emergency. He may consider it later on when (or if) the emergency has passed. He is at all times restricted to act within his resources and abilities.

You wrote:
“I don’t think that Africans have met the necessary criteria that would allow their actions to be considered in harmony with extended natural rights theory. If they were in harmony it would be criminal for anyone to prevent them from alleviating their distress.”

Whether you think a dying man/men in an emergency meet your “criteria” or not is irrelevant. Your “extended natural rights theory” is likely wrong anyway. In the case where a man or men are facing death they can and should act to avoid it. In this case the question is whether some pharma has a right to prevent them from taking the necessary action (copy, manufacture and distribute the drugs/therapy). I note you evaded answering this question directly although it appears your answer would be, “No, let them suffer and die.” Further, I note your premise that molecular structure (as opposed to specific molecules) can be owned as property.

You wrote:
“To put it in a more familiar scenario. If you are lost in the woods and stumble on my property you can take the minimum food and shelter neccesary to save yourself regardless of my wishes so long as you there is a reasonable expectation you can pay me restitution, and you advertise the fact you owe me.”

Not correct. There may be an obligation for an attept at restitution if such action is possible but if the individual concerned can’t provide it, then it can’t be provided (he may be so debilitated or impoverished after his ordeal that he cannot make restitution). The test of a reasonable expectation of payment is erroneous. Your additional requirement for advertising is baseless and silly (you made that bit up didn’t you). The test of survival in an emergency is the measure.

You wrote:
“Now if I am at my cabin and a reasonable person would hold that I can do without whatever you eat and that you are most likely able to repay me then it would be criminal for me to refuse to help you. If I blocked your access using my gun and you starved, or I just plain shot you to protect my property then I would be the criminal and not you.”

Which is why I would be completely correct to execute you should you provide a threat to my continued existence as a living human being. I’d be sorry to have to do it though.

—

There is a problem with people arguing from hidden premise, principle, context and definition as you are attempting to do. For example, terms like “natural rights” can mean many things. In this case I know not the specific details of what it is you are raving on about since all you care to do is claim that you know something or other about something you label “natural rights” and something else you call “extended natural rights”. In the end your argument boils down to ego stroking and unsupported opinion in equal measure. Trivial. To be taken seriously you need to do much better. Lift your standard.

Sione

Posted by: Sione at December 28, 2006 4:10 AM

Is the issue of copyrights/patents about the inventor about getting an ongoing reward for doing something?

My scenario:

Suppose Andrew develops the cure for cancer but has no business sense whatsoever and puts the cure on the shelf to gather dust. Then Bert, who isn’t an inventor but has good business sense, visits and upon finding Andrew has the cure for cancer, gives $50 for the vial and goes home. Bert then with investor funding and stuff builds a large factory and distribution centre with which he mass-produces vials and sells them cheaply to the masses. Does it not stand to reason that Bert is the hero because he gave everyone the chance to be cured of cancer? Whereas Andrew should only get a one-off fee since he couldn’t do anything with his invention?

Hence are patents and copyrights are false because the true heroes are the mass producers and distributors of goods, whereas inventors shouldn’t get ongoing rewards for a brief moment of insight?

Posted by: Sam at December 28, 2006 4:18 AM

“Hence are patents and copyrights are false because the true heroes are the mass producers and distributors of goods, whereas inventors shouldn’t get ongoing rewards for a brief moment of insight?”

Maybe the real heroes are the workers, so maybe they should unite.

We are talking about ethics here. Natural hence objective ethics.

But this example sheds some light on a question Sione asked.

“You write: “If you own something, you have a right to sell it or contractually arrange someone else’s use of it.”

OK. That seems fair enough. The statement relies on some un-stated premise. To have the “rights” you mention first it is necessary to have ownership. Fine. Secondly, the “it” to which you refer must be property. That is, it is an entity that can be owned by an individual. You agree? If so, there are some other questions that should be asked. We can investigate some of them as we go. For the moment, let’s consider your example of what can be subject to copyright. ”

Say I thought of a novel. Word by Word. I didnt put it on paper yet, not to confuse the situation.

Does it exist?

Yes.

Who has it?

I do.

Can I do something with it?

Yes, I can forget about it, or put it ona paper or tell it to someone else.

Can someone else do something with it before I tell about it?

No. Because no one knows about it.

Does this situation means I have total control of it?

Yes.

What does ownership mean?

Having total control.

Hence I own the novel.

End of story.

Ideas can be owned.

Knowledge can be owned.

By the definition of ownership.

Keeping it away from theft is a technical issue.

And deciding on theft or independent discovery is not arbitrary.

It is just harder on IP thats all.

Posted by: ktibuk at December 28, 2006 8:25 AM

Sam,

You are not reading our arguments carefully, or you choose to create yet another false argument.

Copyrights are not about “rewards” for those people that you consider heroes. It’s about respecting contractual obligations and someone else’s property right, if that person chooses not to give you a commercial use of his item, specifying damages (in the amount of produced unauthorized copies).

But if you are concerned about rewards, use simple demand and supply analysis to figure out what will be the incentive of people to pay for new invention if they know it will become so easy to copy that supply will be enormous (prices approaching to zero). But that’s not our major issue – we’re talking about legal basis for copyright v. patents in a perfectly free-market scenario.

—-

Sione,

Finally you stop busying yourself with the attempts to prove that my statements mean something other than I said they do.

I explained the simple property right basis for making a contract that prohibits someone’s commercial use of my product. To that you only said “fair enough.” Can I now assume that you accepted the private property rights behind such contract? Now you are shifting toward the alleged problem of enforceability of copyright in a free market.

I accept that my explanation of copyright is not a “common sense” – but you simply are not telling the truth when you imply that we did not examine many alleged problems with copyright. Many attempts were made to disapprove the possibility and enforceability of such private contracts and I applied deductive logic referent to reality in order to refute all these attempts.

Also, I repeated many times that only something that can be owned can be copyrighted. That’s why I insisted that copyright pertains to restrictions in commercial use of physical property – not the “idea theft” per se. I don’t understand why you go back to that issue, since I extensively covered it on this blog.

You obviously didn’t read these discussions, but you were willing to jump to conclusions and ask the question which was answered before.

Sione said:
>>In practice it means that relatively complex “discoveries” are property while relatively simple ones are not (since they can’t be proved to be the “property” of an individual beyond reasonable doubt).

It does not have to be, since even complex discoveries can be based on well-known scientific knowledge and they can produce the same results with completely independent efforts, without unauthorized copying (the invention of radio issue and other patent controversies). On the other hand, something as primitive as a copy of Paolo Coelho’s writings can easily be proved to be an unauthorized copy, rather someone else’s identical rambling.

There is a huge difference between Kinsella’s argument of “fire invention” (which can be easily proved to be the result of some independent or accidental discovery that even occurs in nature – and some revolutionary scientific discovery.

It is not up to you to decide what truly independent discovery is and what trespass (unauthorized use) was! That is not a “problem” with copyright at all. There are many disputes about private property – but that does not mean that property should be abolished (go back to example in which Kinsella argues that he found my abandoned or lost item – and I claim that it was stolen).

It is the courts’ job to decide what the circumstances of each case are and whether there has been a contract violation.

PS
If you anything about E=mc^2 – you would know that it was not Einstein’s original idea but something based on common body of knowledge – although he had a right to “copyright” his particular writings that pertained to this formula, as he did (although some argue that even these writings should be credited to his first wife Mileva Maric, but that’s another issue). Anyway, just as in the case of radio (Tesla v. Marconi), there were several other papers that independently reached the same conclusion as Einstein’s paper – but they didn’t violate its copyright. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_priority_dispute

Is this an evidence of a problem with copyright? Not at all… It just demonstrates why patent monopoly is unjust compared to a free-market based copyright (which does not punish independent discoveries).

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 9:28 AM

Well Sasha Radeta I was just presuming that this would be the standard Libertarian AGAINST patents and copyrights. Isn’t the standard argument that Ps & Cs are false because they are a monopoly right enforced by the State, hence extortion of sorts? I was exploring whether it is the invention that is important or the mass production and distribution that put the invention into the hands of the masses. A real life example is Coca-Cola , where the inventor didn’t know what to do with the recipe and sold it for a song to someone who could do something with it. Who then gave the world Coca-Cola the first guy or the second guy?

Perhaps in a free-market scenario Ps & Cs wouldn’t be necessary if inventors had good business sense since if they had a new idea, built a company around it, would get a big head start over someone else who has to take time to figure out how the new thingy worked and take more time to create a production business to produce the new invention.

Posted by: Sam at December 28, 2006 9:56 AM

Sam,

It really has little to do with “business sense”. Even with copyrights and patents the writer or inventor could still get snookered. In fact many have.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 10:26 AM

Sione,

The subject at hand was intellectual property. Sasha, and I have addressed every point you guys have brought up on that issue. You have not been able to mount a defense and instead have become irrational. It’s quite apparent that you think you are defending some moral intuition you have but are totally unable to defend.

My character was attacked here several times. So was Sasha’s. I put up a defense against your claim that I am ignorant and now you accuse me of be arrogant. It’s quite apparent that you only wish this to degrade to the point of name calling. I don’t see how any of this name calling is supporting your arguments.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 11:06 AM

Peter,

“One thing I know for sure: anyone who posts things like “I’m an original thinker” is not ever going to post anything worth reading.”

 

LOL! Is that you way of sticking your fingers in your ears and holding your breath while screaming “I’m right!”

“AFAICT, this whole thread is about Sasha, and now Brian, confusing property with selling stuff.”

Care to actually support this ridiculous claim?

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 11:21 AM

Sione,

My “assumption” (your term) about your knowledge about ethics of emergency is based on your somewhat shallow treatment of the African pharmacology case.

We were giving it shallow treatment because it’s pretty much irrelavent. I already told you here on this thread that I was treating it as a hypothetical. We are not discussing this issue at all. Maybe you got defeated on some other thread and can let go? I haven’t a clue but it isn’t important to the topic.

“I note you evaded answering this question directly although it appears your answer would be, “No, let them suffer and die.” Feel free. Isn’t this what you’ve been doing all along. Not reading what was said, making things up an putting them in the other guys mouth, and insulting them.

Further, I note your premise that molecular structure (as opposed to specific molecules) can be owned as property.”

I said no such thing nor is it implied by what I’ve said, if you understood it.I’m going to have to disagree with Sasha. You don’t understand things fine.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 11:42 AM

Averros,
“you’re confusing immorality with illegality.”
No, I’m not. I’m discussing justice. Did you read the linked article or not? If not then don’t bother commenting. I said that this requires a lengthy treatment.

This isn’t purely about charity. Don’t get trapped by words. It’s more about freeloading than charity.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 11:54 AM

ktibuk

Interesting.

You write: “Say I thought of a novel. Word by Word. I didnt put it on paper yet, not to confuse the situation. Does it exist? Yes.
Who has it? I do. Can I do something with it? Yes, I can forget about it, or put it ona paper or tell it to someone else. Can someone else do something with it before I tell about it? No. Because no one knows about it.”

Say another person thinks up the same novel, same plot line, same characters etc. Is the novel still yours? Do do you “own” the other guy’s idea? Do you “own” the content of his brain? Or is it the case that he “owns” the content of your brain? Oh oh.

He writes it down. Do you still “own” it? He sells it. Do you “own” it then?

Moving on. You ask: “What does ownership mean? Having total control.”

So as soon as you don’t have total control you don’t have ownership. Of course, that sinks the copyright idea totally!

There is a problem with the approach you applied. It appears to reside in the nature of what property actually is and the conditions necessary for an entity to be recognised as property. Given that ideas can be generated by multiple people simultaneously and that they can independently generate the same ideas (or ideas that are very similar), can it be said that an idea is able to be owned in the sense that it is property? To support such a claim would require a thorough logical argument from first principles. That’s something I am interested in seeing (if available).

Sione

 

Posted by: Sione Vatu at December 28, 2006 12:54 PM

When people buy something, they own it. When they own it, they can do anything with it.
Sasha and Brian introduce the idea of contractual copyright or co-ownership (which is somehow not collectivisation, which they hate) in order to allow the seller to specify the allowed uses of the product.
They want the state to enforce this, because, after all, who in their right mind would agree to be bound by a contract that would abrogate against their will the use of a product they bought?
Let me clarify with an example:
Person A has Product X for sale. Person A imposes condition M as necessary to the transaction.
Person B wants Product X. Person B doesn’t want to be subject to condition M. However, Person B wants Product X. Person B promises to abide by M, while keeping his fingers crossed (knowing full well he won’t respect condition M). Person B then leaves and enjoys use of Product X.
Person A finds out person B didn’t satisfy condition M. He demands reparations.
Person B contends Person A had no right to set conditions (other than payment for acquisition) that would limit the use of Product X by Person B in the first place, and especially that Person A has no right to make use of force (his own or the state’s) to enforce any such condition.

So who is right? According to Sasha, condition M could be anything. It has to be respected simply because A imposed it, no matter how bizarre. Condition M can be: having to twist one’s own moustache while making use of Product X, or standing nude while enjoying Product X, or something else even more bizzare, such as not opening product X to understand its inner workings.
(Obviously, once Person B has this understanding, he can duplicate Product X and noone can deny Person B the right to make use of his own understandings, so Person A tries to impede acquisition of said understandings by Person B.)
Well, if Person B wants to understand the inner workings of Product X, he would obviously not voluntarily agree to abide by a condition that would deny him that. Such can thus only be enforced by government.
Sasha says B should then not buy the product. I say, since Person B doesn’t recognize the right of Person A to set such a condition, then he can very well buy the product. From his point of view, the product has no condition attached, just like those of any competing product, sold by a Person C, that didn’t impose a condition M or N.

Posted by: Cosmin at December 28, 2006 1:54 PM

Sam,

You are mistaken about libertarian argument about copyright. It has nothing to do with “rewarding” anyone’s heroes. Read more Rothbard and how copyright contracts are connected to private property right.

—-

Sione,

Are you also confused about private property rights when it comes to leasing, renting and sale of certain uses of some product? The fact that the owner contractually arranged that someone else uses his property in ways that they agree upon does not mean that he relinquishes his property right.

Anyway, that does not answer the following: how can you possibly make a contractual obligation about the purchase of some product use – and than simply decide to break your contract and “upgrade” your services. Could you just “upgrade” your services on an airline without even asking for permission?

—–

Cosmin,

You started to insult the intelligence of everyone present here.

In your absurd and irrelevant example you say that a person has a “right” to “cross his fingers” and just break whatever contract he agrees upon. Well, that is just not how it works in a free-market economy, because contracts are based on exchange of real property titles – not on some empty promises. This is the basis for the rule of law and private property rights.

If you say that you will paint my house tomorrow and give me $1 dollar now if I give you my bicycle – you cannot say tomorrow: “Oh, I crossed my fingers yesterday about painting your fence… I think that $1 is good enough for your bicycle.” Don’t you see a problem here? Now you have only one side determining the final exchange values (price) and you are totally disregarding the agreement that was achieved with other side (myself) when I gave you the property title over that bicycle. You in fact committed a fraud and theft.

The same goes with my airline services example (I dare you to upgrade to the first class for the price of the coach)… or any kind of contract… rental or labor.

You keep thinking of some bizarre conditions – and I say “YES,” people should be free to think of any bizarre conditions they want – if they find someone who is willing to satisfy them. The only thing you can’t do is to force someone to work in order to satisfy a contract (slave contracts are invalid from the beginning) – but you can insist on other compensation for undelivered services.

Do you think that by making those conditions bizarre, you are proving anything???? Bizzare is in the eye of the beholder. To me, Kelly Osbourne is totally bizzare, but to someone else she totally “rocks.” But you keep forgetting the lesion of the law of demand and supply: what prevents people from charging a million dollars for a loaf of bread. Well – demand and supply conditions prevent them from doing it. People will just walk away from such stupid seller and go to someone else. The same would likely happen to a seller in your nonsensical example. Anyway, that has nothing to do with the legal validity of free-market copyright agreements.

If you think that rent or co-ownership has something to do with collectivism you have some serious problems with your logic. Furthermore, you don’t realize that you advocate communist collectivism when you claim that people should just violate some voluntary free-market contract based on their need. You openly state that someone’s exclusive property rights over commercial use (that that person never sold away) mean nothing to you.

Not even Stephan Kinsella tried to argue something that far left – and he tried instead to prove that these completely valid contracts would be broken by some third party.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 3:47 PM

Peter> One thing I know for sure: anyone who posts things like “I’m an original thinker” is not ever going to post anything worth reading.

Where is James Redford and his “babies?”

SR> As I already explained – ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.

Your “explanation” wasn’t persuasive. It was silly. So still, it is nothing more than a bald assertion. The trouble for you is that everything depends upon this foundation. If you assert the positive, then you have to make the case.

SR> …but if he finally understood the economic definition of scarcity…

*You* saying that — it is as funny now as it was the first time.

BM> You can’t be serious in your implied claim that no argument has been made for copyright.

No persuasive (worthwhile) argument has been made. That is the distinction.

BM> You actually think Sasha didn’t make a case at all?

No, not at all. I have nothing against his idea that parties can form a private contract that by essence is one of non-disclosure/non-replication. Indeed, such private contracts occur everyday. He thinks that such contracts are binding on people not party to the contract. They aren’t.

BM> I think this is addressable … with co-ownership of the property in question.

I will simply point out that a collectivist approach to property will not be convincing to many mises.org bloggers.

BM> The idea is instantiated in the physical object. In fact ideas do not exist in this world unless instantiated in physical objects like your brain, a book, or an item exhibiting the idea.

Hey zeus eitch crisco! An idea is not instantiated in a brain. IP proponents don’t *really* care if the idea is in “someone else’s” brain. What they really want is for no one else to *act* on an idea they perceive as “theirs.” I mean, what would a judge order? “I order you to forget.” — Da Judge

Tangent:

Sam> I think most people over time have agreed that murder means to actively kill whereas to refuse life saving means isn’t.

Murder includes “actively kill;” it is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a murder conviction. Self-defense may include an “active killing,” but self-defense is not murder.

Posted by: greg at December 28, 2006 4:11 PM

I’ve written a play. It’s copyrighted so don’t try to steal it. 🙂

Avis Rental: Ok, your credit card when through. Here’s the keys to the car. You can pick it up in the back. Please return the car in a week with a full tank of gas. Check the car for damage now because we expect you to bring it back in the same condition.

 

Cosmin: Wait just a damn second there. What’s with all these conditions? I paid for the car. I own it and now I can do any damn thing I please with it.

Avis Rental:No sir you didn’t buy the car. You rented it.

Cosmin:I say I bought it since I don’t recognize your right to set such a condition as returning it in a week. From my point of view, the car has no conditions attached, just like those of any competing product, sold by a car dealer, that didn’t impose this annoying condition of returning it

Avis Rental: But sir …

Cosmin: You didn’t have the right to impose such conditions in the first place. Who in their right mind would agree to be bound by a contract that would abrogate against their will the use of a product they bought?

Avis Rental: Sir…

Cosmin: I do enjoy your prices however. Your prices are way better than Honda.

Avis Rental: But Sir you signed a rental agreement. This is a rental.

Cosmin: Sure, I promised to abide by the conditions but you didn’t bother to look behind my back.

Avis Rental: Why would I do that?

Cosmin: To see if I had my fingers crossed. I did have them crossed so you lose. LOSER!

Avis Rental: Sir, if you do not return the car in a week we will call the police.

Cosmin: I see now what you are up to. You want to use the state to enforce this! Outrageous! If you can’t enforce this yourself well then you shouldn’t be making such conditions. You can’t think I’m in my right mind to agree to conditions like that! That’s why I crossed my fingers.

Avis Rental: Look, I’m not waiting. I’m calling them right now. We’ve had these conditions in place since our companies inception. We owe it to our stockholders to enforce these conditions so they can earn a profit.

Cosmin: Stockholders?!! That’s collectivization! What are we living in Russia! You want to call the cops? I dare you!

Avis Rental: I will. Give me the keys.

Cosmin: I double dare you!

Avis Rental: Hello, is this the police. Yeah, well this is Avis Rent a Car. I just rented a car to this nut but he insists he bought it and won’t give back the keys.
It is just that silly. It’s like Cosmin has never heard of renting, leasing, joint ownership through stocks, partnerships, mineral rights, rights of way, encumberments, hunting club membership, co-ops, condominiums, preferred stocks, or stock options. If he has he thinks it’s collectivism.

I’m convinced I’m talking to an eight year old who found a book by some militia group out of Texas. Next he’ll be kiting checks and declaring that the Texas state government is unconstitutional.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 4:22 PM

What the heck is with the blockquotes on this site? Keeps stripping the end blockquote out even though it shows fine in the preview. Oh well. I’m going to stop using them.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 28, 2006 4:25 PM

Greg,

Saying that my explanation is silly does not make it so. You failed to make a single logical argument against my position, which is completely and consistently based on private property rights. It is not my goal to persuade every (differently able) individual here, since that would be an impossible task.

GREG SAID:
———
“I have nothing against his idea that parties can form a private contract that by essence is one of non-disclosure/non-replication. Indeed, such private contracts occur everyday. He thinks that such contracts are binding on people not party to the contract.”
——–

Super! You just stood against Sione’s and Cosmin’s attempts to prove that private contracts of that sort are somehow invalid.

By the same token, I never claimed that such contracts are binding on people not party to the contract. That’s a rather ridiculous lie, since I repeated many times before that third party can only be responsible for >>TORT

Greg now repeats ridiculous statement that co-ownership (I guess any partnership or renting) means “collectivism”… while, on the other hand, freedom to violate some private contracts and property use based on “needs” is not collectivism? How absurd.

What Greg cannot get over is the fact that copyright proponents do not need any of those silly notions he tries to impute them… like “owning ideas in someone else’s brain”. As Rothbard brilliantly explained – copyright is simply about creating terms of use over your physical property – in a voluntary, free-market exchange of property titles.

 

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 4:35 PM

Brian,

I enjoyed your play. These people equate property with sole proprietorship – and they think that their needs-based collectivism is “libertarian” (actually, anarcho-communists label their views as “libertarian”…. so they perhaps found some wrong pages on Google when they tried to create their argument : )

Anyway, watch for Sione now… he may try to accuse you of having something against Avis Rental.

: )

Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 4:54 PM

SR> Saying that my explanation is silly does not make it so.

LOL. Of course not. Why don’t you just restate it? That would be enough by itself. I mean, it was silly before, why not now?

Posted by: Greg at December 28, 2006 5:05 PM

Sasha, in your paint the fence plus 1$ for a bike example, you simply use barter to complicate a very simple situation. If you monetize the value of painting a fence, you realize that it is equal (in your example) to the value of a bicycle minus 1$. It is therefore considered payment for the acquisition of the bike and not a condition for the use of the bike. Hence, it is absolutely irrelevant to the debate at hand. Thank you for wasting my time.

Other than that, you keep talking about free-market copyright agreements and exclusive property rights over commercial use that I supposedly want to violate, but in order for me to violate them you have to prove that they exist!
What is this free-market copyright agreement you refer to? Who is bound by it? You say all buyers are bound buy it. If they don’t agree, then they can buy from somwhere else. What if there is noone else? Let’s say a company makes a new pill. Noone else makes it, or I’d buy it from them and there wouldn’t be a problem. I buy it. It comes with the condition that I not look at it under a microscope. I’m someone who doesn’t believe in someone else’s “right” to impose conditions on my own property, so I look at it under a microscope. Then, I make my own pills instead of ever buying them again. Now, everyone else will have an alternative to buying from the idiot who thought he could impose conditions. There is now competition. Do you think they would buy from him, knowing that they have to respect his conditions? Let the free market decide, and it will do away with your so-called free-market copyright agreement.
You’re saying that’s wrong. You’re saying I violated a condition. I see no condition. I see only a fool who thinks he can set conditions. And some fools who don’t question him, and follow his conditions until they are shown the true meaning of free market.

Bottom line is, you start your reasoning from patents. You recognize that they are a government-granted priviledge. You want to call yourself libertarian, so you want to take government out of the equation. But you want to keep the patents. WHY?
Start from scratch. Try to justify the existence of “exclusive property rights over commercial use”. You’re saying I’m trying to make them disappear. The real question is: Why are you trying to make them appear?

Posted by: Cosmin at December 28, 2006 5:18 PM

I just read your play, Brian. Hilarious. I mean it. And you’re absolutely right.

It’s sad, though. I don’t own any book I bought. I don’t own my house. I don’t own materials I bought to build an ab machine. I don’t own my clothes. I don’t own the food I eat. I just hold on to those things, for as long as I use them in the way I’m licensed to use them. Welcome to the end of property.

Don’t despair, Brian says it’s nice. You’ll have a great time!

Posted by: Cosmin at December 28, 2006 5:33 PM

LOL! Is that you way of sticking your fingers in your ears and holding your breath while screaming “I’m right!”

No, just an observation: people who go around proclaiming how much smarter they are than everybody else, how much they know, and what original thinkers they are are never smarter than everybody else, know much of anything, or think original thoughts (unless it’s of the “I am Napolean Bonaparte” variety; and even that’s not very original!). IME, all the really smart and original people over the age of 15 don’t think they’re very smart or original at all.

Posted by: Peter at December 28, 2006 7:36 PM

Sasha

You write: “I explained the simple property right basis for making a contract that prohibits someone’s commercial use of my product. To that you only said “fair enough”.”

No. You are not telling the truth. You have misrepresented the situation. That’s very naughty of you.
I responded to you using the words, “fair enough” on two occasions.
In response to your statement: “If you own something, you have a right to sell it or contractually arrange someone else’s use of it.” I wrote: “OK. That seems fair enough. The statement relies on some un-stated premise. To have the “rights” you mention first it is necessary to have ownership. Fine. Secondly, the “it” to which you refer must be property. That is, it is an entity that can be owned by an individual. You agree? If so, there are some other questions that should be asked. We can investigate some of them as we go. For the moment, let’s consider your example of what can be subject to copyright.” And so on.
What I was interested in there was the un-stated premise you relied on. We have yet to examine that aspect in detail.
In response to your statement: “The only argument one ever needs to defend copyright is following: you have a property right and logical capability to create free-market contracts that would protect them. All you need to do is to establish the terms of use and to specify that unauthorized use will result in your damages”, I wrote: “Fair enough. I have some questions. What is the property right to which you refer? What is the property exactly?”
Funny how you’ve neglected to mention the questions immediately following the words, “Fair enough.” The context of “fair enough” includes those questions. They were important. Go read them again. They were intended to steer you towards disclosure of premise and addressing the principle, which you never did. Indeed you answered along the lines of how you did not understand the question…

If you did indeed POSSESS a property right then you may well have the capability to create contracts with other individuals regarding that which is your property, that which you have rights over. At issue is whether you can establish the ownership of the entity you claim as property in the first place. Is it property? Can you own it? Do you own it? This is an issue you have equivocated over. It will need to be considered in some detail.

It is important to recall that I did not agree that you EXPLAINED anything. I certainly did not agree that you explained “the simple property right basis for making a contract that prohibits someone’s commercial use of my product.” That is something you have not yet established. And I do not concede it (yet). For one thing it depends what you mean by “my product.” It depends on what the “my product” is (among other things). It depends on context as well.

You are being evasive, deceptive and dishonest by applying what I wrote to something else entirely. You are being evasive, deceptive and dishonest by selectively dealing with portions of what I wrote to you and ignoring what it suits you to ignore. I am coming to understand why it is that Dr Kinsella identified you as a liar the other day. Why not avoid these errors? Much unpleasantness could be eliminated if you did. Surely you are not being deliberately bad.

Sasha, you ask: “Can I now assume that you accepted the private property rights behind such contract?”

Depends on context. Depends what specifically you are referring to. If you claim you can write a contract that grants rights over someone else’s property without their consent the answer would be in the negative. If you were trying to write a contract that controls non-economic entities (like, the atmosphere in totality or ownership of the moon in the present situation pertaining to space exploration/technology etc), once again the answer would be negative. If you were trying to write a contract that would necessitate an initiation of force against another party (such as organising a hit on an innocent) then likely the answer would be negative. I would not accept it. If you are trying to contract the physically impossible, once again the answer is no. Such “rights” as you would rely on, as basis for contract, would be false.

Sasha: “Now you are shifting toward the alleged problem of enforceability of copyright in a free market.”

No. Your characterisation is false (although the matter of enforceability would be a major problem- you’re right there). I’m interested in how you derive the notion of copyright from ownership of property. Then onwards toward the derivation of what conditions must be satisfied for something (an entity) to be identified and considered property in the first place. I was also intrigued by the arbitrary classification methodology you relied upon.

Sasha: “Do I need to give a definition of property?”

Yes. And you need to derive how you established it as well. This is key. It’s the way forward. You should do this now.

Sione

Posted by: Sione Vatu at December 28, 2006 8:15 PM

Brian

Stop being so precious. You’re just not as clever or as important as you seem to think.

The subject that started this thread was the admission by a patent attorney that, “Patents are intended to lure potential inventors into the business of innovation. The truth is, however, that very little is known about how patents really drive innovation.”

If you wipe your chin and reread the thread (try putting your finger on the words as you read them out loud one by one or if that’s too tough get your mom to do it for you) you’ll discover that I addressed this, admitting that in my experience patents were not that useful in driving innovation. Other factors were the motivators. Fancy that.

Subsequently the discussion evolved further towards copyright matters among other things. The suspicion is that copyright is likely as unhelpful to innovation as is patenting.

My interest in this subject is to see whether it is possible to make a water-tight case supporting patents or copyright. I rather expect that it is not possible since what has been known as “intellectual property” may not be property at all- hence couldn’t be owned in the sense that property can be.

Your efforts, don’t make the case for copyright. What you really need to do is start thinking in principle. Dealing in finite concretes on an ad hoc basis will get you nowhere. You need to identify and validate the specific principles involved. Know why? For one thing, other people can write silly little scripts, such as yours, yet construct them to lead to alternative conclusions. In the end little or nothing is achieved by that method.

On present form it is readily concluded you really have little of worth to submit and the conclusion can readily be drawn that unless you lift your game you’re not worth the time and effort to deal with.

Sione

Posted by: Sione Vatu at December 28, 2006 8:26 PM

Sasha,
In the last two blogs on this subject, you have said …

“I never said that I ‘own property in or of the ideas’ (whatever that means). I own my physical property … ”

“You may hallucinate about “idea ownership” all day long. I never advocated such thing and your messages about that nonsense only illustrate the weakness of your arguments. ”

” I never mentioned that ideas are property. You hallucinated again.”

“…ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.”

So which is it? Are ideas property or not?

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 28, 2006 9:26 PM

Greg,

It’s not my fault you demonstrated that you don’t know that “tort” is by a definition an injury -other than a breach of contract-. From the beginning of this discussion I insisted that third party is never bound by contract… but this does not mean that “third party” can ever be a license to steal! If third party trespassers were excused for causing breaches in contracts – than no contract would ever be enforceable (including simple deliveries that can also be violated by third parties) and markets would disappear. And now I should feel bad that someone like you is not convinced by my arguments. Give me a break.

—-

Cosmin,

Don’t be ridiculous. I chose an example of partial barter and partial monetary exchange simply because you chose such an example.

In your example:
Person A -> offers product X for sale at some price -> plus he asks for some service M in addition to money… Person B accepts these conditions, but then he says he changed his mind about the total price and refuses to satisfy the contract

That is absolutely analogous with my example:

Person Sasha (A)-> offers bicycle (X) for sale at $1 -> plus I ask for fence painting (M) in addition to that money…

HOW IS THIS NOT CORRECT EXAMPLE that perfectly illustrates the absurdity of your pseudo-arguments? In your example, you simply want to change the terms of your exchange unilaterally. In a sense, it is also analogous to Brian’s example, because you want the freedom to violate your specific terms of use and just to keep the full-ownership for which you did not pay. Don’t be mad at Brian – it was you who used “crossed fingers” argument as an excuse to violate terms of exchange.

Plus, you don’t own unauthorized copies of someone else’s copyrighted products, if you contractually transferred the title on them to the other side. The ownership of inputs is not disputed here.

——–

Sione,

I am terribly sorry I overestimated you, when I saw your “fair enough” comment, which was followed by some incoherent rambling that I honestly did not understand (and I pointed those out). But I only politely asked you whether you understood my simple points. You didn’t? Okay.

I want to convince that I sincerely have no intention misinterpreting any of your statements, nor evading any of your questions. I just did not want to insult anyone’s intelligence by talking about property definition, instead of more complex issues (like Kinsella’s unsuccessful attempts to show that copyright would not be enforceable – and I showed that it would, regardless of what your wishful thinking).

So your entire 5,000 blabbing can be reduced to a simple question:

– How do you define “property” and how is copyright derived from property rights?

Property is that which is legally owned by an individual or entity. Do you need a definition of “own?” Do you need a definition of “individual?”

If you legally own something, you can allow the use of that piece of property any way you want to – or you can exchange the use of your property (your service) for someone else’s property title. These exchanges are called contracts and they are the basis for markets. Copyright is based on allowing personal use of your product in exchange for property title on money and any damages in the amount of unauthorized copies. As in any contract, the third party is not an excuse for violation of contract, but if someone commits a trespass and causes this breach, than the buyer will have a tort case against him/her (which would recover that liability).

I don’t want to complicate the issue with co-ownership, since you seem to struggle with anything beyond sole-proprietorship. I will leave that to Brian Macker, since he chose that approach.

—-

Fred Mann,

You must be really desperate since you tried to find a single inconsistency in my statements. I am glad you single them out so that Brian Macker can see that I never claimed any idea-ownership. If you can also quote my perfectly consistent and clear responses on silly “what if I see it on TV and Radio” arguments, I would also appreciate that. Just keep quoting me.

: )

All of my statements are perfectly clear: you cannot own idea per se. You can only own physical property that contains some idea. You can sell that property – or you can decide to rent it under some conditions… or do whatever.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 28, 2006 10:17 PM

“All of my statements are perfectly clear…”

I guess not, since some of your statements contradict your other statements.

“… you cannot own idea per se. You can only own physical property that contains some idea.”

Is that your final answer?
It is crucial to determining whether or not the third party has acted tortiously or not.
I guess I should ask one more clarifying question —
Can you sell an idea if you don’t own it?

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 28, 2006 11:14 PM

Sasha, yet again, you modify what I said only to build a straw man you can tear down. In your reply to me, you said:
“Cosmin,

Don’t be ridiculous. I chose an example of partial barter and partial monetary exchange simply because you chose such an example.

In your example:
Person A -> offers product X for sale at some price -> plus he asks for some service M in addition to money… Person B accepts these conditions, but then he says he changed his mind about the total price and refuses to satisfy the contract”

In my example, M was a condition imposed by person A, such as the inability to study the inner workings of the device, not a service to be performed by person B. The distinction is critical. As a service to be performed by B, it would fit into the payment category. I didn’t place M there because, despite the position you would like to impute to me, I don’t view the price as negotiable after the fact. Rather, M being a condition, it fits in the value received by B for having paid the agreed-upon price.
My argument is that any such condition has no place in a property exchange transaction.
Why is that so? Simply because when something is your property, you are free to do anything you want with it. When you need a license to do something, it’s because you don’t have the freedom to do it in the first place.
Does that mean the type of voluntary transaction that includes conditions that you envision cannot exist? They can exist perfectly well. It simply means that they shouldn’t be called property exchange transactions. Stop referring to Person A and Person B as buyers and sellers. Those terms imply a transaction with change of ownership. Call them Licenser and Licensee, or whatever. Then let them, with full knowledge of the facts, decide if they want to buy or license said product. As it is, people think of themselves as buyers. Don’t try to sneak in conditions into that transaction, because they don’t belong there. Telling someone he’s buying a product and then sneaking a condition in there (when the implicit understanding of “buying” alows no such condition) is fraudulous.
This also explains how far off the mark Brian’s little play was. Still, it was funny. 🙂

Posted by: Cosmin at December 28, 2006 11:33 PM

Fred Mann,

Please stop acting so childishly. Everyone can see that I hold these arguments without any controversy or contradiction. There was absolutely no need to single-out my well-known statements that were available to you during our whole discussion. And now you finally think that you came-up with some great argument (like you “rediscovered” Kinsella’s refuted issues with third party involvement).

The reason for your lack of success is that you did not have a proper understanding of basic legal definitions – like “tort,” as demonstrated by your confusion when I used that term (when you accused me of involving third parties into someone else’s contract by referring to tort : ).

Now when you know the definition, you think you’re onto something…

Well, you aren’t. In order to prove that some third party committed such injury against some property or some person – you must prove that this person trespassed. And as you now also know – trespass is by definition the “unauthorized use”. If a third party is taking someone else’s product without any authorization… and during the course of his actions causes injury against the buyer’s property – well that’s an clear issue of property tort.

—–

Cosmin,

In your example, the service M was (allow me to quote you):
“Condition M can be: having to twist one’s own moustache while making use of Product X, or standing nude while enjoying Product X, or something else even more bizarre, such as not opening product X to understand its inner workings”

So instead of choosing “twisting moustache” I chose a more realistic condition in this exchange, such as “painting my fence.”

Of course, this drove you crazy, because my example showed how absurd and thoughtless was your example.

As Brian’s play demonstrated – every attempt of unilateral change in terms of exchange is nothing but a fraud that results in theft. Or it is a case of lunacy.

Now you say that condition of “not opening product X to understand its inner workings” has no place in a legal contract. WHO EVER SAY IT DID? You are making-up your own “arguments” and than you try to reply on them. That’s just insane. How can someone prove that you did open a product that is in your personal use and “understood its inner workings?” Maybe a person like Cosmin would really base his contractual conditions on something that does not involve property and something that can’t even be theoretically enforceable.

On the other hand, someone who is older than eight, or not a member of Texas militia, would simply stipulate that any commercial use, as well as unauthorized copies it produces and/or profits they yield – will belong to the author (in addition to the asked price). This is how you restrict the use of product only to personal purposes.

Someone may even tell you that such contract is not necessary in a co-ownership scenario, but I think this is much clearer case in which the property title on damages caused by unauthorized copies is transferred to the author, eliminating any third party excuse (like contracts normally do).

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 12:33 AM

Okay…

Since there are no serious anti-copyright arguments here, I will put aside my blog politics : ) and I will ask Brian Macker for a small elaboration. I will also explain on why I insist on contractual “terms of use,” in which buyer buys the service of “product use” (for his money and title on any damages) – rather than obtaining a co-ownership there.

Co-ownership implies the joint ownership over the whole piece of undivided property. That’s what they thought us in school. If co-owners have equal property rights over the entire piece of property – than co-owner who was the buyer has equal property rights as the seller…UNLESS, you were referring to some other property division scheme.

Now, in order to divide property according to “types of use”, you would have to assume that one owner has property rights over “commercial and personal use”, while other one has property rights over “personal use – only”. There is a problem here. This is a dividing of ownership based on its “use,” implying that co-owners own “uses” (labor) of anyone involved with their product. Even if you believe in possibility of free-market slave contracts (and you seem to do), there is a problem when this kind of “use” is acquired from people that did not participate in any contract with co-owner. This would indeed constitute enslavement and this scenario would be a wet-dream for many on this blog.

Unfortunately for them, our private “terms of use” contracts (with privatized control and enforcement, instead of current bureaucracy) would eliminate this concern. In this arrangement, the prohibition of certain use is the part of my direct ownership rights over that item. It imposes a “negative obligation” on someone to refrain from unauthorized use (trespass)- without assuming the ownership over someone else’s labor.

Now, you seem to have a different approach to all of this, because you see no problem with slave contracts. You stated that: “copyright owner then by extension becomes the co-owner of someone’s brain who has read the book…The same can be said of any contract where you agree to something. In a way the person becomes a co-owner in you till you discharge your obligations with regard to the contract.”

Rothbard pointed out problems with such logic in his “Ethics of Liberty” (I am not quoting Rothbard in order to worship his words, but to use his arguments and give him his due credit for them). Rothbard said:

—————
“I can give away or sell to another person my shoes, my house, my car, my money, etc. But there are certain vital things which, in natural fact and in the nature of man, are inalienable, i.e., they cannot in fact be alienated, even voluntarily. Specifically, a person cannot alienate his will, more particularly his control over his own mind and body. Each man has control over his own mind and body. Each man has control over his own will and person, and he is, if you wish, “stuck” with that inherent and inalienable ownership. Since his will and control over his own person are inalienable, then so also are his rights to control that person and will. That is the ground for the famous position of the Declaration of Independence that man’s natural rights are inalienable; that is, they cannot be surrendered, even if the person wishes to do so.

Or, as Williamson Evers points out, the philosophical defenses of human rights are founded upon the natural fact that each human is the proprietor of his own will. To take rights like those of property and contractual freedom that are based on a foundation of the absolute self-ownership of the will and then to use those derived rights to destroy their own foundation is philosophically invalid.

Hence, the unenforceability, in libertarian theory, of voluntary slave contracts.”
———————————————-

I am looking forward to your response.

Regards.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 1:54 AM

I presume the reasoning to why intellectual property rights should be district from general property rights is one of cloning. Physical objects can’t be mindless copied out of thin air. On the other hand, the text of a book can scanned put up onto a website and cloned ad nauseam.

A farmer who breed a new type of apple, which happens to be purple, can produce a crate of them for sale. When the farmer puts the apples up for sale there are only two ways to get a purple apple, buy one or steal one. Simple property rights scenaro.

But in the case of a book, if a person on the beach is reading a book, stops, puts it down and decides to the shops for a while, another person comes along, picks up the book, scans it in page-by-page into a computer, uploads it to a website, then puts on-line for anyone to download for free has not committed any theft under traditional property rights law. Which is to say the computer person didn’t deprive the book owner from his book. As opposed to a thief who puts a purple apple in his pocket and runs for his life.

Intellectual property rights would then presume that since text and software can be cloned without any physical loss to the owner would amount to another type of theft, that is, people who are consuming the product, a book or operating system say, didn’t pay for it.

Posted by: Sam at December 29, 2006 2:12 AM

Sasha…
Let’s say I find a book on a chair in my coffee shop at closing time, and I copy it, what SPECIFICALLY have I done wrong? Remember, wrongdoing is necessary for a tort to exist (or do you disagree with that???).
I have not obtained the book illegally — after all, it was left on MY property. And unless copying is a wrong in and of itself, then this act can also not be considered tortious behavior. So where does the tort come from?
Now, last time I pressed you on this issue, you responded with ” ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical. The book’s “content” is nothing but patterns of letters in a book. So we are talking about physical characteristics.” But since you’ve renounced idea ownership, this explanation is no longer applicable (since you start the response off with “ideas CAN be owned …”).
When I pressed again, you gave this non sequitur response :
“products that can easily be discovered independently – cannot be copyrighted. Why? Well, how can you prove that someone copied your wheel??? Wheel can be discovered independently and no court would ever rule that someone copied my particular wheel. On the other hand – is it so difficult to prove whether or not I copied Hoppe’s book, word-for-word?”

This is completely irrelevant!!! No one is even disputing that a copy was made. I (the coffee shop owner) would freely admit it. The key here is that I have done nothing wrong!! The contract signed by the original purchaser can in no way be considered binding on me. And unless I have broken a law, regulation, rule, statute, etc., there can be no tort. The end.
So how do you plan to recover damages from me?

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 29, 2006 2:26 AM

Sam,

The issue of “physical loss” is irrelevant in a copyright contract, but I appreciate your efforts to think of something new.

It is not the purpose of “terms of use” to prevent the physical loss of some item – but to prevent its unauthorized use. As I said before, if your copy of the book makes it on the Internet, you will be responsible for enormous damages to the author (approx. in the amount of total access to electronic version times the value). Now, in order to to help yourself, you would sue this third party for tort – or else face the consequences of your negligence.

—-

Fred Mann,

You never give up! But where is your revolutionary evidence that I contradicted myself with the position of “not owning idea per se?” We’re all waiting for you.

In the meantime, I will answer to your coffee shop question, although I covered similar scenario before: If you find someone’s book on a chair of your shop, it is an example of mislaid property. Mislaid property by legal definition is not “lost” or “abandoned.” It simply means that the owner likely intended to set it there, but he forgot to pick it up.

In these cases, the finder cannot be considered as a book’s immediate owner! The finder (in this case the owner of property where this book was found) has a duty to treat this book as someone else’s property and to wait for the book’s user to return. He would also have the contact address to turn the book over to its rightful owner (the author). If he does not give this “grace period” to the user – and he makes no effort in contacting the known owner – then his use of this book (any use) is unauthorized. And as you now finally know, unauthorized use is called trespass and any “injuries” caused by this unlawful actions are a simple property tort.

Strangely, you now hallucinate that you “pressed” me when you asked me about the issue of independent discoveries – although I quoted Rothbard from the very beginning. He stated that copyrights are superior to our current patents simply because they allow independent discoveries and they can be completely based on free-market contracts and property rights. So I was not “pressed” by your blind attempts at all.

I don’t care that you think that independent discoveries are “irrelevant” (with all your exclamation points). They are relevant to courts, because it must be determined whether someone really violated their terms of use (upon which the market exchange was based) – or they completely accidentally produced something that resembles the original.

Do not mix this completely separate issue with your coffee shop example, for which you now got your response. Happy? Next!

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 4:17 AM

All these copying examples seem to follow a strange pattern.

Somehow they all involve seemingly innocent, finding a book laying around, carelesness, etc. They all suppose the first person that acquired the authorized, contractually binding copy loses it and gets it copied unintentially.

Which seems to imply all people refusing IP actually know deep down that this is plain wrong.

If you concede that two sides can make a legitimate IP contract, you must concede that these contracts are legal.

Third party stuff comes later.

And Sasha explained the tort issue.

Why dont you just give up.

Posted by: ktibuk at December 29, 2006 5:50 AM

Brian’s skit got me to thinking: Who owns the book?

I think that this is a major sticking point of this whole argument. I’m coming around to the viewpoint that, with Sasha’s copyright, the book cannot actually be owned by the purchaser. There seems to me to be no other way to resolve this transaction with the libertarian concept of property.

And you know what? That’s just fine! If the book seller is not actually selling the book, but “renting” it out indefinitely, then it all makes sense. Now, conditions of use can be applied that by which the “buyer” must abide. If the “buyer” violates these conditions, the book must be returned. We don’t need to reinvent the concept of property to make this work.

Anyone else with me on this?

Posted by: Scott D at December 29, 2006 9:55 AM

Peter,

“No, just an observation: people who go around proclaiming how much smarter they are than everybody else, how much they know, and what original thinkers they are are never smarter than everybody else, know much of anything, or think original thoughts (unless it’s of the “I am Napolean Bonaparte” variety; and even that’s not very original!). IME, all the really smart and original people over the age of 15 don’t think they’re very smart or original at all.”

Let’s be honest about this. You are suffering from the same problem the other guy is. You assume you know what I think and know, then project those false beliefs on me.

I don’t think I’m smarter than everyone else, I just don’t like people presuming what I know. That is what the other guy was doing and now you are doing pretty much the same thing. You don’t know what is in my mind. Not only can’t you know unless I tell you but since I am parroting any particular philosopher, economist, or scientist, because I am an original thinker, you can’t even reliably predict what I am going to say. That was the motivation for me saying I was an original thinker.

Randomly guessing what someone else knows and thinks is hard enough when the person tends to parrot others thoughts. People how think outside the box are even harder to pin down. I was trying to point that out to the other guy. I was not saying I’m smarter than everybody. That’s just stupid. Stop putting words in my mouth.

There has been a tiresome amount of this kind of behavior on this thread. I don’t mind someone honestly misunderstanding something, misreading something, and even allow for my atrocious writing style. However the anti-IP participants on this tread are not communicating in ways that indicate that these honorable miscommunications are the problem. No one is asking for clarification on main points.

For instance, in this case you could have asked me. Why did you say that? Did you mean your smarter than everyone? To which I would have replied “No. My motivation is clear in context. I am objecting to the assumption that I don’t know squat about an area. He didn’t address the subject but started making ad-hominem type attacks, which I addressed. He questioned my authority to even speak and that it why I had to even bring up the subject. I don’t, out of the blue, start harping on how smart I am.”

Also your above statement is not even true. There are plenty of people who run around flashing credentials to show that they are smarter than others. Do you actually believe that someone who has a PHD in biology pointing out that fact when discussing evolution with a creationist should be ignored because he thinks he’s smarter than everyone else? Get real.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 10:53 AM

Cosmin,
“I just read your play, Brian. Hilarious. I mean it. And you’re absolutely right.

It’s sad, though. I don’t own any book I bought. I don’t own my house. I don’t own materials I bought to build an ab machine. I don’t own my clothes. I don’t own the food I eat. I just hold on to those things, for as long as I use them in the way I’m licensed to use them. Welcome to the end of property.

Don’t despair, Brian says it’s nice. You’ll have a great time!”

Thanks for clarifying that. My little play was not intended to actually even be considered an argument against property rights. Yet you seem to think it did. Not only that but you agree with that conclusion. So apparently you do not believe in property rights at all. I think it would have been constructive of you to point that out in your discussions. Try this:
“Intellectual property is invalid because in fact the concept of private property itself is invalid.” You can then expand upon this point but at least people will no where you are coming from.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 11:02 AM

Sasha,

I think you are right about some of these guys being anarcho-communists. I am well aware of how those guys falsely label themselves as libertarians.

This Cosmos fellow apparently does not believe in property rights at all. He claims that I have found some greater truth with that play.

I hate the deceptive intellectual practices of the left. Political libertarianism has always had strong property rights as a central tenet. Being “anti-government” is not actually a base tenet of libertarianism but merely a derivation by some libertarians.

So what do the “left libertarians” do? They create a philosophy that absolutely denies property rights as a central tenet and any form of government is rejected because it’s purpose is to enforce such rights. Based on this unimportant similarity the start calling themselves libertarians. It’s the same way they stole the term liberal.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 11:10 AM

Scott,

You are starting to get the idea. Both Sasha and I are against patents. I in fact hate the way patents are being use to suppress innovation. I do think that patents are invalid and harmful government grants of monopoly. That doesn’t mean copyrights are invalid.

I think the people on this thread did not even understand Sasha. They really don’t get it. I was not thinking from a legal perspective and Sasha has this idea that third parties can be dealt with in tort. I’m no lawyer but it sounds fine to me. Just so long as it models what is “really” happening here.

Yes, your idea of thinking of this as renting is sort of ok. Not exactly correct however, but it is similar. It’s sort of a rental agreement but where part of the agreement is you can destroy the property or transfer it if you wish, plus the rental is paid up front and lives for the lifetime of the object. The original seller retains certain interest in the property. It can be expressed in that way if it makes it easier for you to understand it.

I originally chimed in only to support Sasha. I didn’t expect many would change there minds. I was hoping that somehow the dialog would help not only Sasha and myself but perhaps a dim hope someone elses lightbulb would turn on.

I can certainly tell you I have suffered under many a misconception and misunderstanding of the world. I only get into these arguments to clarify my thoughts.

I for instance became uncertain about the issue of good samaritan laws a while back and started discussing it. I formerly believed they were completely unjustified. I have since come to the point where I think they can be justified based on an expanded notion of natural rights.

I hold all my beliefs tentatively (despite Peters ridiculous assumptions) and I am more than willing to change back. However, at this point I do believe that it would be rational to consider certain acts validly criminal with a proper form of good samaritan law. I can think of no issue that is a roadblock and I have read up on the area a bit.

I have read quite a bit of libertarian literature and have yet to come upon a treatment of good samaritan law that addresses my points. I’m not sure if that is just because I haven’t run across it yet or what.

I have often had original ideas only to find out that somebody had already though about these subjects hundreds of years ago. The reason the originality is important to me is that if I’ve read extensively in an area and no one mentions an important point then it seems to me they probably didn’t address it.

I have yet to even see the anti-IP readers on this tread even comprehend what Sasha and I are saying. They seem to be stuck on non-issues like how wonderful life would be without IP or how in their particular industry copyrights are not worth pursuit. Well so what.

There are plenty of industries where they are well worth the pursuit. Literature, music, and software being some. This can be true even within the same industry. People in the same industry can pursue different strategies to make a buck. It rubs me the wrong way that they feel that they must actively undermine other peoples strategies.

It would be as if somebody in the auto selling industry claimed that they do just fine selling cars so there is no need to rent them. Not only that but then advocating that change the law so that not all contracts but only rental contracts are considered null and void.

I’m sure these same anti-IP folks would be quite upset if somebody argued there is no need to use gold as money, that he has found in his particular industry that paper money is just fine, and that we should make any contracts that use gold as units of repayment invalid and instead substitute cash only.

Disclamer for some who might read this: I brought up these other subjects for illustrative purposes only. Both to illustrate my motivations and my understandings. They were not intended to be an analogy between gold and literature, money and rentals, or any other such silly thing. If you think such silly thoughts please ask me my intent first and I will disabuse you of any such notions.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 11:45 AM

Sasha

You wrote: “Property is that which is legally owned by an individual or entity.”

Define and explain your term “legally owned”. What does it mean exactly. What are the conditions necessary for “legal ownership”? What preconditions & context must be met? What is the premise? How is the concept derived?

Sione

BTW you should stop interchanging the concept “product” for the concept “property”. they are not the same- not identical. It’s a mistake to treat them as the same (one of several errors you are guilty of).

Posted by: Sione Vatu at December 29, 2006 11:56 AM

Sam,
“But in the case of a book, if a person on the beach is reading a book, stops, puts it down and decides to the shops for a while, another person comes along, picks up the book, scans it in page-by-page into a computer, uploads it to a website, then puts on-line for anyone to download for free has not committed any theft under traditional property rights law. Which is to say the computer person didn’t deprive the book owner from his book. As opposed to a thief who puts a purple apple in his pocket and runs for his life.”

You don’t understand my point yet. The person who picked up the book is trespassing. He has no right to take the book and use it. He uses the book as a productive input to his scanner to create the copy. So the copy inside his computer is in fact partially the work product of the person who wrote the book.

The efforts expended by the author are directly and physically tracible as an input to this copy in the computer. Without the work effort of the author and the use of the book as a productive input to the scanner the computer copy could not exist. This is clearly an issue of misuse of property and theft.

There was a person in the news a few years back that was sneaking into someones driveway at night and using the car but refilling the gas tank and putting it back. He was doing this over a period and somehow the owner noticed and had him jailed. Clearly it is illegal to use someone’s property without permission. I’m not sure they got him on theft or misuse of property, or what. I’m not a lawyer.

In any case, when the criminal programmer who stole the work uploads it any other copies made are also done so with the productive input of the original writer without any compensation, contract, agreement of any kind. He’s not getting paid for his work product and he didn’t agree to that situation either implicitly or explicitly. In fact he explicitly went out of his way to make sure that this was the understanding. There is a copyright notice in the book.

The writer is part owner in that computer copy since he retained “intellectual ownership” over the book; this is like having mineral rights in a property someone else owns. The copy in the computer was made with his productive product (things can be both consumer and productive goods) without permission so he is also retains his “intellectual ownership” in the good produced from this event.

Since he now has “intellectual ownership” over the copy in the computer he therefore will gain such ownership over any copies made from that copy. Uploading to the Internet is such a copying process. So he owns the copy on the web server. When people download onto their individual computers those copies are owned “intellectually” by him also.

The people who download it for free may be innocent in certain ways, but they did receive stolen property. The owner of said property has the right of restitution. In this case restitution would consist of destruction of the copy (or payment with retention and no further copying).

The people who downloaded it may or may not be “innocent” and restitution may or may fall on the back of the person who stole the copy in the first place. I don’t want to get into the details here and it doesn’t really matter.

That’s how I think about this. It resolves the issue of independent creativity. I could make a book of one page with one word “The”. I could then sell it with a copyright contract. The problem is that I couldn’t go around suing whoever used the word “the”. Why?

Because there is no physical replication chain from my book to their copy it really isn’t a “copy” of their book. It is well established that the word “The” preexisted. Nor is someone talking about your book a copying of it. The discussions purpose is not to use your book as a productive input in a copying process. If I tell someone that some jerk had the stupid idea of writing a book with the word “the” in it, then the person went and wrote his own original book which was just the word “the” then the productive chain would be broken even though the idea was transmitted.

We could have used our combined brains as a replicating machine. If I started reading the book and said to the other guy, “The first word of the book is ‘the’, please copy that down. Now the second word is .. well there are not more words. You now have a precise copy of the book. Let’s publish and make money off this.” then that would be a misuse. But why would anyone bother with replicating so simple a book? How would the author prove it wasn’t “original”. Why would a court even entertain such a trivial dispute?

A book with a single word is so simple that there is no originality to it. There is no original content to it. No work product. So there really is no work product to steal in the first place even if you had agreed to some contract that said you wouldn’t replicate it.

That is not true of a long novel. The character and plot of a novel is work product and a non-exact copying can “steal” that work product. In that case a description of the book can end up being a kind of replication of the work product.

I don’t think this is an area with a fine dividing line. Saying it’s “A book about pirates.” clearly falls outside the constraints but giving a long and descriptive outline of plot and characters could count as a duplication of the work product. A movie based on a book certainly counts, even if not an exact copy.

It’s never the intent of the author to disallow partial descriptions anyway. Certainly the author or inventor wants people to describe his product. Saying “It’s a book about worms” or “A invention that harvests worms” is just fine.

Of course there are things you cannot contractually agree to and reasons why certain things may not be copyrightable. I believe slander is criminal, so I think if someone wrote a book that slandered someone that person would have a right to a copy of the book regardless of whether the copyright owner put a clause in that said “This is a book about Joe and no one is allowed to sell or show Joe the book”. If it then proceeded to lie about Joe then I feel that anyone who had a copy could share it with Joe regardless of the agreement.

There need be no deception involved. The person could buy the book with the understanding that the book was to be honest and that he was honestly agreeing not to share it with anyone. Once he had read the book and seen that it was untrue slander he would no longer be bound by the contract.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 12:48 PM

 

Scott D,

Finally some progress here…

I developed my contractual framework of copyrights (rather than insisting on co-ownership which was implied by Rothbard), just to avoid any confusion about equal rights of co-owners, and to avoid slave contracts that would be implied in dividing this quasi-ownership based on someone else’s use of it.

You can certainly have an agreement with your publisher to have co-ownership, but if publisher cares about his firm he will not allow everyone to have that same ownership title (just as we don’t allow just everyone to have ownership over our other property).

—-

Sione,

I’m not your legal encyclopedia. If you don’t know what “legal ownership” means than don’t bother to participate in these discussions. If you know what it means, but you want to make a point about it – JUST DO IT, or walk away. Those “several errors” you mentioned are nothing but your wishful thinking. You still have not pointed out a single one (although you tried with those huge essays about nothing)

PS
By the way, when I say that something is “my product” or you can see that in my context I refer to some product as mine, possessive adjectives in my sentences imply my ownership or property right. Your reply about that was unnecessary.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 2:20 PM

Brian:
“Yes, your idea of thinking of this as renting is sort of ok. Not exactly correct however, but it is similar.”

No, really, I meant it quite literally. I say, get rid of the whole transfer of ownership nonsense completely. Make it explicit that the author/publisher still owns the physical copies of the books and therefore still has dominion over their use. This would neatly evade the difficulties of dividing ownership or setting up post-purchase “terms of use”.

This also eliminates the problem of third-parties, since the author/publisher always retains final ownership, and therefore could prosecute trespassers (i.e. copiers) directly.

Whether such a system would hold up competitively in the market is another matter entirely, but at least it wouldn’t force us to redefine property.

Posted by: Scott D at December 29, 2006 2:29 PM

Sasha, you are so confused and vague, it’s hard to know where to begin, so I’ll just begin …
You write, “In these cases, the finder cannot be considered as a book’s immediate owner!”
Who is saying that the finder is the new owner? Not me. I don’t have to own the book to copy the ideas from it. Or are you saying that I am not entitled to open the book at all? If so, on what grounds?
Then you write, “… unauthorized use is called trespass and any “injuries” caused by this unlawful actions are a simple property tort.” How EXACTLY have I trespassed? Are you saying that I am bound by the “unauthorized use” clauses in the terms of use agreement, even though I haven’t seen or agreed to them?
I have more, but I’ll keep it simple for now.

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 29, 2006 2:38 PM

Sasha,

I read your query about slavery. I’m not sure I exactly get your point. I’m not a lawyer so you are going to probably either have to dumb things down for me or be more explicit.

First off let me say that I was addressing issues of justice and not issues of law. I am not familiar enough with law to translate my understanding into legalese.

As far as I can tell your arguments based on law are valid and other than Rothbard I have not heard it discussed in this way. I read that so long ago I don’t know if he mentioned tort. If not, then I say, “kudos to you for knowing this, or figuring it out”.

From my novice point of view someone taking a book off the beach he didn’t own and copying it is trespass. I’m not sure of the proper or exact way to address this legally. You’d know more than me. It seems however that both the person who wrote the book and the person who owned it were wronged and something needs to be done to right it.

From an economics viewpoint I do understand that all the copies that result are “product” that is rightfully do to the owner of the copyright. I don’t see however how tort alone can restore the situation. It seems to me that the stolen property aspect of the copies is not addressed. So long as those copies are not paid for and continue to be copied the copyright owner is being trespassed against since he is co-owner of those copies. How can tort address this and correct it. Certainly this can go way beyond the control and assets of the original buyer of the book and the first person who unlawfully used the book.

Under my scheme each addition person is trespassing and so can be gone after independently so long as the author can prove by “any reasonable means” that the book is an unauthorized copy.

That was an aside. Now back to your question about slavery.

I don’t quite understand where you are coming from. I am aware of several arguments on why one cannot sell oneself into slavery.

I also do not believe that you can sell yourself into slavery myself, but I may not hold to that belief for the same reasons you do or anyone else. I don’t believe that one can’t do so for the mere reason that there is an a-prior self-evident inability to do so.

I don’t think I need to explain my understanding at this point so I won’t. Maybe later if the need arises or you feel that it is necessary.

If you read my argument you will see that I did not think that preventing you from using your brain as a copying machine is the same thing as slavery. I don’t think this position is supported. Saying I am “part owner” in your brain is not to be taken literally but only as an analogy of sorts. Ownership is the control over something.

I’m not sure these are concepts for which we have the proper language. Might be that their is but I just don’t know how to express it correctly. Since that is the case I will use a further analogy to clarify.

Let me be more specific so it becomes clearer. Let’s use a computer instead of a brain. Suppose there is a type of computer for which it is impossible to fully erase any information ever uploaded. That is, any information written to it becomes inalienable from the computer.

Now suppose I write a spreadsheet program and then copyright it and sell it to you. You load it on your computer and start using it as agreed.

This computer, like a brain, can be used to either “enjoy the use of” the software or to “copy” the software. The contract said you could do the former but not the latter.

Now in a sense I am part owner of the software on your machine because I have authority over, control over, how it is to be used. I could show up at your house and you could ask me, “Can I copy it with your permission to this other computer” and I could answer “Yes, this one time”. Otherwise the answer is “no”. At this point you have lost a little control over your computer (and thus a little bit of your ownership rights).

My control over this first computer in no way “enslaves” it. It can be used for any purpose other than the single one of replication. You just never paid me for that right with regard to something I own that happens to reside in the computer. It resides in the form of a pattern. If the pattern were not present there would be no way for you to violate our agreement in the first place. You can’t copy what’s not there.

The software being present only increases the potential of the computer to be used to replicate it. It increases the set of possible choices and cannot ever decrease the choices. Indeed if this were a normal machine which could be erased, or if it had infinite or upgradeable memory then loading my software would in no way decrease the potential uses of the computer.

Thus when you agree not to copy my software you are not giving anything up you had before. No (what’s the term) remuneration need be passed from me to you to obtain this right over you. It’s a non-transfer more than it is a positive transfer.

Thus in no way can it be said that I restricted the freedom of the base computer. I only increased the freedom. I’m truly putting a control over the software. I haven’t “enslaved” the computer in any way. I’m not forcing the computer to do something it was able to do before, nor am I preventing it from doing something it could do before. Nor does the ownership control I have allow me to force the computer to use new potentials that it has acquired by the installation of my software.

Now suppose you make an unauthorized copy.

If I caught you copying it I could stop you, or ask for damages. Since these computers do not “erase” the best option would be to ask for damages for the copy on the second computer. The copy on the first computer was never a problem as you paid for it. It’s the second copy causes problems .

As with any damages there are limits on the way I can collect. Certainly if you cannot pay the damages then I cannot collect them.

Of course all the rules that one would use in other cases for determining damages would apply. I couldn’t just claim that unauthorized copies are worth a billion apiece if I’m selling the program for $39.

In this case of you making an unauthorized copy on the second machine. One option the judge doesn’t have is making the owner of the machine erase it. Hypothetically that’s impossible and was chosen to make the computer more like a brain.

But that leaves the judge other options. 1) He could assess damages of $39 and ask you to pay and then enjoin you from making additional copies. At which point your second copy would be “authorized”. After all you paid for it. 2) If you couldn’t pay based on poverty then he could force you to sell the second computer (with software which increased it’s value by $39) to a third party and then pay me my $39. The new owner would be “authorized” and you would get the remaining monies less court costs. Again he would enjoin you from repeating your crime.

In the former solution 1) it’s as if you were buying out my ownership interest in the computer. In the latter 2) it’s as if a commonly owned item was sold in order to sever our ties and co-ownership. It’s at least analogous. Maybe we need to use a term other than co-ownership but I don’t see why. I’m open to suggestions.

Note that in the hypothetical I was full owner of unauthorized copy of the software on the second machine and partial owner of the first computer because it was imprinted with my software. Because the software is inalienable from the machine I became a co-owner in both machines. In the second machine I have a full $39 ownership interest, whereas in the first I only have the ownership right of copying control

The value my ownership of copying rights in the first machine is variable. If I already have a copy then the value to me is near zeron. Suppose however my company burns to the ground taking all my copies with it. Suppose further that you were the first person to buy a copy before this happened. Suppose the software was destined to be a winner. Then the copy on your machine would be very valuable to me as the copyright holder. I don’t however have the right to force you to make a copy for me, nor do you have the right to make copies yourself. We would have to negotiate an agreement and share the profits at that point. You could, in fact, destroy the computer at that point and I would not have any damages.

Now lets move to a brain and a book, vs. a computer and software in this analogy game. The brains powers of storage and replication are less so my interests are less. But let’s gloss over that and assume that the full $39 is the value of the unauthorized copy of my book in a brain. Of course, borrowing a book to read it has less value than the exact copy of a computer program. Suppose you buy the book at the going rate of $39 and read it. However, a fellow, Joe, gets an unauthorized copy and reads it. You can see that this is analogous to the first computer having an authorized copy, but the second computer having an unauthorized copy.

One for one the analogy is thus:
A)Brain = Computer
B) Book = Software
C) You = First computer with authorized copy of book
D) Joe = Second computer with unauthorized copy of book
E) I can restrict you from copying the book from your brain = I can restrict the copying of software off the first computer
F) I do not fully own the copy of the book in your brain = I do not fully own the software on the first computer
D) I fully own the copy of the book in Joes head = I fully own the copy of the software on computer 2.

Now the way I see it. I am owed some money here. Approximately $39 for Joes use of my book minus the reasonable costs of replication I saved because someone else bore the costs of copying the original book. I’m essentially owed my royalties on the book. In first analogy with software I did not mention the cost of replication because it was so tiny.

Who I collect and how I can collect depends on who did the copying. Lets assume it was you as in the first example. It really doesn’t matter to me if how you copied the book. You either did so directly from the book word for word or from memory. Now suppose that have perfect memory and were the person who made the unauthorized copy and sold to Joe. That makes it a good analogy to the other case, except for the fact you used an intervening medium, the book, and sold it to another individual.

Those differences are unimportant. You could have written the software to a CD in the first example then sold it to another person who loaded it onto their computer. In which case someone else would own the second computer. It’s too much effort to go back and fix that but understand that I could and it would change little.

Using the analogy we can see that I am a sort of co-owner of your brain because I have the right to disallow you from copying my book from your brain. Again this right in no way leaves you less free than you were before my transaction. You are not in any way a slave to me.

What about the other guy? Again the same applies with regard to copying rights. My preventing him from copying my book out of his head in no way restricts his freedom beyond that which he had before he read the book. The reading of the book only enhances his options. That he missing out on the full potential that my book brings is not my problem since I take nothing away he didn’t already have. This restriction on copying the book cannot be the source of any enslavement. There are no other actions I am restricting on his part so they cannot be a source of enslavement. Yet I do have a right over him. A negative right, which does in a way, give me control over him. But no more control than the negative right of not allowing him to trespass in my yard does.

What about damages? Say my royalties were $1 a book. Well since you made the unauthorized copy then you owe me the dollar. Joe was innocent. We can’t sell Joe to recuperate costs so if you can’t pay me then it’s like any other settlement. Likewise if I cannot extract the payment from you for other reasons it’s just tough luck. O.J. Simpson comes to mind. Of course, we have all the normal methods of getting the money like garnishing wages, fines, whatever.

Suppose it was Joe who made the unauthorized copy. Perhaps you were reading the book and he snuck over and copied the book while you were at the refreshment stand. Suppose it’s provable in court perhaps by a security tape. In any case I’m owed a minimum of $1 from Joe. The fact that he owes me a $1 doesn’t make him my slave. Nor for the same reasons above does him not being allowed to copy the book make him my slave.

This whole “slave issue” was brought up on another thread somewhere as an objection to my idea of co-ownership of the copies. I don’t agree it is a valid objection. Although it does make a good honest attempt to find a hole in the idea. The type of co-ownership I am talking about here is very limited and is not strong enough to entail slavery.

As you can see, I’m not really making a legal argument. More like I’m making an argument about rights and justice. Not sure how this reasoning would translate into law. As you know the law is not always about justice and cannot always achieve it. Likewise I’d say that one could always find gray areas in the topic of justice and rights also. They can arise for dependent, similar, or completely different reasons.

Looking forward to your response. I hope I didn’t misunderstand you and waste all that writing.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 2:59 PM

Scott,

The problem with your idea is that the owner of the copyright really doesn’t care to take on all the other responsibilities that go with renting. It isn’t worth his trouble and he may not have the up front capital to do so. It also does not allow for mixing. It brings up more problems than it solves, really.

For instance, an airplane might consist of the discoveries of several people. The turbine may be copyrighted by one guy while the cup dispenser by another. Now the whole plane is rented to someone else. Does everyone in the chain of ownership instead now have to keep rental records.

Now suppose the pilot of the plane is negligent and puts on a parachute and jumps on in mid air. The plane crashes into a house destroying it. Who gets sued? Does the cup dispenser company get sued by the homeower because it flew out the side of the plane and destroyed his car? Does the cup dispenser company then have to sue the airline for the depreciated cost of the dispenser?

What is wrong with thinking as if the copyright holder is a co-owner in the sense of control. In fact this is exactly what we do now for copyrights. I haven’t come up with some new concept, nor even in applying it to patents. What I did was to think about it in a different way.

What was original about this was viewing the “intellectual” property as really being about physical property and being explicit about it. Also in being explicit about the fact that a replicatable item acts as a factor of production, and that the ownership of the physical item is actually transferred in the copying process because of this.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 3:13 PM

Sasha,

Do you understand that co-ownership rights don’t have to be equal? I thought that was what rights-of-way, and mineral rights were all about. Not to mention encumberments (which I feel must be “owned” by someone or they can be homesteaded).

The reason I am concerned with calling it ownership is because I want it attached to someone. If it is not attached to someone then why bother? Also if unattached it can become immpossible to ever change. Suppose a piece of land has an encumberment that says “no raising chikens”. If someone owns that right then the owner of the land can buy it back to restore the property to a single unit of ownership. Perhaps the encumberance is owned jointly by the owners of adjacent land. Then the owner of the land can buy the encumberence back from the individual co-owners till he has all of them. At which point he can raise his chickens.

If the encumberence was just placed in the deed without a indentified owner then it becomes impossible to undo. Suppose I sold my house and added the encumberance without specifying an owner of this right to raise chickens. Now how can that be undone in a sensible fashion?

I bought a piece of land once that included in the deed a right of way over someone elses property to allow access to a river. The seller of both pieces felt they were more valuable sold this way. Suppose conditions change and it becomes much more valuable for each piece to be independent. Maybe people become more concerned about privacy and waterfront prices skyrocket. Then the person who has the piece by the river can offer to buy out my right of way.

If the right of way was just free floating then I don’t see how this can happen.

Likewise the copyright must be held by someone. If at any point it becomes “lost” by the owner dying without leaving it to someone, or for some other reason. Then I think that anyone can homestead that right starting with their own particular copy of a book.

For instance, the people who found the dead sea scrolls could have copyrighted them under my system. If someone else happened to independently find another ancient copy then they too would be able to claim copyright over all replicas made from their original source.

Of course in that case it would make sense for one to sell to the other to make litigation of third parties easier.

Copyrights don’t have to originate with authors under my system but if they don’t it’s much harder to prove your case. It can only happen however if the original copyright was either never established or abandoned in some way.

Of course if one second person to find an ancient copy of the dead sea scrolls sells them free of copyright the first guy is basically screwed.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 3:32 PM

“BTW you should stop interchanging the concept “product” for the concept “property”. they are not the same- not identical. It’s a mistake to treat them as the same (one of several errors you are guilty of).”

Why don’t you stop charging people with errors and explain exactly why you think they are important to the topic at hand. Please explain why even if I had an inflated ego that matters. 🙂 More seriously, please explain why you think it matters if Sasha calls something a product or a piece of property.

You are making us work too hard to figure out what the heck you are on about. Quote a sentence, make a point, do something. I’m not going back to whatever Sasha wrote in the past to try to figure out this one.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 3:38 PM

Sione,

My last post was directed at you.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 3:43 PM

Fred,

So you found a book. Don’t you think you have a duty to return lost property to the rightful owner?

Under my understanding there are two owners. The buyer of the book and the copyright owner. One owns the physical book and the other owns the rights to copy it.

You must take reasonable care to return the book to the buyer but if you fail at that well then you can homestead that part of the ownership of the book. You get to keep the book.

The same holds for the copyright owner. You must take reasonble care to establish if it is copyrighted and that the copying rights might be owned by someone else. If it is not copyrighted then of course you can copy at will. If on the ohter hand it is copyrighted then you cannot homestead that part of the ownership. Since most books print the copyright notice at the front they make this easy for you to establish. You know damn well who owns the copying rights on the book.

Now it might be this is an old book and the original copyright owner abandoned his copyright. Then you can indeed homestead this right on the book you have.

Of course, your question was address to Sasha. He is giving a different treatment to this so I have no idea if he has an answer.

He’s going to have to teach me a little law first. Your claim does however sound like a plausible loophole to me.

I’m not sure who the copyright owner can sue in that case, or even in the case of a stolen book. Or worse yet a stolen book that was then lost and found. Can he really sue the owner of the book if it is lost and that causes other people to gain access? How to put the genie back in the bottle once copies proliferate? How much damages can one guy be held responsible for?

Again, I’m not sure how his scheme works yet. I came into this late, am not a lawyer, and haven’t read any other threads where he discusses this concept.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 3:54 PM

Fred Mann,

I am not vague or confused at all. You just demonstrated your confusion with basic legal concepts.

If you (as a finder in your scenario) are not a legal owner of the mislaid book – than your use of that book (evidenced by reproduction) is a trespass or unauthorized use. There is no need for contract in order to establish that someone used your property without authorization. Any injuries committed during the course of this trespass constitute a property tort.

——-

Brian,

This is not a simple issue, so give it some time and some more thinking.

The problem with co-ownership in terms of copyright is following: by definition, both co-owners will have equal property rights over that same item. If you talk about different distribution of physical property – that’s a different issue, but that is not co-ownership (refer to any scientific definition)

Copyright is not about co-ownership (equal property rights), nor it’s about uneven shares of the same physical property. It is about one person (the author) having total property rights, while some other person is allowed to use that book in certain ways (“non-commercial”) determined by contract.

Dividing ownership based on possible “uses” is problematic. You can divide a piece of land or anything physical – but you cannot divide physical property based on possible “uses.” Such division would imply that you actually own two different types of “uses” and that you can somehow split them between two owners. You cannot accuse your “co-owner” or other parties of trespass based on your control/ownership of any potential “uses” – because that is a self-contradictory slave-ownership. This is not a legal way to establish “copyright,” although your understanding of its implications is sound and your criticism of anarcho-communists is great.

I don’t know if I explained my position clearly, but this is not a simple matter. We are talking about difference between libertarian “negative obligations” (prohibiting some uses of your own property) versus quasi-ownership based on permitted “uses”.

As far as that “book lost on the beach” example goes, you can refer to my response to Fred Mann. It is a rather simple common-law case.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 4:18 PM

Brian writes,
“You know damn well who owns the copying rights on the book.”
Under the current state-imposed system, yes, this is true. But in the free-market, there are no universal copy “rights”. Sasha is trying to simulate the current system using a “terms of use” agreement model, and trying to show how no “unauthorized” copies could possibly arise without violating something or other…
You might want to read Kinsella’s “Against IP” (I think that’s what it’s called) on his website for a decent intro.

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 29, 2006 4:19 PM

Brian,

Well, I never intended to take this beyond items that exist purely to hold information. Once you get into the realm of manufactured goods, I see the problems that you bring up as being perfectly legitimate limitations on the whole concept of copyright.

You want to restrict access to information? Fine, don’t give up your rights to it. Explicitly state that you own any copies you make and that the use of one of those copies to create another copy of the book is trespass. But if you want to free yourself from liability once the product is out of your hands, then any ownership rights, including the right to copy, go with it.

Posted by: Scott D at December 29, 2006 4:27 PM

Fred,

You’re just waisting time, because you attempt does not deal with fundamental issues here. Brian knows my position and he knows that in any case (real life or any hypothetical example) your “book-finder” will commit a trespass by using someone else’s book without owner’s authorization. In any injuries as the result of that

—–

Brian,

Your objection to Scott’s statement is not valid. If you get shot by a gun, you don’t get to sue the bullet manufacturer… at least not yet, although tobacco litigations brought us closer to that lunacy 🙂

In your example, if the private pilot destroys someone’s house – he is responsible. I didn’t get the meaning of “record holding issue” and how it is different from your imaginary or even real self-ownership.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 4:38 PM

Scott D,

Please don’t tell me that you view the question “if a pilot negligently drives the rented airplane into my house who gets sued (?????????)” – as (allow me to quote you) “perfectly legitimate limitations on the whole concept of copyright.”

And I thought we made some progress….

tsk, tsk, tsk…

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 4:42 PM

Sasha,
Your objection to Scott’s statement is not valid. You are correct. I didn’t structure it properly. I was thinking of the case where I lend my car out to someone and they crash because I didn’t fill the brake fuild up properly.

If the inventor owns all the planes out there then he becomes liable to maintain them all. It’s just very problematic. Why bother.

It also makes it impossible for the inventor to own his invention without also having access to lots of capital.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 5:50 PM

SR> Give me a break.

I certainly have done so. There was a time when I would have made fun of you for free, but alas, my time is now too valuable. sigh 🙁

Sam> Physical objects can’t be mindless copied out of thin air.

Objects aren’t made out of thin air, copied or not.

SR> I will answer to your coffee shop question, although I covered similar scenario before:…

Not effectively.

ktibuk> All these copying examples seem to follow a strange pattern. Somehow they all involve seemingly innocent, finding a book laying around, carelesness, etc… Third party stuff comes later.

Um, Hello? Almost all the “copying examples” are the third party examples.

ktibuk> And Sasha explained the tort issue.

Not effectively.

ktibuk> Why dont you just give up.[?]

If you want to prove the existance of a God or that ideas are property, then it is for you to prove the positive assertion, not for the doubters to disprove it.

BM> However the anti-IP participants on this tread are not communicating in ways that indicate that these honorable miscommunications are the problem. No one is asking for clarification on main points.

After all these words, I can’t spot a spark clear foundational thinking on the part of IP proponents. So to ask them to “clarify” a main point built on a sand foundation seems like a waste of time. However, it is amusing at times.

BM> I think the people on this thread did not even understand Sasha.

I am guilty as charged! {laughs}

BM> I have yet to even see the anti-IP readers on this tread even comprehend what Sasha and I are saying.

Perhaps it is because it makes no sense, nor even holds a visible glimmer of hope of doing so. I comprehend it for what it is: rubbish. There are a zillion crank doctrines to rebuke. Why spend a lot of effort on this one, especially without pay? Who outside the mises blog is going to give 2 seconds of attention to what your views are?

SR> I’m not your legal encyclopedia.

True.

Scott D> This also eliminates the problem of third-parties, since the author/publisher always retains final ownership, and therefore could prosecute trespassers (i.e. copiers) directly.

A owns some ink and paper. If A’s property (ink and paper) is arranged, or gets arranged, in a way that happens to be well correlated (how well correlated is enough?) to B’s arrangement of ink and paper, how (all of the sudden) did A’s property automatically transfer to B against A’s will?

Fred Mann> Or are you saying that I am not entitled to open the book at all?

Oh, you must not have read the Sasha rule book. {laughs} You can open the book, but only in search for one piece of information. The rest of the information in there is off-limits. Somehow you’re supposed to know that.

BM> Since most books print the copyright notice at the front they make this easy for you to establish. You know damn well who owns the copying rights on the book.

Maybe they lied. Sasha has pointed out how much people lie, in every IP thread he’s been in. He is funny that way.

BM> He’s going to have to teach me a little law first.

That is too much! 😉

Scott D> Explicitly state that you own any copies you make and that the use of one of those copies to create another copy of the book is trespass.

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? One can say (state) anything one wants. The question is: why is a third party obligated to do what another asks? To make it work, ideas have to be property. But they aren’t. uh oh.

Posted by: greg at December 29, 2006 6:06 PM

Scott,
“But if you want to free yourself from liability once the product is out of your hands, then any ownership rights, including the right to copy, go with it.”

Well I didn’t actually want to do that. I wanted it to make sense. There are two different kinds of ownership here in the physical property. The owner of the plane has complete control over maintenence, use, and disposal. So if he doesn’t service it and it crashes it should be his liablity. Other cases would be if he purposely flys it into a building, or if when he’s done with it he dumps it on your lawn.

My argument would in fact be that the copyright holder (not neccesarily the same person as the inventor) would be responsible for design flaws and the like. The copyright holder would be responsible for any liability do to flaws in the design. If he also happens to be the manufacturer he would be liable for manufacturing quality issues.

Of course, if an unauthorized copy fails and ends up killing someone the copyright holder cannot be held liable.

I’m not out for a particular result, other than reflecting consequences back on the actors who generated them. (Actors ultimately being some form of replicator or collection of replicators) I believe that all knowledge, information, progress is generated and driven by a processes of trial and error. I do have a bias and that bias is error correction. If consequences do not reflect back on the replicators that cause them then pan-natural-selection cannot occur.

BTW, that is also what was driving my ideas on good Samaritan law. I think that it can be argued that under certain conditions curmudgeons act as parasites on non-curmudgeons. I think the non-curmudgeons have a right to detach these sucker bearing jerks.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 6:09 PM

Sasha,

Reposting because I forgot the quotes:

“Your objection to Scott’s statement is not valid.”

You are correct. I didn’t structure it properly. I was thinking of the case where I lend my car out to someone and they crash because I didn’t fill the brake fuild up properly.

If the inventor owns all the planes out there then he becomes liable to maintain them all. It’s just very problematic. Why bother.

It also makes it impossible for the inventor to own his invention without also having access to lots of capital.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 6:11 PM

I was away for a while, but I came back to see what reply was added to my last comment. I didn’t imagine I’d have to give reading lessons for the fourth time. Here we go again:
Sasha said:
“In your example, the service M was (allow me to quote you):
Condition M can be: having to twist one’s own moustache while making use of Product X,”
Then Sasha adds:
“So instead of choosing “twisting moustache” I chose a more realistic condition in this exchange, such as “painting my fence.””
The problem here is that my quote was:
“…having to twist one’s own moustache WHILE MAKING USE of Product X…
my quote wasn’t:
“having to twist one’s own moustache AS PAYMENT for Product X”
If you don’t understand the difference, you’re beyond hopeless. If English is your first language, you might be retarded. If it isn’t, learn it better, then come to debate. Stop defending your stupid irrelevant example and answer the damn queries.

Moving on…
“Now you say that condition of “not opening product X to understand its inner workings” has no place in a legal contract. WHO EVER SAY IT DID? You are making-up your own “arguments” and than you try to reply on them.”
“Not opening product x to understand its inner working”, or rather not acting commmercially on such understanding (although I don’t see how impeding someone on using knowledge from inside his brain in a commercial venture satisfies personal freedom, which is why I found the acquisition of knowledge to be more workable), is the basis of patent law.
“…would simply stipulate that any commercial use, as well as unauthorized copies it produces and/or profits they yield – will belong to the author (in addition to the asked price). This is how you restrict the use of product only to personal purposes IN A TOTALITARIAN SOCIETY.” Fixed your quote!

Scott said:
“I think that this is a major sticking point of this whole argument. I’m coming around to the viewpoint that, with Sasha’s copyright, the book cannot actually be owned by the purchaser. There seems to me to be no other way to resolve this transaction with the libertarian concept of property.”
I agree with that. In fact, I arrivet to a similar conclusion. Allow me to quote myself:
“Does that mean the type of voluntary transaction that includes conditions that you envision cannot exist? They can exist perfectly well. It simply means that they shouldn’t be called property exchange transactions. Stop referring to Person A and Person B as buyers and sellers. Those terms imply a transaction with change of ownership. Call them Licenser and Licensee, or whatever. Then let them, with full knowledge of the facts, decide if they want to buy or license said product. As it is, people think of themselves as buyers. Don’t try to sneak in conditions into that transaction, because they don’t belong there. Telling someone he’s buying a product and then sneaking a condition in there (when the implicit understanding of “buying” alows no such condition) is fraudulous.”

Brian said:
“Thanks for clarifying that. My little play was not intended to actually even be considered an argument against property rights. Yet you seem to think it did. Not only that but you agree with that conclusion. So apparently you do not believe in property rights at all.”
Read up on sarcasm, Brian.
It’s not that I don’t believe in property rights. It’s that your play doesn’t leave much room for them. If you’re saying that most, or all the transactions we participate in are of a leasing, renting or licensing type, as opposed to property exchange transactions, then obviously the products involved in those transactions are not your property. That isn’t my stand against private property. It’s merely the logical conclusion inferred from the situation YOU posited where we don’t actually buy or sell products.

Brian and Scott:
You two started to argue about what to call those transactions. I don’t think I can help there, but let me suggest what not to call it: property exchange. Don’t call it a Sale. Don’t call the two parties involved sellers and buyers. After that, as Scott said, let the free market decide on the viability of these types of transactions.

Posted by: Cosmin at December 29, 2006 6:15 PM

Also my concern for both good and bad consequences reflecting back on the actors that cause them. In other words justice. In other words what’s needed to reduce error, and support a process that sustains us. My concern for that is what drives me to want to find a set of rules that will do just that with regard to the efforts of writers and inventors.

Isn’t it only natural that the originators of these things get rewarded for their efforts? Of course, it’s possible for such a person to just give it away and rely on fate to return the favor. In that case well tough luck if it doesn’t work out.

Of course, under certain special circumstances whatever underlying replicator(s) were responsible may get the rewarded anyway, so I wouldn’t matter. Sharing the knowledge of how to make fire with your close relatives and clan being an example of that. However, such a strategy is susceptable to freeloading by replicators that should not benefit.

There are other reasons why this might not matter either. In fact some people make that argument “If every one just shares the ideas then everyone will be better off.” This does work but only under special circumstances. This is a form of reciprocal altruism. But is very vulerable to invasion by freeloaders.

In any case there are different strategies and being able to control your inventions allows you to pursue more direct payoffs and therefore more direct strategies. Direct payoffs are less prone to freeloaders and cheaters.

Communism fails for failing to take these things into account amoung other things.

BTW, I can show that slavery is bad for you (and your ancestors) in the long run if you are trying to enslave members of the same species as yourself. I’ve been thinking of all this stuff for a long time and it all seems to fit together nicely. Unfortunately or fortunately I found that these ideas do give some “leftist” arguments a certain amount of traction.

There is a kernal of truth in some of the “bad” stuff like taxing capital. Think about our forebearers living the tribal life and one guy finds the motherload. Isn’t that going to attract outsiders attention and doesn’t the tribe carry the burden of defending him? I don’t think it unreasonable they should expect him to spread the wealth. I don’t think those conditions hold anymore, plus we’ve new social technologies to get around that issue, but it has a kernel of truth.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 6:30 PM

Cosmin,

You claim sarcasm but I don’t know what to make of your writings. You make the utterly absurd claim that you can just cross your fingers when you sign a copyright contract. Why shouldn’t I believe that you think you can cross your fingers when you sign any kind of contract, including a sales contract.

You’ve really painted yourself into an intellectual corner as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 6:34 PM

“If you (as a finder in your scenario) are not a legal owner of the mislaid book – than your use of that book (evidenced by reproduction) is a trespass or unauthorized use. There is no need for contract in order to establish that someone used your property without authorization. Any injuries committed during the course of this trespass constitute a property tort.”

Yeah right. Certainly I’m allowed to handle the book while its on my property, right? —- or is there a little envelope of someone-else’s-private-propertyness around it? And if I can handle it, why can’t I open it? Anyone who would make the distinction between handling the book and opening it to access the sweet sweet ideas within (save for searching for the original purchaser’s name, of course — ha ha) must already be an IP proponent. Hence, you are question begging. My only obligation is to return the book to you in the condition in which you left it, period … if even that … hard to tell what free-market law would have to say about lost books — we are talking about a free market, right?

… and I can just make copy after copy even when your book is returned to you. Am I still “using” your book when you have it back in your hot little hands? That would be interesting. Of course, I’m just using the ideas “per se” and not the book itself (which is all you *really* own).

But frankly, since you’re not advocating force or a state, I don’t really care if you think your scheme will work. The free-market will quickly dispense with all of the bad ideas (and your scheme is an amalgam of many). We haven’t even begun to discuss the mind-bending issues of tracking and counting the copies and copies of unauthorized copies (who counts and how?), truly “lost” books (as opposed to “mislaid”), fee assessment, the impact your scheme would have on book sales, and on and on …

Posted by: Fred Mann at December 29, 2006 6:47 PM

Greg,

“If you want to prove the existence of a God or that ideas are property, then it is for you to prove the positive assertion, not for the doubters to disprove it.”

Neither Sasha nor I believe “ideas” are property. You are not paying very good attention for someone who dismisses others ideas as “rubbish” and “crank doctrine”. Funny thing is that copyright law resembles our “crank doctrine” much closer than yours. Must be a lot of cranks like us out there.

“BM>”
Hey! I resent the use of that abbreviation to refer to me for scatological reasons. 😉

After all these words, I can’t spot a spark clear foundational thinking on the part of IP proponents. So to ask them to “clarify” a main point built on a sand foundation seems like a waste of time. However, it is amusing at times.

My philosophical beliefs are NOT foundationalist so good luck with that.

BM> I think the people on this thread did not even understand Sasha.
Greg response 1): “I am guilty as charged! {laughs}”
BM> I have yet to even see the anti-IP readers on this tread even comprehend what Sasha and I are saying.
Greg response 2): I comprehend it for what it is: rubbish.

Aren’t your two responses contradictory? How can you both not understand something and comprehend it as rubbish?

Oh, yeah I really feel shamed by someone who came up with this howler: ”I will simply point out that a collectivist approach to property will not be convincing to many Mises.org bloggers.” You don’t even know the difference between collectivism and collective ownership. Shows what a bright bulb you are.

There are a zillion crank doctrines to rebuke. Why spend a lot of effort on this one, especially without pay? Who outside the Mises blog is going to give 2 seconds of attention to what your views are?

So go away, troll. You think someone’s paying me to respond to your disruptive nonsense. I will be ignoring you from now on based on your own admission that you are not interested in actually supporting your case. I don’t mind discussing thing with honest people but not someone like you.

Let me also point out that it is you and not me that needs the attention to get his way. Copyright law already is fairly close to how I would have it.

Nor is libertarianism (or anarchism) mainstream by any stretch of the imagination. Have you ever heard of throwing stones around glass houses? Be careful lest ye be labeled a crank.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 7:12 PM

Fred,
“Yeah right. Certainly I’m allowed to handle the book while its on my property, right? —- or is there a little envelope of someone-else’s-private-propertyness around it? And if I can handle it, why can’t I open it? Anyone who would make the distinction between handling the book and opening it to access the sweet sweet ideas within (save for searching for the original purchaser’s name, of course — ha ha) must already be an IP proponent.”

Well as a matter of fact you can’t open the book and read it. That would be “using the book” and quite unneccesary to what should be your main concern which should be returning it to it’s rightful owner.

That little envelope of private propertyness is in herent in the quite obvious fact it belongs to someone else. Do you think that if you find someone elses property you are therefore free to use it? What gives you that idea. You mean to tell me that if I lean my bike up against a pole to go into the store you are just going to walk up to it, get on and start riding it around?

I’m absolutely sure if you have a sister that kept a diary you found then she’s still mad at you about it. What gives you the idea you can just read a book you found? The owner might not normally care but that doesn’t mean you have the right.

Don’t you get it? It’s not your property. It can’t get much simpler than that.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 7:21 PM

Fred,
“The free-market will quickly dispense with all of the bad ideas (and your scheme is an amalgam of many). We haven’t even begun to discuss the mind-bending issues of tracking and counting the copies and copies of unauthorized copies (who counts and how?), truly “lost” books (as opposed to “mislaid”), fee assessment, the impact your scheme would have on book sales, and on and on …

It’s already implemented and doesn’t seem to be a problem. Like any crime it can be dealt with one offender at a time. There is no issue with “lost” vs. “mislaid”. You still don’t understand if you think that. No more an issue than with any other “lost” vs. “mislaid” property. No impact on books sales as already proven in practice, and so on and on.

If I write a hundred page novel and copyright it then find out someone is distributing unauthorized copies en mass it’s easy for me to go after them and easy for me to prove that I am the originator. Or don’t you understand the concept of the odds of two people coming up with the exact same string of letters that would span a hundred pages, or even one page. It would be more accurate than DNA evidence.

Enforcement is the problem of the writer and not a concern of yours. If you’ve noticed they are even going after single copy cheaters on the internet. Any copying of a magnitude of concern for the owner of the copyright is bound to be tracible. It requires advertizing like any other mass scale enterprise.

Save your crocodile tears of pity for someone else. The copyright holder doesn’t need them. Even in an anarchist society. I’m sure J. K. Rowling can afford to send her private protection agency after you to make an example for others.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 7:35 PM

Greg,

I explained my position effectively as evidence by your frustration and a persistent need to reply on my posts when you have nothing to say about this topic.

—-

Cosmin,

It is not my fault that you have difficulties with your logic, but there is no need for such frustration.

If you say that a seller is selling his product – for some asked price and some condition – that means that this condition is part of this market exchange. Legally and logically that is the clear case:
You cannot “discount” your exchange price by not “touching your mustache WHILE MAKING USE” in your example… or by refusing to fulfill the condition of painting fence in my example.

I am sorry if you are differently able and still confused by all this – but it is not my fault, and there is no need for insults (it is kind of funny when someone of your abilities you uses the word “retarded’ for someone else)

—-

Frd Mann,

In common law, if you find a mislaid property, like a coat or a book – there does not have to be a “ittle envelope of someone-else’s-private-propertyness around it.” It is someone’s property – and you know it’s not yours. I’m sorry that you don’t know this, but if you are not the owner of that mislaid item, your unauthorized use is known as trespass. Any injury you cause by this action will be the case of tort.

It is so very simple and I don’t understand why you still keep replying and saying nothing meaningful. Regardless of what you claim, copyright contracts would work as long as we have our private property rights that allow such contract.

—

Brian Macker,

Nope. Ownership does not imply liability for maintenance. It all depends on your contract wit someone who rents.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 7:47 PM

Copyright is not about co-ownership (equal property rights), nor it’s about uneven shares of the same physical property.

Call it what you want but it’s not equal property rights. In fact it already has a misnomer. It’s called intellectual property rights. Problem is that it goes to far and really attempt to provide ownership over an “idea”.

” It is about one person (the author) having total property rights, while some other person is allowed to use that book in certain ways (“non-commercial”) determined by contract.”

That’s not my understanding. Total property rights would include the right to dispose of the property, move the property about, store it, use it, dispose of it, sell it, destroy it, bury it, etc. The author does not retain such rights over a book when he sells it to the buyer. In fact if the author of any of the books I own came over and tried to assert such rights I would tell him to take a hike.

As you’ve said the contract could contain any conditions. Why can’t the contract say the buyer has all those rights except the seller retains the right to copy the book. It would be a hell of a lot easier to sell the book. Plus the seller doesn’t care to retain those rights.

” Dividing ownership based on possible “uses” is problematic. You can divide a piece of land or anything physical – but you cannot divide physical property based on possible “uses.”

Problematic, but it happens all the time. Think encumbrances, rights of way, etc.

” Such division would imply that you actually own two different types of “uses” and that you can somehow split them between two owners. “

You can in many cases. Why not? Especially when one person holds the title to allow something to be done with the object that cannot be done without owning both titles. Like I might hold an encumberence against raising chickens on my neighbors property. I can’t raise chickens there and neither can he. What about a right of way where I am only allowed to cross but you can do anything except restrict access? Doesn’t need to be co-equal either.

We might set up a hunting lodge that has different classes of membership based on the kind of animal being hunted there. Thus a crow hunting membership and a deer hunting one. We might issue a limited amount of each but not the same amount and not at the same price.

Heck this is common with stocks. There are common stocks and differing classes of preferred stock.

“You cannot accuse your ‘co-owner’ or other parties of trespass based on your control/ownership of any potential ‘uses’ – because that is a self-contradictory slave-ownership.”

You lost me. If I owned an encumbrance on your ability to raise chickens on your property then why couldn’t I accuse you of raising them and stop you. How is that self-contradictory or slave ownership?

The same goes for if someone with a right of way on my property tries to build a house there or if I own a right of way and the property owner tries to build a fence. Our co-use of the property is not contradictory until such time as one of us tries to violate the contract.

The same goes for the hunting club. If we catch someone who holds a crow hunting membership downing a deer then we take action.

”This is not a legal way to establish ‘copyright,’ although your understanding of its implications is sound and your criticism of anarcho-communists is great.”

I’m not convinced by your arguments about co-ownership. I’m also concerned now that I made an assumption that I shouldn’t have. Are you lawyer or even a law student? How come you don’t know about these kinds of co-ownership contracts? Maybe you didn’t recognize them as such? They really are you know. Is there some other legal term for them?

”I don’t know if I explained my position clearly, but this is not a simple matter. “

I haven’t seen any explanation. Perhaps it was on another thread. I had no idea you thought the contract would make the copyright holder the full owner of the book. That’s not what Rothbard had suggested if I recall correctly. It’s been awhile. I don’t understand how you sue “fourth” and “fifth” parties.

We are talking about difference between libertarian “negative obligations” (prohibiting some uses of your own property) versus quasi-ownership based on permitted “uses”.

I don’t understand what you mean. Can’t be that hard to explain, or provide a link to. Heck, you are claiming a contract can be written based on this. Go ahead and write one. You can simplify as I’m not going to be picky. Here’s mine:

“X the seller agrees to relinquish all ownership rights over said book except one. The seller retains an encumbrance over the book that prevents the buyer, any of his heirs, or beneficiaries from coping the book. This encumbrance is in the form of a separate unary document, which applies to any other copies of this book that are sold by the copyright holder under a duplicate of this contract. The encumbrance document, henceforth know as “The Copyright” is to be considered a contract that can be bought and sold in it’s own right. The existence of the copyright has been marked upon the property being sold and may not be removed. The copyright itself is registered and stored by a private title company. The property shall not be provided to other parties outside the boundaries of this contract. Should the property be abandoned in a way that does not destroy its usefulness then ownership of the object will revert back to the copyright holder. That is, unless the abandoned object is found by a person willing to abide by the copyright.“

I’m not a lawyer but you get the drift.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 8:32 PM

Sasha,
The book would have something in it to the effect:
“@Copyright 2006 Registered with title company X. This book originally authored by so-and-so and the current copyright holder at time of publication is so-and-so. If this book is lost and the owner cannot be found the title to the book reverts to the current copyright owner. If you wish to abide by the terms of the copyright then you may assume title unilaterally upon failure to discover the books owner.”

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 8:41 PM

I am not familiar enough with law to translate my understanding into legalese.

Neither is Sasha, obviously. The only actual lawyer posting in this thread, AFAIK, is Sasha’s bête noir: Stephan Kinsella.

From my novice point of view someone taking a book off the beach he didn’t own and copying it is trespass.

What if he dropped it overboard while on a ship, and it washed up on the beach?

From an economics viewpoint I do understand that all the copies that result are “product” that is rightfully do to the owner of the copyright.

Hmm. So if we assume that such a thing as “copyright” exists, and has an owner…we can prove that copyright exists and has an owner! Wow! This is much better logic than Kinsella’s!

You just never paid me for that right with regard to something I own that happens to reside in the computer.

Again, you’re just assuming it is something you own. If all you can do on this thread is repeat “if I own X then I own X”, that seems rather pointless. The question is do you own X? Stephan has presented a rather demonstration that you don’t. You and Sasha don;t like that for some reason (probably because you confuse property with selling stuff, and think that if you can’t sell as much or at such a price you’re being “robbed”), so just keep asserting that you do, ad infinitum. (Well, no: Sasha keeps saying he doesn’t and then he does and then he doesn’t: you can’t own ideas, oh but if the idea’s in a book, you own the idea, but I never said you can own ideas…) All this talk of contracts and so on is just so much blather to cover up that you’re just making raw assumptions. Sione has tried to get Sasha to explain (and thereby recognize) his assumptions, but Sasha just blows him off.

Posted by: Peter at December 29, 2006 8:58 PM

Brian,

You misunderstood the logical problem of dividing property based on ownership of someone’s use of it. Our shared ownership of a house cannot be divided based on types of activities (use) that someone may have in it… We can only divide it based on percentage of total ownership of a physical item.

But first of all, drop the term “co-ownership”, since it means “equal ownership rights over the same item.” Since you are familiar what this term means, there is no excuse of using it any further in the context of what you now try to explain. You said you’re not convinced about my arguments about co-ownership. FINE – please look it up in any textbook, legal dictionary, wherever.

I also said that copyright is about one person (the author) having total property rights, while some other person is allowed to use that book in certain ways (“non-commercial”) determined by contract.
To which you responded: “That’s not my understanding. Total property rights would include the right to dispose of the property, move the property about, store it, use it, dispose of it, sell it, destroy it, bury it, etc.”

Yes you are allowed to “move, destroy, bury it…,” but you are not allowed to “reproduce it, publicly broadcast it, upload it on the internet, et cetera.”
But you missed my point. If someone who sells the use of DVD states that they are for personal use only – that does not imply that he owns any “commercial use”. You cannot “own” everyone’s “use.” Instead, you own the DVD, but you choose to allow only certain uses of it (big difference in terms of what you own).

You say: “Think encumbrances, rights of way, etc.” I don’t think you understand these terms either. Encumbrances are your duties to be paid – but they don’t take away the ownership title. “Right of way” also proves my point – you can use someone else’s property, but you don’t get the ownership of “use”

I don’t have time or patience to read the rest of the stuff that is based on a false notion that use of someone’s property like “right of way” implies co-ownership over some property.

I saw you asked me how am I “going to sue fourth or fifth parties”. That’s just misunderstanding of basic tort when it comes to any injury. You do not sue those that are not responsible to direct injury to you. Third party will responsible for everything he did to my buyer – and than this third party will have a case against someone else if his liability is caused by someone’s trespass against him… and so on.

—–

Peter,

Unfortunately for you, Mr. Stephan Kinsella (who could not apply the definition of “theft” here http://blog.mises.org/archives/005713.asp and made some mistakes with basic concepts like “scarcity” and “human action”) explained this in our previous discussion:

You cannot unilaterally change the conditions of some exchange. You can’t say – I crossed my fingers when we bargained – and now I will withhold my part of the deal.

You may think you made a mistake – but you cannot refuse to deliver someone else’s goods or services, just because you think you made a bad deal – ex post facto.

The fact that you struggle with these simple concepts only show your incredible ignorance. By the way, Sione did not try to get me to explain anything meaningful. He was trying to get the definition of “property” after which he wanted the definition of “own”, than he would probably ask for definition of “individual”… That’s just insane.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 9:30 PM

Tell me, Sasha, is my wording of the same situation wrong, or are the 2 equivalent? Because if they do amount to the same thing, you could stop stubbornly hanging on to your version at least for the sake of advancing the conversation. Since you do hang on to your version, it must be because you see a difference. Tell me then why my interpretation of the transaction is wrong. I dare you.
Here’s why I think your interpretation is wrong. You say:
“If you say that a seller is selling his product – for some asked price and some condition – that means that this condition is part of this market exchange.”
I say:
That seller is thinking he’s selling a product with a certain condition attached to it for a certain price. In truth, he’s selling a certain product with no condition attached to it for that same exact price. Or, he’s licensing (renting, leasing, whatever…) a product with a certain condition attached to it for a certain price, all the while fraudulently misrepresenting himself as a seller of said product.
If there is a lapse of logic in there, I’d like you to point it out for me.

Brian said:
“Funny thing is that copyright law resembles our “crank doctrine” much closer than yours.”
“Copyright law already is fairly close to how I would have it.”
“It’s already implemented and doesn’t seem to be a problem.”
Rothbard says that kind of argument is crap. http://www.mises.org/story/2429
It’s on the first page since a couple of days ago…
“If you’ve noticed they are even going after single copy cheaters on the internet.”
Yes… the excesses of government are awesome arguments for your position. More please!

“X the seller agrees to relinquish all ownership rights over said book except one. The seller retains an encumbrance over the book that prevents the buyer, any of his heirs, or beneficiaries from coping the book.”
That guy is no seller. He’s a renter or licenser. And a fraud, if he presents himself as a seller.

Also, Brian, since you seem so hung up on the “fingers crossed” wording, let me rephrase the original comment in a more clear way:
Person A has Product X for sale. Person A imposes condition M as necessary to the transaction.
Person B wants Product X. Person B doesn’t want to be subject to condition M. Person B dismissively promises to abide by M in order to avoid wasting time arguing with a deranged individual, knowing full well Person A has no right to impose conditions on the use of Product X in a property exchange transaction (sale). Person B then leaves and enjoys use of Product X.
Person A finds out person B didn’t satisfy condition M. He demands reparations.
Person B contends Person A had no right to set conditions (other than payment for acquisition) that would limit the use of Product X by Person B in the first place, unless specified at the beginning that he was not selling, but merely renting the Product X.

Posted by: Cosmin at December 29, 2006 10:08 PM

Peter,
“Again, you’re just assuming it is something you own.”
Wrong. I gave a detailed explanation of how I come to own them. I own things produced with my capital. It’s as simple as that. My ownership of the capital was established by my owning the raw materials from which I created that capital (productive good).

It’s very straightforward. If I own some iron and form it into a mold that can make an identical mold then I own that mold. If you steal my mold and use it to make an identical mold then I still own my original and also am partial owner in the created mold. You used my capital to make that second mold.

This is very a very simple concept. My ownership is justified in exactly the same way that it would be in the case of you breaking into my factory to produce something.

You know I can use the same ridiculous arguments you guys are using to show that you don’t own anything. I can just keep stating that you are assuming you own something when that is in fact the question at hand.

Very simple. There are no property rights. Prove there are! (ok now whatever you say I will just reply “You are just assuming you own it”.) We will then get nowhere. If you don’t accept basic principles there is no way to prove anything. You guys apparently don’t believe that capitalists own the product produced by their own capital, you don’t believe people can jointly own things, and you believe whatever you touch is yours so long as the owner is not around.

I have established copyrights from basic accepted principles and you guys either can’t understand that or are unwilling to admit it.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 10:17 PM

Sasha,

First you say the author has total property rights in the book. I then list all the things that would count as total property rights. They you say “yes” and act as if you were talking about the buyer of the book.

I say the buyer has total property rights except for the copying, while the author has next to no rights in the book. You’ve got it backwards or something.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 10:30 PM

“I say the buyer has total property rights except for the copying, while the author has next to no rights in the book. You’ve got it backwards or something.”

The buyer has total property rights, no exceptions. If he doesn’t have the right to copy, he’s not a buyer. He’s a renter or something.
You’re saying noone can buy a book. I’m OK with that. If that’s the sort of transaction people want to involve themselves in, more power to them.

Posted by: Cosmin at December 29, 2006 10:39 PM

I can’t believe what I am forced to explain on Austrian blog…

Cosmin,

I am not stubbornly hanging on anything – I am only telling you legal facts based on simple logic.

You said:
—–
That seller is thinking he’s selling a product with a certain condition attached to it for a certain price. In truth, he’s selling a certain product with no condition attached to it for that same exact price.
—–

You don’t seem to understand what you just said. You say that seller is “thinking” that he is selling a product with some conditions attached to asked monetary price.

The question in such legal issue is following: why does this seller thinks that he arranged the exchange based on this condition (which is a part of his total exchange value)?

Well, if he only imagined or hallucinated that his buyer accepted some additional terms of exchange – than you are absolutely correct. In that case, he is selling his product with no special conditions attached to price and he should seek professional help for his psychosis.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if we stick with your original example and if we find that the seller thought that he is entitled to something more than monetary compensation – because the buyer made a contractual promise that he will provide it in exchange for that product (it is a product in this case, and no Sione, I’m confusing definitions of “property” with “product”) THAN THE BUYER COMMITED A FRAUD – and he will be responsible for theft if he does not correct his liability. You cannot unilaterally change the terms of already completed market exchange.

In this second case, the buyer got this seller’s product only because he legally transferred property title on his money and services to be delivered at some later day. He cannot be allowed to commit the fraud by not delivering promised services. That would mean the end of private property rights… imagine if Pizza Hut takes your order for a pizza and chicken-wings and charges you in advance – and than just delivers you a pizza, claiming that your agreement did not have chicken attached…

Cosmin, I just hope you are joking…

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 10:45 PM

To quote Stephan Kinsella:

——
“Let me give a clearer example that you cannot worm out of. We agree that I will buy your hunk of cheese for a dollar. The agreement is that if and when I tender my dollar, the cheese becomes mine. Now, I lay down my dollar… According to Rothbard and me, the cheese is now mine, wehther you like it or not. Title to it has already shifted to me. So if you refuse to hand it over, you are now in possession of my property without my consent–that’s trespass.”
——-

I hope Peter likes this one!

In other words:

You cannot accept terms of exchange just “to avoid wasting time arguing with a deranged individual,” as Cosmin stated and shocked everyone who is sane. If you exchange ownership titles with someone and you obligate yourself to provide some service – in order to get his product – than you cannot “change your mind” by not providing your end of this market exchange. Try doing that in Hertz or Avis.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 29, 2006 10:57 PM

Cosmin,

Person B dismissively promises to abide by M in order to avoid wasting time arguing with a deranged individual, knowing full well Person A has no right to impose conditions on the use of Product X in a property exchange transaction (sale).

This is called fraud. If you are a libertarian then you’ve violated your premises. You’ve signed a contract without having any intent in holding up your end of the bargain. If you think the contract is invalid because it is somehow illegal then you shouldn’t enter into the contract in the first place.

This is exactly the same as “crossing ones fingers”. That’s the whole point of crossing ones fingers, to justify fraud.

If you believe you can do this then you believe in fraud and the “Avis Play” is accurate. All you’ve done is changed the use of crossing ones fingers as a rational for believing the contract is void to the demonizing the other party as deranged.

So in the play just substitute the part about crossing the fingers with you exclaiming to the Avis rental representative “I only signed the contract to avoid wasting time arguing with a deranged individual, knowing full well Avis has no right to impose conditions of return on a car sale”. That’ll fly.

Where do you get this deranged idea you can sign contracts without abiding by them when you recieved goods in exchange?

You know that I have worked with breeding animals before and if you are sold an animal with breeding rights they charge you more. They can also sell you a spayed animal for less. The price differential is your compensation for abiding by the terms of the contract, “NO COPYING!”

I’m sure if I was sold an early copy of Harry Potter along with the right to copy it would cost a hell of a lot more than the normal price of ~$20 for the copyrighted version.

BTW, Peter, Rothbards objections to government have nothing to do with the rejection of property rights. Rothbard objected to the governments monopoly on coercion and involuntary taxation. I’ve read “Man, Economy, State” and several other of his books. I saw nothing that ruled out copyrights. He even has written on why he thought copyrights are the way to go.

I don’t have time to read your link but I did scan it for the word “copyright” and it was nowhere to be found. Nor the term “intellectual”. I looked for all uses of the term property and none address intellectual property.

At the end he says, “There are other problems of the basic law code which there is no time to go into here: for example, the definition of just property titles”. This sentence indicates to me that he did not address the issue at all.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 11:01 PM

BTW, you guys are totally wrong on Rothbard. Go here which is chapter 10 of “Man, Economy, and State” and search for the section titled “7. Patents and Copyrights”. Read it an weep.

He thinks copyrights are applicable to inventions.

In fact he says “The crucial distinction between patents and copyrights, then, is not that one is mechanical and the other literary. The fact that they have been applied that way is an historical accident and does not reveal the critical difference between them.[96]The cru­cial difference is that copyright is a logical attribute of property right on the free market, while patent is a monopoly invasion of that right.”

I was tempted to start posting quotes from Rothbard as my own so you’d essentially be arguing with Rothbard. But frankly I don’t have the time.

Here’s a bunch of Rothbard’s quotes from this section (no more of this text was written by me but I did bold the important points so people with less time can quickly see I’m right. Seems he agrees with me and not with you.):

Turning now to patents and copyrights, we ask: Which of the two, if either, is consonant with the purely free market, and which is a grant of monopoly privilege by the State? In this part, we have been analyzing the economics of the purely free market, where the individual person and property are not subject to mo­lestation. It is therefore important to decide whether patents or copyrights will obtain in the purely free, noninvasive society, or whether they are a function of government interference.

Almost all writers have bracketed patents and copyrights to­gether. Most have considered both as grants of exclusive mo­nopoly privilege by the State; a few have considered both as part and parcel of property right on the free market. But almost everyone has considered patents and copyrights as equivalent: the one as conferring an exclusive property right in the field of me­chanical inventions, the other as conferring an exclusive right in the field of literary creations.[93] Yet this bracketing of patents and copyrights is wholly fallacious; the two are completely different in relation to the free market.

It is true that a patent and a copyright are both exclusive property rights and it is also true that they are both property rights in innovations. But there is a crucial difference in their legal enforcement. If an author or a composer believes his copy­right is being infringed, and he takes legal action, he must “prove that the defendant had ‘access’ to the work allegedly infringed. If the defendant produces something identical with the plaintiff’s work by mere chance, there is no infringement.”[94] Copyrights, in other words, have their basis in prosecution of implicit theft.

We have seen in chapter 2 that the acid test by which we judge whether or not a certain practice or law is or is not consonant with the free market is this: Is the outlawed practice implicit or explicit theft? If it is, then the free market would outlaw it; if not, then its outlawry is itself government interference in the free market. Let us consider copyright. A man writes a book or composes music. When he publishes the book or sheet of music, he imprints on the first page the word “copyright.” This indicates that any man who agrees to purchase this product also agrees as part of the exchange not to recopy or reproduce this work for sale. In other words, the author does not sell his property out­right to the buyer; he sells it on condition that the buyer not reproduce it for sale. Since the buyer does not buy the property outright, but only on this condition, any infringement of the con­tract by him or a subsequent buyer is implicit theft and would be treated accordingly on the free market. The copyright is there­fore a logical device of property right on the free market.

The patent is incompatible with the free market precisely to the extent that it goes beyond the copyright. The man who has not bought a machine and who arrives at the same invention in­dependently, will, on the free market, be perfectly able to use and sell his invention. Patents prevent a man from using his in­vention even though all the property is his and he has not stolen the invention, either explicitly or implicitly, from the first in­ventor. Patents, therefore, are grants of exclusive monopoly priv­ilege by the State and are invasive of property rights on the mar­ket.

The crucial distinction between patents and copyrights, then, is not that one is mechanical and the other literary. The fact that they have been applied that way is an historical accident and does not reveal the critical difference between them.[96]The cru­cial difference is that copyright is a logical attribute of property right on the free market, while patent is a monopoly invasion of that right.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 11:23 PM

To B. Macker, greg and others:

My main point about the purple apple was to differentiate between tradition physical property rights and intellectual property rights than issues about patents and copyrights.

Technically property rights are primarily about the issue of theft, right? The tradition view of why theft is bad is because it deprived the owner of the object and its usage. Hence if a person stole a purple apple the farmer would have one less to sell and be a loss. Similarly, B. Macker, your scenario of the driver who fills up a fuel tank with petrol and driving off without paying also mean the owner has been deprived of fuel to sell and is at a loss. I think there are still cases in which the onus of proof is whether the owner has lost out due to an alleged theft. For example: if you B. Macker had a laptop on the beach connected to the Internet (with a plan for unlimited downloads), you leave it, I stroll along use your computer to surf the Internet for stuff which is neither copyrighted nor illegal and then walk away, you’d have a hard time in court trying to prove I stole anything on the grounds that I didn’t deprive you of anything. You could get me on a charge on trespass (which I suppose is another property right issue too, eep!) but not theft.

On other hand, the copying of information does NOT deprive the owner of any physical material, such as the person who finds a book on the beach and scans it into his computer. This then I presume where intellectual property came into existence inasmuchas the owner strictly speaking wasn’t deprived, but the thief has obtained a good to which he wasn’t entitled to get for free.

Nonetheless I gave an example of a purple apple, as opposed to an existing apples, on the grounds of if someone bought the apple, saved the seeds, planted them, obtained their own purple apples from their hard work, green thumbs and TLC, should the farmer have any right to own ‘purple apples and their seeds’ totally? Or does the farmer only have the right to grow and market like anyone else?

But the rest of yous get endlessly debate about what the type of enforcement should be and stuff . . .

Posted by: Sam at December 29, 2006 11:37 PM

Cosmin,

You say:
“The buyer has total property rights, no exceptions. If he doesn’t have the right to copy, he’s not a buyer. He’s a renter or something.
You’re saying noone can buy a book. I’m OK with that. If that’s the sort of transaction people want to involve themselves in, more power to them.”

Rothbard replies:
“This indicates that any man who agrees to purchase this product also agrees as part of the exchange not to recopy or reproduce this work for sale. In other words, the author does not sell his property out­right to the buyer; he sells it on condition that the buyer not reproduce it for sale. Since the buyer does not buy the property outright, but only on this condition, any infringement of the con­tract by him or a subsequent buyer is implicit theft and would be treated accordingly on the free market. The copyright is there­fore a logical device of property right on the free market.”

See Rothbard still refers to the fellow as the buyer even though he “does not buy the property outright, but only on this condition”.

He then goes on to speak of finger crossers.

” any infringement of the con­tract by him [the buyer] or a subsequent buyer is implicit theft and would be treated accordingly on the free market”

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 29, 2006 11:55 PM

I know you guys think I’m some novice interloper but I self studied Autrian Ecomomics for a half decade or more. I’ve read many works by many of the Austrians. A shitload of books. Skousen, Rothbard, Mises, Reisman, Hayek, Hazett and Hoppe. I think only single volumes by Hoppe but for the rest several to many works. I vaguely remember reading Kirzner too but can’t recall.

That’s why I know exactly where to look for quotes to counter these nonsense claims that Rothbard was anti-copyright. He wasn’t and furthermore thought they could be applied to inventions. BTW, I have read Roderick Longs, and Kinsellas articles in the past and did not find them to be convincing then and I doubt my opinion have changed. I haven’t heard any new arguments in this area in a while.

It’s all nonsense about how costly to enforce, how it has bad roots, how it suppresses innovation, and the like. All utterly irrelavent to the point of whether copyrights are free market friendly.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 30, 2006 12:01 AM

Sam,

No the farmer does not have the exclusive right to purple apples and their seeds, because I could invent my own strain of purple apples without ever using one of his.

You however could not grow purple apples from his seeds if you had signed a copyright to that effect. Nor could the next buyer, and of course no one who stole seeds from your apple could either.

The farmer does not own the “idea” of purple apples.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 30, 2006 12:07 AM

To Brian Macker:

I asked the question on a moral/proverbial Libertian scale of ‘SHOULD’ the farmer have any rights to the purple apples other than his own hard work and selling? In a proverbial Libertarian world would the farmer be expected to own the seeds as well?

I wasn’t asking in the current legal setting for patents and copyrights.

Posted by: Sam at December 30, 2006 12:18 AM

Sam,

I already cover the issue of “depriving of property” and that is not the test for whether you are violating someones property rights.

I think there is more that you don’t understand based on reading your last post. I will address one issue but there were several errors.

Suppose I have a press and a mold that goes in it. The mold is capable of producing 100,000 objects before it wears out. Raw plastic is a penny an ounce, and the mold makes an object weighing an ounce that can sell for one dollar. Lets also suppose that it costs one cent to run the press once. If I stick the plastic in the mold and use the press then the raw material and press account for two cents of the value of the object and the mold for the remainder ninty eight cents. So my mold can produce a total value of $980,000 over it’s lifetime.

You seem to think that you can come in and use the mold once and I have not lost any value. Nonsense, you have stole $0.98 from me at a minimum. That’s if you never copy it. However if you take this stolen item from me it is very easy to create another mold from it. We I to sell an such an item for copying purposes I would require a much higher price. I would charge you something on the order of $980,000 and not $1 for such an item. Even though it is a physically identical item the contractual agreement makes a difference in the value.

You are familiar with the fact that the same potato can have different values depending on location right? A potato buried in the field is worth a small fraction of the value of one in the market and even less than the same one baked an on a plate at the restaurant.

Well the same principle applies here. A plastic unit from which you can make a mold is more valuable from the same shaped object from which you cannot. Suppose that the reason for this was physical instead of contractual. Suppose like the “mission impossible” tape that the plastic object would self distruct if an attempt were maded to copy it. Then certainly it would be of less value than one that didn’t.

So when you steal the plastic object with the intent to make a mold of it you are actually stealing an item of much higher value. A good metric for how much value you have stolen is precisely how many copies you end up making with it. Potentially, the number is unlimited but in reality the market will bear only so many. This calculation would have to be determined in the most fair way possible. The only think that isn’t under doubt is that you stole from me.

 

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 30, 2006 12:26 AM

Well I better go to bed. My wife has off for the next few days and she’ll kill me if I spend that time on the computer. I might sneak a peek but I’m not going to be able to spend lots of time responding.

I still got no answer on if Sasha was a lawyer or studing law, or has a kid sister who is a law clerk or what? When I offer the fact that “I’m no lawyer” I sort of expect a reply of “Me neither” or “Well I am”. Silence on the subject seems to be a lie of omission. For now I am assuming Sasha doesn’t know anything more about the law than he found on the internet.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 30, 2006 12:32 AM

Isn’t that what I said B. Macker? In times long ago, the days of products being made from individual hand-power, meant that copying an object would take just as much effort, if not more, than just buying the darn thing? The only viable alternative was actually outright thieve the object. Hence theft was measured through the loss to the ye olde property owner.

However nowadays when information, in particular, can be mass-copied through electronic impulses means the old notion has to be thrown out and the new measure is: has someone obtained that which they didn’t/shouldn’t have the right to access without some sort of a fee.

I thought, to a certain extent, I was sort of agreeing with you that notion of protecting property rights has been slightly modified over time to close off certain loopholes of theft.

Posted by: Sam at December 30, 2006 12:41 AM

Brian said: “Silence on the subject seems to be a lie of omission.”

I don’t have time to read all of your long texts, especially not after your co-ownership errors or that funny attempt with the airplane “liability”…

I didn’t know you asked me whether I’m a lawyer… And I don’t care what you expect as my response when you say something that everyone knows (like it was a secret before you said it). No, I’m not a lawyer. Economics is my field.

BTW,
You didn’t even understand the problem with claiming the “ownership” over everyone’s use and how it’s different from real property rights that are based on negative obligations of others. Maybe I should have listened to Sione and just list some basic definitions.

——

Sam said:

“On other hand, the copying of information does NOT deprive the owner of any physical material, such as the person who finds a book on the beach and scans it into his computer.”

I couldn’t read everything Brian Mackler wrote… but I think that no one here claimed that “copying of information” deprives the owner of any physical material.

I claimed something completely different – that by violating terms of use and not providing the damages that were specified in contract (as a part of exchange) you are indeed depriving the owner of his property. The owner has the property title on these damages, which amount to the amount of all unauthorized copies and/or profits they yield.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 30, 2006 1:00 AM

Sasha: By the way, Sione did not try to get me to explain anything meaningful. He was trying to get the definition of “property” after which he wanted the definition of “own”, than he would probably ask for definition of “individual”… That’s just insane.

You claimed something was property. Sione asked “what makes something property” and you said “ownership makes property”, which is pretty much a non-response, prompting Sione to ask “OK, so what defines ownership?”. He’s clearly trying to get you to explain your underlying theory about what kind of things can be property, what property is, etc. I assumed you were smart enough to understand that and were just dodging the question, but you really don’t get it.

Brian: Wrong. I gave a detailed explanation of how I come to own them. I own things produced with my capital. It’s as simple as that. My ownership of the capital was established by my owning the raw materials from which I created that capital (productive good).

It’s not “as simple as that”. Actually, it’s simpler than that: you own the raw materials, thus you continue to own the same materials after your “productive step”; your “ownership of capital” has absolutely no impact on the situation. But that doesn’t explain your purported ownership of other people’s raw materials that undergo a similar “productive step”.

It’s very straightforward. If I own some iron and form it into a mold that can make an identical mold then I own that mold.

Agreed.

If you steal my mold and use it to make an identical mold then I still own my original and also am partial owner in
the created mold.

This is your unwarranted assumption. I’m guilty of theft, sure; you should get your original mold back, at least, and if we accept Rothbard’s “two eyes for an eye” doctrine, a second mold would be fine compensation. But if I’ve made 50 copies, you only get one of them; the other 49 are wholely mine.

Very simple. There are no property rights. Prove there are! (ok now whatever you say I will just reply “You are just assuming you own it”.) We will then get nowhere.

Assume there are no property rights. Then you have no right to eat the food that keeps you alive, for instance. Therefore you’re dead and not in a position to engage this argument. Since you’re not dead, you must accept that it is possible to obtain a property right in food (so I know that if you say “there are no property rights”, you must be lying!) Etc. See Hoppe for a more complete (and lengthy) explication.

That’s why I know exactly where to look for quotes to counter these nonsense claims that Rothbard was anti-copyright.

What claims? Nobody ever claimed that. Rothbard was mistaken. And now he’s unfortunately not in a position to revise his error.

Well the same principle applies here. A plastic unit from which you can make a mold is more valuable from the same shaped object from which you cannot.

Yes…and? So what? That’s the source of your misunderstanding I think: believing that you have some right to the “value” of things. But that’s a nonsense.

Posted by: Peter at December 30, 2006 5:24 AM

Peter,

Don’ be dishonest. Sione did not ask me “what makes something property”… He asked me to define this term, after which he asked me to define the word I used in this definition. That’s just insane.

Again, if you or Sione want to make a point about “ownership” and how it pertains to my arguments – JUST DO IT. I’m still waiting – why don’t you show how definition of “ownership” would prove anything against my arguments. Unfortunately for both of you – you are equally clueless.

—-

You said to Brian:
“But if I’ve made 50 copies, you only get one of them; the other 49 are wholely mine.”

NOT TRUE – if you stated in your contract that these copies will belong to the author, the property title over these copies is his. If this copycat was allowed to change his terms of exchange (his contract) then there would be no property rights and we would have freedom of fraud and theft. Look at my response to Cosmin when he advocated something that silly.

“Rothbard was mistaken. And now he’s unfortunately not in a position to revise his error.

Your arrogance is not backed by any argument. The fact that you even claimed what Rothbard would do if he were alive (“support your nonsense and abandon his sound arguments”) still makes me sick. Would you please provide a single logical argument against my position – and then try to argue against one Murray Rothbard.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 30, 2006 9:04 AM

Sasha, the crux of my argument, that you don’t understand, is that there is a type of transaction, called a Sale, that accepts no condition.
At least part of the reason why you didn’t understand my point is that I failed to construct my arguments with sufficient clarity. That happened because, while I had a clear image of the point I wanted to get across, the reasoning and (especially) the verbiage were somewhat of a work in progress.
Let me resume the situation in a way that will hopefully allow us to settle the issue.
We have a seller. Using the car analogy, we can say we have a car dealer. A prospective buyer enters the shop. After they agree on the make and model, our car dealer draws up a sale contract. My position is that this sale contract allows no condition to be placed as to the use made of the vehicle. Meaning that it can not include conditions as to how much the buyer is allowed to drive per year, or maximum RPM to be reached, or a condition that has the buyer return the car after a period of 10 years. Such conditions can be put on a contract of a transaction, but this latter would be a rental contract, not a sale contract. I guess our car dealer could write such conditions on a sale contract (if he were deranged), the same way he could apply drool to the sale contract, but in both cases, it would be worth spit.

Brian:
“You know that I have worked with breeding animals before and if you are sold an animal with breeding rights they charge you more. They can also sell you a spayed animal for less.”
But did anyone sell a breeding (not spayed) animal with a condition in the contract that said it can’t be used for breeding?
Breakin down Rothbard’s quote:
“This indicates that any man who agrees to purchase (rent) this product also agrees as part of the exchange not to recopy or reproduce this work for sale. In other words, the author does not sell his property outright (or at all) to the buyer; he sells (rents) it on condition that the buyer not reproduce it for sale. Since the buyer (acquirer) does not buy the property outright, but only (rents it) on this condition, any infringement of the contract by him or a subsequent buyer is implicit theft and would be treated accordingly on the free market.”
Replace Rothbard’s words with those in parantheses and his meaning isn’t diminished one iota. So why didn’t he replace them himself, you say? Perhaps he was too preoccupied with concepts and ideas to be quibbling over words. However, his usage of “buyer” and “seller” doesn’t necessarily represent an endorsement of these. Maybe he just didn’t study the question, for noone had brought it up. I surmise that if he had looked into it, he would’ve realized those words weren’t at their place and made the necessary edit. And if he hadn’t, he would’ve been wrong.
Cheers, all!

Posted by: Cosmin at December 30, 2006 5:41 PM

Cosmin,

You can’t be serious. Every sale is a contract in which some entitlements are exchanged. If you accept some conditions attached to price – and you accept a contractual obligation to perform some service in exchange for some product, guess what… YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE TERMS OF EXCHANGE WITHOUT OWNERS CONSENT. If you could do that, you could accept the money for some product and than claim that the “condition” to deliver all of the merchandise was not included (even though it is stated in your contract).

There is no way in which you can justify fraud and theft… You are insulting this blog with your postings.

PLEASE! Ask Stephan Kinsella whether you make any sense, if you don’t believe me. I’m feeling bad for you.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 30, 2006 10:24 PM

NOT TRUE – if you stated in your contract that these copies will belong to the author, the property title over these copies is his.

What contract??

Your arrogance is not backed by any argument. The fact that you even claimed what Rothbard would do if he were alive (“support your nonsense and abandon his sound arguments”) still makes me sick.

Why? I never met him, but Rothbard seems to have been an intellectually honest man who was willing to recognize and correct his errors when they were brought to light. It’s hardly “arrogance” to suggest that he might do that, is it? Following Rothbard’s own logic, as Kinsella has shown, leads to the opposite conclusion from that Rothbard drew 45 years ago. Therefore I conclude that Rothbard today would indeed reverse his older position.

Posted by: Peter at December 30, 2006 10:28 PM

PETER ASKED: “What contract??”

The contract in which you exchange property titles… you know… MARKET EXCHANGE. I mean, do you even know what are we talking about?

Rothbard would never advocate violations of contracts (private property rights). When someone (as ignorant as you) assumes that Rothbard would start speaking against his own ideals if he were alive (“if only he read your nonsense in this thread”) – that kind of indecency can only make us sick.

Even Kinsella claims that you have to respect your contractual obligations. You can’t offer your services to someone in exchange for his property – and then “change your mind” and not provide your end of the deal. I quoted Kinsella’s statement in which he says that you can’t change your mind even before you take someone’s product, because contract already took place (his cheese example).

Please, stop embarrassing this blog.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 30, 2006 10:45 PM

Sashinator:

Rothbard would never advocate violations of contracts (private property rights).

A contract is just a transfer of title to property. Not private property itself. Do you understand the difference, dear scientistic Sasha? Or do I need to give you ergs of energy for you to grasp it?

Even Kinsella claims that you have to respect your contractual obligations.

Really? Where?

You can’t offer your services to someone in exchange for his property – and then “change your mind” and not provide your end of the deal.

“Can”? Do you mean this literally? Do you have any idea what you are jabbering about, your poor Russian?

Please, stop embarrassing this blog.

Out of kindness, I will not reply to this comment.

 

 

 

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella at December 30, 2006 10:54 PM

[deleted due to rudeness] Stephan,

Of course that I meant that contract is a transfer of property title. I did not say it’s a “delivery” of physical property.

Anyway, of course you “can” do anything – but not lawfully (I thought we were talking about that).

Anyway, let me remind you about this statement of yours:
“Let me give a clearer example that you cannot worm out of. We agree that I will buy your hunk of cheese for a dollar. The agreement is that if and when I tender my dollar, the cheese becomes mine. Now, I lay down my dollar… According to Rothbard and me, the cheese is now mine, whether you like it or not. Title to it has already shifted to me. So if you refuse to hand it over, you are now in possession of my property without my consent–that’s trespass.”

A TRESPASS MAN!!!!

So what to say about someone who refuses to deliver some property – by claiming that “conditions” of contract actually no longer apply to him (as poor Peter and Cosmin try to say). Do you know claim that is not a trespass?

[deleted due to rudeness]

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 30, 2006 11:17 PM

PETER ASKED: “What contract??”

The contract in which you exchange property titles… you know… MARKET EXCHANGE. I mean, do you even know what are we talking about?

Do you? If you bothered to read the thread, Brian was talking about somebody breaking into his house and stealing his mold, and then making copies. The last time I checked, people who go around breaking into people’s houses and stealing things don’t usually sign contracts first. “House-breaking contracts”? Really?! Come on Sasha!!!

Posted by: Peter at December 30, 2006 11:31 PM

Peter,

You don’t know what you’re talking about. When I was talking about copyright (and Cosmin’s claim that you can freely change your terms of exchange or price after you get control of your purchased item) – I said:

“if you stated in your contract that these copies will belong to the author, the property title over these copies is his.”

To which you replied; “What contract”?

COPYRIGHT CONTRACT. Not house-breaking contracts (that’s a straight trespass, resulting in tort if you cause some injury by this action).

So you really don’t even know what you’re saying anymore. Geez, I hope you’re drunk…

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 30, 2006 11:40 PM

BM> Neither Sasha nor I believe “ideas” are property.

Both of you talk out both sides of your mouth.

BM> My philosophical beliefs are NOT foundationalist so good luck with that.

Great. You have no basis for anything you say. Of course, I already knew that.

“If we immerse ourselves wholly in day-to-day affairs, we cease making fundamental distinctions, or asking the really basic questions.” — Rothbard

foundation–

2. The basis on which a thing stands, is founded, or is supported.

Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

BM> Aren’t your two responses contradictory?

Lighten up.

BM> You don’t even know the difference between collectivism and collective ownership.

Wake up. Forced “co-ownership” is collectivism.

BM> Copyright law already is fairly close to how I would have it.

That’s my point. It isn’t worth bothering with. Not one thing new has been presented in this thread. It is only new to yew. (I’m tm’ing “yew.” LOL)

BM> [L]ibertarianism (or anarchism) [isn’t] mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.

Wow, thanks for the epiphany.

SR> Economics is my field.

Who knew?

Posted by: greg at December 30, 2006 11:41 PM

Yaaaaaaawn.

Still nothing from Greg. Anyway, who’s talking about “forced co-ownership?” Can someone (lawfully) force you to sign a contract and become a co-owner of anything?

I hope Greg is drunk too.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 12:03 AM

Sasha, your apparent inability to read, and to understand what you read, explains why you still cling your this thoroughly-debunked nonsensical argument. For what little it’s worth, here is a complete rundown of the relevant subthread so far:

Bryan wrote: “If you steal my mold and use it to make an identical mold then I still own my original and also am partial owner in the created mold.”

I replied: “This is your unwarranted assumption. I’m guilty of theft, sure; you should get your original mold back, at least, and if we accept Rothbard’s “two eyes for an eye” doctrine, a second mold would be fine compensation. But if I’ve made 50 copies, you only get one of them; the other 49 are wholely mine.”

You wrote: “NOT TRUE – if you stated in your contract that these copies will belong to the author, the property title over these copies is his.”

To which I replied: “What contract?”

You wrote: “The contract in which you exchange property titles… you know… MARKET EXCHANGE. I mean, do you even know what are we talking about?”

I wrote: “Do you? If you bothered to read the thread, Brian was talking about somebody breaking into his house and stealing his mold, and then making copies.”

To which you replied: “You don’t know what you’re talking about.”

By now it should be fairly obvious that you’re the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about in this exchange. Par for the course. Thanks for playing, though 🙂

Posted by: Peter at December 31, 2006 4:14 AM

Cosmin,
“Sasha, the crux of my argument, that you don’t understand, is that there is a type of transaction, called a Sale, that accepts no condition.”

When people use the word “sale” whether they be laymen or economists they do not mean the term to be so narrow as you have specified. That is why we have terms like “as-is sale”. A sale is a very broad concept.

As an perfect example, when a common everyday guy “buys” a book he does not assume that he can make duplicates yet still callse it a “sale”. Economists also have this understanding.

In fact the only person I’ve ever heard who believes as you do is you.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 9:46 AM

When blog entries hit 200 is that when we would have to agree to disagree?

Posted by: Sam at December 31, 2006 9:54 AM

Sasha,
“I don’t have time to read all of your long texts,

I suggest you actually read what I write. It “seemed” you were being deceptive because it is only natural to assume that you read what you are arguing against. I was very careful in my wording about why I thought you were being deceptive. The word “seems” means something. I understand that you may not have time to read what I write but it is also deceptive to act as if you understand my points without reading them. I am getting the impression that you are reading what I wrote and plainly making mistakes.

especially not after your co-ownership errors or that funny attempt with the airplane “liability”…”
They were not errors of understanding. Do you understand that? I quickly admitted to my error and moved on. Do you think I should dismiss all you have to say from now on because you made several mistakes. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that those particular errors were due to a failure to keep something in mind. Two examples would be that you thought I had a contract with the guy who stole my mold, and that you thought the writer of the book retained full ownership rights. Both utterly incorrect.

The first error I charitably assumed was due to a misreading. I’m assuming english isn’t your first language. The second I charitably assumed was due to a brain mis-fetch. I assumed you understood the concepts but just built your sentence incorrectly. I highly suggest you take a more charitable view of other people, assume they make minor mistakes and try to work with them. It’s the issue of glass houses again.

I know all about negative rights and I am claiming that this is a negative rights violation. If you had read what I wrote you would understand that.

The jist of my argument is:
People are not allowed to go around mixing my labor product with their raw materials without my permission. By copying stuff without my permission they mix my work product with all the copies they make not just one. It doesn’t matter if they’ve done it indirectly since ownership of the intermediate objects also is mingled. I as the owner of the original work product want them to be unmingled in a way that prevents the person from unjustly benefitiing from my work product.

If you do not grant that I a part owner in the intermediate object then “the cat is out of the bag”.

I don’t think your methodology works as I understand it. So now I am going to start arguing from the other side against you and we will see where that leads. I think some of the others have brought up valid points.

I don’t see how your “contract” idea works when theft or loss is involved. My idea also has the benefit of working in other scenarios because under special circumstances one can prove a chain of ownership without actually having to know how it happened. Like you can prove that a child is somebodies decendant using DNA without actually proving how it happened.

Especially if that person has a unique first generalational mutation (he is the originator). Of course this only makes it easier but not certain since identical mutations can occur. It’s the sum of all evidence that matters.

I’ll address who I think is attacking your idea correctly and why in another post. You can then explain why I don’t understand you or not.

BTW, I am going to assume you read what I have written from now on if you reply to my comment. If you haven’t than admit it up front and I won’t bother responding.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 10:24 AM

Greg,

I’m afraid you have not understood my point. You are arguing from an implicit foundationalist viewpoint. It’s a philosophical term. Go look it up. I am not a foundationalist. I don’t believe that we can find ultimate absolute grounds for believing what we do and I don’t operate on such principles. Properly understood science is not foundational.

The closest published philospher you are going to be able to read to understand my position would be Karl Popper. My own personal beliefs do however deviate somewhat from his.

If you think anybody can give you an absolute proof of anything where no assumptions have been made then you are sadly mistaken. This was one of the flaws in Ayn Rand’s philosophy. She was a foundationalist.

People who go around saying “prove evolution” are arguing from a foundationalist perspective. In science there is no “proving” in the sense that they mean.

Likewise if we are discussing this from a scientific perspective I will never be able to prove anything in the way you guys are insisting.

You can’t even “prove” property rights in that way. Which I will show in by acting as devil’s advocate against property rights on this thread.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 10:36 AM

… and BTW I know the difference between then and than but my fingers sometimes spit out something different than what I mean to say.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 10:38 AM

Stephan,

You can make a contract trasferrable and then you can own it. The mortgage held on my house was transferred around between three parties.

Copyright is a transferrable contract. So it can be bought and sold. If I am mistaken then there is no reason it couldn’t be.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 10:43 AM

When blog entries hit 200 is that when we would have to agree to disagree?

There is nothing preventing anyone from dropping out . This is merely a discussion. The only reason I am continuing is because I don’t feel that many of my points have been understood. If you guy understood them and still disagreed then I would probably quit. Not saying I won’t for other reasons.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 10:47 AM

Actually, if you add up all the recent blog entries, you probably have 500+ posts on the subject of Intellectual Property.

I would love to see a scientific poll of Austrian thinkers, to find out how the whole Austrian school divides out on the subject of IP.

Posted by: Mark Brabson at December 31, 2006 11:19 AM

Peter,

Are you out of your mind???

You were not replying to Brian when you said “what contract” – you were replying to my posting that referred to violations of copyright contracts.

When it comes to the example in which some thief is “breaking into his house and stealing his mold, and then making copies” – that’s a clear trespass, resulting in tort. You will have an injury in the amount of lost sales that these unauthorized copies generated… basically, all profits and/or copies will be his.

——

Brian,

Reading everything you write amounts to a cruel and unusual punishment. You write so much about nothing, and you spice it up with some absurdity and insane claims that I’m dishonest for not introducing my biography to you. Well, I’m sorry about that.

You said: “People are not allowed to go around mixing my labor product with their raw materials without my permission”

There is your misunderstanding!

Of course that people are not allowed to trespass against your property! But if the book’s buyer is its co-owner – than it is his book as well. You are trying to impose “negative obligations” on co-owner, who also has property right over that book (or in cases of partial owner, over some piece of it)! In order to prevent him (or anyone else on his behalf) to reproduce this book, you will have to claim your special ownership over “reproductive use” that the book’s other owner does not have. There’s your problem: you cannot own other people’s use (labor), because enslavement is unenforceable in free market contracts. In order to prevent co-owner from copying that book, or to prevent some owner of 25% of the book to copy his part… you will have to deny his ownership.

You said:

“I don’t see how your “contract” idea works when theft or loss is involved.”

The same way any tort works (even in cases of trespass against co-owned items) – by injured side (buyer who is liable for the violation of contract) suing the trespasser who caused him his injuries. What’s not clear about that?

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 12:42 PM

“Ownership means full control of the services that can be derived from a good.”

Ludwig von Mises – “Human Action”

Brian, go back to the very definition of ownership and forget about our current fascist state of affairs… If you prevent someone’s full control of the services that can be derived from a good (or a part of the good in proportion to his ownership share)- you are preventing that person’s ownership. That’s why I say that someone who buys the restricted use of my product is not the book’s owner in a libertarian, realistic sense.

That’s where are disagreement is coming from – but on all other points we should have a complete agreement – because these other issues deal with common law tort. That’s why I am unpleasantly surprised by your comments about the issue of “third party’s” theft or unauthorized use of lost (or mislaid) item.

When someone floods the market with copies of my stolen book without any authorization – that’s not any different from your scenario in which someone steals your mold and floods the market with unauthorized use of it. In both cases, you will have to prove your legal right over the stolen or lost item – while claiming that the third party acted without your authorization and caused you specified injury… That’s all! So what’s different in your scenario?

I don’t know how that relates to DNA paternity tests (you and your absurdities : ), but you cannot avoid normal procedures of proof in any tort case, no matter how you view the ownership over the stolen or lost item.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 2:03 PM

PS

To avoid further misunderstandings, I’ll tell Brian what’s different between our scenarios of unauthorized use:
– The litigants are different, hence, the injury is differently assigned (due to your twisted view of ownership), but you cannot prove that your tort case will be easier to prove than mine.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 2:19 PM

Peter, please accept my deep and sincere apologies for not reading your (and Brian’s) ramblings more carefully.

Thanks also for showing that you are not only clueless about contracts, but you also have no concept of tort.

If you steal Brian’s mold and you use it for creating 50 copies, you are actually causing the loss of earnings to Brian – in the amount of 50 copies. If it wasn’t for your unauthorized use (trespass) of that mold, the only way you could have obtained those 50 copies is by purchasing them from Brian. That’s the amount you immediately owe for these fruits of your theft, in the name of Brian’s loss of earnings caused by your trespass. Now, if you accept Rothbard’s “two eyes for an eye” doctrine (as a mean of punishment for theft) you will actually be responsible for the value of 100 copies.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 2:55 PM

Happy 200 Posts on this thread. 🙂

Happy New Year everybody. 🙂

Posted by: Mark Brabson at December 31, 2006 3:15 PM

Sasha,

Here’s where I critique your idea.

In my example of the mold, exactly why isn’t Peter correct if we apply your theory? I don’t think Peter understands what I am saying yet but his objection seems valid in your case.

I will now make a better example to make this clearer. Restrict any discussion to this new example since the old one was not designed to challenge you. I am going to remove me from the example to make our discussion easier.

Suppose there is no contract whatsoever. A capitalist named Mr. Capitalist, who happens to be in the fabric business, owns this mold. The molds are for a particular kind of spindle used in the operation of my looms. He does not sell these molds or the spindles on the open market.

It took him a long time to produce this exact shape. Not only the intellectual effort but the physical effort of turning the idea into a physical object. All inputs and efforts were his. He has no employees and everything is automated with him doing all maintence and labor.

Mr. Hamburglar, a burglar, breaks in and steals the spindle mold which hasn’t been used in a decade and sits dusty on a shelf. He broke in to steal money but found none. He stole the mold because he thought it was pretty and might be worth something. He sells the mold to an artist, Mrs. Artist, for a couple dollars. The artist then produces a spindle from the mold as an object de art.

Then Mr. Hamburglar has a change of heart. Perhaps he “finds Jesus”. He buys back the mold from the artist, and shows up on Mr. Capitalist doorstep with mold in hand and gives it back. He turns himself into the police and Mr. Capitalist presses criminal charges for the trespass.

Mrs. Artist still has a spindle she produced from the mold. Mr. Hamburglar told Mr. Capitalist about his actions during his confession and about this copy. The production of this one spindle has had absolutely no effect on the value of Mr. Capitalists spindles since it’s just an art piece. Mr. Hamburglar is a thief and he really has little assets to begin with. Now that he is in jail there isn’t much to squeeze out of him.

There is no contact between Mr. Capitalist and anybody. Mrs. Artist unknowingly received stolen property was told it was stolen by Mr. Hamburglar and gave it back to him and he restored to her the money he took for it. Mrs. Artist in producing her “object de art” mixed her labor and raw materials into it. I see no reason on your theory for Mr. Capitalist having a claim of ownership over it or any say with what happens to it. So she retains it.

Mrs. Artist then takes her copy and produces a mold from this and yet more copies. One of these pieces of art ends up in the hands of a fabric producer named Mr. Fabric. He realizes its value and what it actually is and starts using it and mass-producing them for himself for use in his factories.

This of course lowers the value of your existing spindles and you suffer a drop in income.

That is the end of the example. Now the questions begin.

Do you think that Mr. Capitalist has the right to stop these fourth parties, Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric, from using the “unauthorized” spindles? If you don’t then you are not talking about copyright, but some weaker thing that really doesn’t protect Mr. Capitalist’s work product.

Remember there is NO contract with anyone. So “in theory” your argument cannot apply at all. You cannot protect much of anything. On what grounds do you have for suing this guy Mr. Hamburglar, beyond him keeping your mold for a few minutes? He didn’t even make a single copy of the mold.

Of course he stole the mold. Of course, it’s trespass. It was not his direct actions that caused the value of your spindles to go down though. He wasn’t the one who used the mold to make any other spindles. It was Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric that took the actions that lead to the reduction in value of your spindles.

It is entirely possible however that Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric might have been able to take such actions independent of what Mr. Hamburglar did. Mr. Fabric could have come up with the idea on his own and asked Mrs. Artist to produce such a spindle. Why not, it’s quite possible. Then the actions they took to lower the value of Mr. Capitalists product are perfectly valid.

Why should such a drop in value matter? As one of the other commenters pointed out, Mr. Capitalist doesn’t own the value of the object. I understood that from the beginning but I am NOT resting my position on that issue.

The burglar cannot be responsible for what money you might have made in the future. Heck if he stole a dollar from you and that caused you not to have the dollar to play the lottery that day and “your regular numbers” came up on the million-dollar prize it doesn’t mean he stole a million from you. It doesn’t automatically go from a petty crime to grand theft.

Sure the chain of events started by Mr. Hamburglar caused a drop in the value of your object but he returned your property. He did so voluntarily and you do not use the mold on a daily basis so he didn’t interrupt your business. In fact the dusty old thing was on a back shelf. He caused you no court costs because he turned himself in. You seem to think you can sue him for damages. What damages? Someone else is actually causing the damages to the value of your spindles, not Mr. Hamburglar.

With my way of thinking Mr. Capitalist can go after Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric on the grounds that he is part owner in all objects produced from his labor product but not explicitly relinquished or abandoned by him. There is a rational basis in my thinking that would allow a judge act in certain ways to remedy this and that would allow Mr. Capitalist to retain ownership over this work product even after the crime. He can, in a sense, take back the stolen goods and the receivers of the stolen goods really haven’t much to complain about.

There is no such remedy if you think this is purely about what you put in the contract and not about rights. Especially considering the fact that there is no contract.
Are you thinking Mr. Hamburglar is going to be fined for the millions in dollars of losses that resulted from the actions of Mr. Fabric and Mrs. Artist? Do you think Mr. Capitalist will make a tort against Mr. Hamburglar and then cross his fingers that Mr. Hamburglar tries to sue Mrs. Artist who then will sue Mr. Fabric.

The only one who actually has the funds resulting from these damages is Mr. Fabric. He’s the one who made thousands of copies of the spindle and earned money off it. He’s the one who made money off of Mr. Capitalists work product. Money he never would have gotten if it were not for the actions of Mr. Hamburglar. This was money that would have been earned by Mr. Capitalist instead if Mr. Fabric had not unjustly received the spindles. Mr. Fabric had years of research and development handed to him for essentially nothing. Do you think it right that he should now get to use this? At what point do the damages end?

So there you have it. Let me know where I have misunderstood what you’ve had to say. Where you think my mistakes lie. Where you think I have miscommunicated. I’m not going to be amenable to any arguments based on how ignorant you guess I am, so please don’t waste my time with that. Please, oh please, don’t act as if you’ve read this if you haven’t.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 3:52 PM

Sasha,

I wrote the above before you posted your replies. I then went on a 7 mile hike and came back. I proofread it and posted it. I then saw your addtional replies. So don’t be surprised if it doesn’t address something.

I think the example will probably capture some of the problems the other people see with your treating this as simple tort. You cannot support copyright in this way from what I can tell. The problem is not with the Third party, Mr. Hamburglar. The problem is with fourth parties like Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric.

Please forgive me that in my example I switched and called “Mr. Capitalist” by the pronoun “you”. I also might have called “Mr. Fabric” the name “Mr. Spindle”. If you want I can fix and repost. Otherwise I will assume you can correct for these minor errors.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 4:10 PM

Brabson, re your “scientific poll” comment above–I did an informal one earlier, see here. I think the respondents were mostly patent attorneys and Austrian-libertarians, given where I posted about it. Overwhelmingly anti-IP.

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella at December 31, 2006 5:26 PM

Brian,

What Peter’s objection “seems valid” in my case? You both seem confused about the difference between torts and breaches of contracts – and what injury is caused to someone whose mold is stolen by some “third party”.

Your example is full of trivial details. Who cares if “Mr. Hamburglar is a thief and he really has little assets to begin with?” If Mr. Hamburglar attacked and permanently crippled someone, would you acquit him of that crime – because he is poor and unable to support this disabled person? Tsk, tsk, tsk… Anyway, you wrote so much nonsense that it would tame hours only to decipher it. I will just focus on your direct questions to me and I will disregard everything else.

You asked the following:

—–

1. “Do you think that Mr. Capitalist has the right to stop these fourth parties, Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric, from using the “unauthorized” spindles?”

NO SIR! The fifth party (Mr. Fabric) in your example did not do any trespass against Mr. Capitalist.

However, the fourth party (Mrs. Artist) did not own the mold which she used to produce her copy. You said that she was unaware that the mold was stolen (bona fide purchase). FINE! She will not be prosecuted for that purchase of stolen goods. However, regardless of her bona fide purchase – the legal owner of that mold was Mr. Capitalist – at all times. That’s the principle of “Nemo dat quod non habet.” The first copy that Mrs. Artist produced is the result of unauthorized use of Mr. Capitalist’s mold. She was responsible to return that first unauthorized copy to Mr. Capitalist, because the only legal way in which she could have obtained it is by purchasing it from him. Therefore, she will owe a large sum of money to Mr. Capitalist – the same amount of money that she would normally have to pay for full ownership of some invention (minus the insignificant cost of her inputs) – in order to have legal rights of the full commercial use of that item.

And if you think about this – it’s normal that Mrs. Artist is responsible for compensating Mr. Capitalist for something that normally costs a lot of money to obtain legally.

Mr. Capitalist will hold the thief responsible for loss of earnings in the amount of all other spindles in the market – that otherwise he could have sold (times punitive damages, perhaps based on Rothbard’s “two eyes for one eye” principle, in order to deter theft).

——

2. “If you don’t then you are not talking about copyright, but some weaker thing that really doesn’t protect Mr. Capitalist’s work product.”

NO SIR! You are confusing a tort issue with violations of contractual copyright (which was our subject – and one that is the most confusing, if you think that the buyer of the book’s personal use becomes its owner).

Enough for this year! It’s time to party!

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 5:55 PM

Oh, I didn’t see Stephan’s comment…

I have to say one more thing before I step out : )

Stephan,

Your quantity of writing is not supported by any quality. Most of the anti-IP crowd is trying to battle with common sense and they are loosing that battle.

The fact is: It costs a lot of money to obtain the co-ownership rights over someone’s manuscript (for publishers), or to get the co-ownership of some invention (for firms).

You cannot lawfully get those valuable ownership rights for free by:
– breaking your valid, free-market contract (as Cosmin advocated)
– stealing someone’s property and using it without authorization to create “your own” copy (as Peter advocated, and Brian come to believe).
– allowing a third party to freely commit tort, if the injury pertains to someone’s contract (as you tried to imply, contrary to common law)

Once you understand these points, you will stop with your anti-copyright communism, and you will join great Murray Rothbard in advocating voluntary, free-market copyright contracts.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at December 31, 2006 6:54 PM

Cosmin,
“But did anyone sell a breeding (not spayed) animal with a condition in the contract that said it can’t be used for breeding?”

Yes, some breeders sell their dogs unspayed because they are too young to spay but the contract stipulates that you must spay the dog in a certain time frame. If you don’t the contract has been broken and they get the dog back.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 7:27 PM

If you steal Brian’s mold and you use it for creating 50 copies, you are actually causing the loss of earnings to Brian – in the amount of 50 copies.

Perhaps, but how is that relevant? He doesn’t have a right to “earnings”. If he owns a stall selling apples at the side of the road, and I open my own stall selling apples, I’m causing him a loss of earnings, as well. Do you think that’s a tort, too? Potential future earnings is simply not a property.

Posted by: Peter at December 31, 2006 7:34 PM

Sam,

I didn’t see your post of 12:18 AM last night until just now. Perhaps that makes my response make more sense.

I was not responding to your moral question. The answer to that is why shouldn’t he? If he “invented” this purple apple and was sole owner of it then why shouldn’t he be able to retain ownership rights over it? It violates no one elses freedoms.

If he sells these apples with the condition that he owns the seeds which must be destroyed then if you don’t want the apples under those conditions then don’t buy them.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 7:36 PM

Peter: “Assume there are no property rights. Then you have no right to eat the food that keeps you alive, for instance. Therefore you’re dead and not in a position to engage this argument. Since you’re not dead, you must accept that it is possible to obtain a property right in food (so I know that if you say “there are no property rights”, you must be lying!) Etc. See Hoppe for a more complete (and lengthy) explication.”

Devil’s advocate: Then why aren’t all the animals dead? The do not recognize property rights. For the most part they run on the rule of might makes right. Property rights are durable and animals don’t recognize them the way most humans do. Besides I wouldn’t be dead since if you left your apple on the beach I’d eat it.

Brian’s analysis: The problem here is that if a foundational rationalist will a always be beaten by the philosophical skeptic. The skeptic does not share any respect for reason and therefore can use reason to undermine the foundationalism. This is precisely because reason is not foundational.

Peter was playing both roles in his argument with me. He was assuming rationality had to be based on foundationalism. He then assumed thatmust be my position and that my argument was in fact foundationalist. Then he was taking the position of the skeptic to attack me. Thus he was setting up his own straw man for defeat.

If Peter continues to argue from a foundationalist position has he has done here then I can take the position of philosophical skeptic to defeat him. He will not be able to defend property rights foundationally. The process is long but we will eventually get to the point where he realizes there is no foundation. He will not be able to “prove” that property rights exist.

There is nothing wrong with rationalism as long as it’s not foundationalist. Such rationalists are pretty much immune to attacks by the philosophical skeptics. They can just say “I hold that belief tentatively pending contrary evidence”. They can even do that about their non-foundationalism.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 8:22 PM

Peter,

“He doesn’t have a right to ‘earnings’.”

This is correct. I only have a right to ‘my’ earnings, not earnings in general.

So the question is under the example is why should Mr. Fabrics earnings be considered the property of Mr. Capitalist.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 8:28 PM

Happy New Years! I’m outta here.

Posted by: Brian Macker at December 31, 2006 8:46 PM

Sasha:

1. “Do you think that Mr. Capitalist has the right to stop these fourth parties, Mrs. Artist and Mr. Fabric, from using the “unauthorized” spindles?”

 

NO SIR! The fifth party (Mr. Fabric) in your example did not do any trespass against Mr. Capitalist.

However, the fourth party (Mrs. Artist) did not own the mold which she used to produce her copy. You said that she was unaware that the mold was stolen (bona fide purchase). FINE! She will not be prosecuted for that purchase of stolen goods. However, regardless of her bona fide purchase – the legal owner of that mold was Mr. Capitalist – at all times. That’s the principle of “Nemo dat quod non habet.” The first copy that Mrs. Artist produced is the result of unauthorized use of Mr. Capitalist’s mold. She was responsible to return that first unauthorized copy to Mr. Capitalist, because the only legal way in which she could have obtained it is by purchasing it from him. Therefore, she will owe a large sum of money to Mr. Capitalist – the same amount of money that she would normally have to pay for full ownership of some invention (minus the insignificant cost of her inputs) – in order to have legal rights of the full commercial use of that item.

This is utterly ridiculous. The bona fide purchaser of stolen property arguably has to return it on demand to the real owner. That in no way implies that the information gained by the BFP in the meantime may not be used by them.

Moreover, Sasha is ignoring the “real third party” problem here, which is your “fifth party,” Mr. Fabric. There is no conceivable theory by which to nab him.

Moreover, Sasha keeps assuming you can ensnare all conceivable third parties by some form of tort. But this is not true. Her theory assumes that anyone has to somehow “handle” the object owned by another. Let’s take a very very clear example. A writes a novel. It is not published. B breaks into A’s house and puts his thumb drive into A’s computer, and copies the file containing the novel’s text. Then B puts a big electronic billboard up on his lawn, scrolling the text of the novel over and over. B’s neighbor, C, is sitting on his porch having a Bud and videotaping the cloud formations over B’s house, and inadvertently captures the text of the novel flashing on B’s billboard.

Now, C has the text of A’s novel in his camera. He did not commit any tort against B, or A. By what conceivable private law, libertarian-compatible cause of action can A (or even B) stop C from publishing that novel??

Your quantity of writing is not supported by any quality. Most of the anti-IP crowd is trying to battle with common sense and they are loosing that battle.

Actually, you are wrong–there is a growing anti-IP sentiment, as anyone can see.

The fact is: It costs a lot of money to obtain the co-ownership rights over someone’s manuscript (for publishers), or to get the co-ownership of some invention (for firms).

Thanks. As a published author and practicing patent attorney, I didn’t know this. Tell me more, Sasha.

You cannot lawfully get those valuable ownership rights for free by: – breaking your valid, free-market contract (as Cosmin advocated) – stealing someone’s property and using it without authorization to create “your own” copy (as Peter advocated, and Brian come to believe). – allowing a third party to freely commit tort, if the injury pertains to someone’s contract (as you tried to imply, contrary to common law)

It’s easy to imagine cases where a third party acquires *information* without ever “handling an object” and thus is never in breach of contract nor committing a tort. An obvious example is the Internet–you can get tons of info over it now–without committing any tort. Your apparent notion that if an action of yours causes another contractual liability then you are committing a tort–is utterly absurd and unsupported by libertarian theory or even conventional legal theory.

You are just a scientistic punk, Sasha.

 

 

 

 

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella at December 31, 2006 9:27 PM

Then why aren’t all the animals dead? The do not recognize property rights. For the most part they run on the rule of might makes right.

Animals do recognize property rights; not to the extent or with the sophistication of humans, but have you never owned a dog? Or knew someone who did? Seen it barking when strangers come onto your property? Animals in the wild mark and defend their territory, too. And yes, they also largely work on the principle of might makes right. And very many die every day.

Besides I wouldn’t be dead since if you left your apple on the beach I’d eat it.

I wouldn’t leave my apple on the beach, since the concept of “my apple” requires that which we’re assuming doesn’t exist: a property right. So if I have an apple in my hand, it’s not my apple. Why wait until I leave it on a beach before you eat it? Why not just take it out of my hand and eat it? Knock me on the head first, perhaps. But you’d have the apple in your hand and someone could come along and knock you over the head. Etc. The fact that most people don’t engage in such behavior on a regular basis demonstrates a “built in” recognition of property rights.

The problem here is that if a foundational rationalist will a always be beaten by the philosophical skeptic. The skeptic does not share any respect for reason and therefore can use reason to undermine the foundationalism.

Depends what you mean by “beaten”, I guess. If you consider repeated “am not!”, “are too!”, “am not!” to be an “argument”, and want to declare yourself the winner, I’m not going to stop you. But it’s not very productive.

Posted by: Peter at December 31, 2006 11:33 PM

Devil’s Advocate: “Of course it wasn’t your apple. I was just humoring you. But now you are getting the idea.

Animal territories are not an example of property rights in the sense that the other animals respect these boundaries because they believe the other animals “own” the land. In fact, it’s just a matter of who’s strongest.

There are other animals that get along just fine not even respecting rules against cannibalism.

Plus there are plenty of examples throughout history of people not respecting property rights and not just flipping on their backs dead as you claimed.

There is no reason why my not “owning” an apple prevents me from eating it. It’s not ownership that allows you to eat it but merely possession. We all know possession is not ownership.

Posted by: Brian Macker at January 1, 2007 10:24 AM

Peter,

The foundationalist says there is a foundation to be found. He is making a positive claim that something can be “absolutely proved”. He is claiming that there is a “proof” for whatever he says. So his very claim is that the argument can be settled in a straightforward way.

You claimed to have “proved” property rights by the fact that I would starve without them. That simply isn’t true. We can survive without property rights.

In fact natural rights in general haven’t been “proved”.

Yes, this means that we will be arguing all day. However, that is exactly what I am complaining about. It’s you who have been arguing as a skeptic. Your responses have been just a manner of denying that I can “prove” that someone has a right to the fruits of their labors.

In my example, the sales of Mr. Fabric are obviously the result of the labors of Mr. Capital but you deny him the right to the fruits of his labor. He worked damn hard on his invention and now you think the other guy has the right to benefit from those labors without the permission of Mr. Capital.

I have shown exactly how Mr. Capital can claim ownership over the unauthorized copies, by the unauthorized mixing of his labor product with Mr. Fabrics raw materials. Yet instead of addressing this you merely deny.

That it is so much easier to steal the labor product after the fact than to produce it in the first place is immaterial. Mr. Fabric did not expend the effort that was required to produce those spindles. That effort was expended by Mr. Capital. That Mr. Fabric was able to use Mr. Capitalists physical property without his permission because of a criminal act doesn’t mean he should be able to keep what he made literally from Mr. Capitalists property.

Mrs. Artist was working with stolen property. She literally made her “art works” from Mr. Capitalists property. So Mr. Capitalist has a ownership claim over those works. When Mr. Fabric made his Spindles from these “art works” he was again doing so with Mr. Captialists property.

The spindles that are in the possession of Mr. Fabric would not exist without the efforts of Mr. Captialist. Efforts for which he was not compensated. Efforts which he did not give permission for anyone to utilize.

Whether to expend those efforts went into Mr. Capitalists decision to invest his capital in inventing the spindles. He calculated how much money he was likely to save using the new spindles vs. the estimated development costs. He then expended those efforts and was in a position to reap the benefits (fruits) of his labor. However along comes Mr. Fabric to steal the efforts of his labor.

Mr. Fabric perhaps wasn’t aware of the fact that he was stealing because he may not of known how he came into possesion of the spindles. That doesn’t matter any more than if someone gets stolen goods unawares.

That Mr. Fabric mixed his raw materials with Mr. Captialists productive goods is not the fault of Mr. Captialist and is no reason whatsoever to let Mr. Fabric keep the objectively valuable product of Mr. Capitalists efforts.

This wouldn’t neccesarily be true even if the mixing accidentally happened in the other direction. Suppose Mr. Burgalar had stolen pig iron from Mr. Fabric’s wearhouse and sold them to Mr. Captialist who then molded them in to Spindles. Does Mr. Captialist now owe Mr. Fabric the resulting spindles? Of course not. What he owes back is ingots of pig iron and nothing more. Either that or he can recompense Mr. Fabric with cash.

This is true regardless of how cheaply the reproduction process is. The manufacturing process is cheap because of the mold not the cost of the raw materials. In fact one would suppose that the cheaper the reproduction costs due to the raw materials then the lesser the value in the final spindles that are due to Mr. Fabrics efforts and the less recompense he should get.

I don’t see why if Michaelangelo were to, by accident, create a statue with a stolen piece of marble that he would owe his final work product back to the victim. He would only owe a block of marble of the same quality. That’s it.

I believe this even obtains if Michalangelo were to steal the marble. In that case he only owes a piece of marble back, any incidental damages, plus court costs if any, an perhaps some jail time. He doesn’t owe a million dollar statue in recompense for a $100 chunk of marble.

Posted by: Brian Macker at January 1, 2007 11:13 AM

BTW, I HATE the fact that the software industry has moved from using copyright to patents. I also hate the fact that they are issuing patents for the most obvious of ideas.

That doesn’t mean however that I will not use patent law to fight back.

Posted by: Brian Macker at January 1, 2007 11:51 AM

Geez people, didn’t you have something better to do?

Let’s go one by one.

—-

Peter,

It’s a trespass when you use someone’s item you just stole. In tort law, you will not be only responsible for the direct theft involved (which maybe $0 like in my example in which someone’s intentional blocking of your garage causes you financial injury), but also for all measurable harm of your action. If you produced 50 copies with someone else’s mold – that is a clear trespass. If you decide to keep those copies, you will be responsible for the owner’s loss of earnings – because legally, the only other way to obtain those copies is by purchasing them from this owner. That’s common law and it’s not a matter of dispute.

—–

Poor Stephan,

There is no need to keep imagining that I am a girl. It’s kind of disturbing. Anyway…

You’re pretending that you can’t apply simple legal principles to such an easy case. You are also ignoring that trespass lies for unintentional, as well as for intended wrongs.

If Mr. Capitalist is the lawful owner of the mold that was stolen (and he was) the any use of this product by bona fine purchaser was unauthorized.

In Brian’s example the purchaser of stolen mold caused a real harm to the owner – her unauthorized use created something that could have bee obtained only from the owner – for some large sum of money.

I REPEAT: You cannot lawfully obtain some ownership rights as the result of trespass. Co-ownership over some invention would legally cost you a lot of money to obtain – and you cannot get it for free by the act of trespass.

But Stephan’s sense of humor really gets hysterical in the last part of his message. Regarding my (common-law) explanation, she states:
“Sasha is ignoring the “real third party” problem here, which is your “fifth party,” Mr. Fabric. There is no conceivable theory by which to nab him.”
WOW!
Anybody home?
I just explained that the bona fide purchaser – who wishes to keep her ownership rights over the product of her unauthorized use – will PAY for co-ownership rights that she used over a product (that otherwise would cost a lot of money to get). So by paying to become the authorized producer, this fourth party obtained legal rights for sales to fifth party and any other parties. There is no need to “nab” an innocent fifth party, because the fourth party will pay for expensive rights that will make her copy (which came from a trespass) rightfully owned.

In your silly and unrealistic example, person who committed a trespass will be responsible for the loss of earnings to the author. It legally costs a lot of money to buy co-ownership rights over someone’s unpublished book and then to put it in “a big electronic billboard up on your lawn, scrolling the text of the novel over and over.” That trespasser will have to pay for that expensive harm he caused – and it will be perfectly OK for some third party to publish that book, because he got it perfectly legally from a person who paid a large sum of money for publishing rights. Of course, no one sane would be so stupid to give away something that expensive, but I did not expect a better example from you.

And then Stephan gets even funnier. She says: “It’s easy to imagine cases where a third party acquires *information* without ever “handling an object” and thus is never in breach of contract nor committing a tort.”
That’s funny!!!
: )
Again you have to impute statements I never made. I never claimed that if you offer some information to another person – that you could sue that person if he uses it! That’s why smart authors will insist on terms of use contracts before someone can access their valuable information.

——

Brian,

Go back to Mises and the definition of ownership. Than read my response to Peter and Stephan. You got some basic concepts all wrong. Fourth party in your example (unintentional trespasser that became aware of her unauthorized use) has to pay the amount necessary to obtain co-ownership over that invention – in order to remedy the owner’s loss of earnings (that he would otherwise have if the fourth party legally obtained expensive co-ownership of his invention). The fifth party (purchaser) will be perfectly fine, because the fourth party will legalize her actions.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 1, 2007 1:27 PM

And please stop with “animal territories” and other nonsense. Our topic here is not someone’s reasoning process or discussion style (Brian and Peter are turning into Sione).

We’re talking about copyright and basic issues are following:
– can you obtain the co-ownership over someone’s invention or creation by:

a) breaking the contract that regulates terms of use
b) stealing it from the owner and than using it to reproduce “your own” items, without ever paying for the author’s loss of earnings or any punitive damage for tort.
c) purchasing the full “ownership” of a stolen good (otherwise, when purchased legally from the author), and hence using someone else’s product without authorization to make “your own” copy – without anyone paying anything to the author for his loss of earnings that resulted from that trespass.

Common law’s answer is: NO! (In spite of the stubbornness of some people who tried to negate copyright on the abovementioned, absurd grounds). Copyright is coming from firm grounds of private property rights, making it impossible for mediocre authors in a desperate quest for originality to find a tort or breach of contract that would make it unenforceable in a perfectly free-market.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 1, 2007 2:19 PM

Correction:

c) purchasing the full “ownership” of a stolen good (otherwise expensive, when purchased legally from the author)…

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 1, 2007 2:34 PM

BM> You are arguing from an implicit foundationalist viewpoint. It’s a philosophical term. Go look it up. I am not a foundationalist. I don’t believe that we can find ultimate absolute grounds for believing what we do and I don’t operate on such principles.

You sure can side-track a discussion. I never made any mention of “foundational philosophy,” you did. I gave you a generic definition, and you still didn’t get it. The drift is strawman. I never made any mention of “absolute proof,” especially in the deductive sense. (I’ve argued the opposite in other conversations.) In point of fact, I don’t have to “prove” anything since I’m not asserting a positive (ideas as property).

For example, you never established a basis for what you call “co-ownership” of physical material that has some correlation (How much correlation is enough? How do you objectively measure it?) to some other physical material — physical material that embodies an idea. That basis is a foundation, in the basic sense of the word “foundation.” You are off in the weeds with your “absolute grounds” and “philosophical foundationalism” commentary. Ultimately you would need to establish a very good case for ideas as property. You have not done so, and a million words of circumlocution won’t skate you past the goalie.

BM> Properly understood science is not foundational.

Good grief. All language at some point reduces to “definitional,” “axiomatic,” or “self-evident.” It is inescapable because language is symbolic, nothing more than an abstract model for (hopefully) reality; this is the basic nature of reasoning (abstraction) and the basic problem of the philosopher, and is the source of the skepticism regarding “foundationalism.” But if you want to get hung up on that, then you are a nihilist, and there is nothing to talk about, by definition of nihilist (laughs). If we can’t agree on definitions and bases (foundations), there is nothing to talk about.

Speaking of foundations and science, I used this text for an EE elective: http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Microwave-Engineering-Robert-Collin/dp/0780360311/. Amusing, eh?

BM> Efforts [(ideas)] which he did not give permission for anyone to utilize.

See what I mean about you talking out both sides of your mouth?

BM> [T]his means that we will be arguing all day.

Not with me since I don’t think you or Sasha are clear enough on the rudiments, er, I mean foundations. Also, my blogphilia simply is not that great — although it is a bit larger than my spare time.

Posted by: greg at January 1, 2007 6:25 PM

Useless and irrelevant comments Greg…

I explained problems with anti-IP reasoning in three simple points. There were some insane attempts to relativize harms caused by trespass of “third” and “fifth” parties, but all that failed against simple and logical tests of common law. There is no way to abolish free-market copyright, unless you want to legalize contract violations and tort, i.e. abolish property rights. I couldn’t have been any clearer on these “rudiments”.

PS
Why would anyone care about your ramblings about “foundational philosophy” and how you view Brian’s reasoning process? Stick to our topic for goodness sake.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 1, 2007 6:41 PM

After 221 posts, does anybody remember what the topic was?

Seriously though.

I would never question free market “copyright” contracts. Nor any agreement freely entered into.

From the beginning, the only thing I ever questioned was “Government” copyright laws.

I don’t think anybody could seriously question the validity of a copyright clause in a freely negotiated contract.

Posted by: Mark Brabson at January 1, 2007 7:09 PM

SR> I explained problems with anti-IP reasoning in three simple points… I couldn’t have been any clearer on these “rudiments”.

Ah, heck. I guess I missed them.

SR> Why would anyone care about your ramblings about “foundational philosophy” and how you view Brian’s reasoning process?

Man you are dense.

SR> Stick to our topic for goodness sake.

I’ll go ahead and leave that up to myself.

MB> I would never question free market “copyright” contracts. Nor any agreement freely entered into… I don’t think anybody could seriously question the validity of a copyright clause in a freely negotiated contract.

Nor do I. NDA’s are everyday private occurances. When Shasha argues “There is no way to abolish free-market copyright,” he’s conjuring up phantoms. His ideas about private application to third parties range from silly to shifting the burden of proof so much that “idea owners” would have no where near the state granted protection they currently have.

Posted by: greg at January 1, 2007 7:44 PM

Greg, everything isn’t “up to you” when it comes to our postings here. Right above the comment box it states: “Post an intelligent and civil comment.”

Your recent comments do not satisfy the former prerequisite. If we could post anything – regardless of our topic – what would prevent spammers from posting sports or weather discussions here?

Plus, that nonsense about “foundational philosophy” is incredibly boring.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 1, 2007 9:18 PM

Mark Barbson,

More power to you, because I am also against government’s regulation of copyright, commerce, you name it. But the crowd here is in completely different mood. Look at Greg, for example. He blabs something about “idea owner” and “private application to third parties” – but he is blind to the fact that you cannot violate someone’s copyright without committing a tort or violating a contract (terms of exchange). And you also have Stephan Kinsella, whose only agenda is to advocate unrestricted, unauthorized access to someone else’s property – and to “rewrite” legal theory against any norm or common sense – in order to “prove” that such communism would emerge if state was abolished. Anarcho-communists create a lot of confusion, because they also call themselves “libertarian.”

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 1, 2007 9:37 PM

Sasha

So all your puff and cant is based on a concept you can’t define. The term “legally owned” is a bit of a catch-all. Like Brian’s various “rights” it can mean anything and nothing. Unless you define it and explain yourself it all remains floating abstraction. In essence your position would then appear to be little more than: “I like copyright. Copyright is legal. Since copyright is legal I can make legal contracts based on copyright. Now let’s discuss all the wonderful variants of contracts that are available for me to make up.” That would seem to be as far as you’ve managed to think this through. Your position statements thus revealed as baseless. Oh dear!

You are the one asserting “copyright” as reliant on a right of ownership over property (in which case it is a particular or special type of ownership in a particular or special class of property). You assert that due to your special or particular right, other people are to be prevented from exercising their ownership rights over their property (such as real or chattel property). As it is you who are asserting the positive, the burden to prove it (and answer the questions) falls directly and totally upon you. It is un-necessary for me or anyone else to prove the negative for your assertion to be considered unproven, false and/or worthless. It is you who need to explain the idea to my satisfaction and validate it to my satisfaction. I am under no obligation to show a case against your idea. All I need do is see whether you can demonstrate a valid case or not. So far you have shown you can’t (and I’ve been easy on you by taking you down through some of the steps necessary- I could simply have called for a formal proof and left you to founder). Proof of Positive is a very basic rule of discourse and argument. You need to consider it carefully and understand it thoroughly prior to continuing with your apparently baseless claims. Do you get that? Can you understand at least that much? Fool!

The trouble with your arguments is that they are circular and self-referential. You deal in compartmentalised concretes and evade principles, premise, derivation and validation. I suspect you are not even clear in your own mind what the definitions of some of the terms you use actually are. This tends to confirm your ideas regarding copyright are indeed floating abstractions and hence false.

My questions to you are intended to get you to state your premise, show your derivations and concepts, validate and prove them. Your behaviour thus far has been to apply polemic techniques, blow off some steam, make assertion (like “I already answered that in detail” and the like- are you a grand-standing 2nd class bull-shitter or what!), evade direct answers, misrepresent questions put to you, spit bile and hide. You are really struggling and well out of your depth.

Now I (and likely other people reading this thread) would appreciate it if you’d stop telling lies and stick to the topic. It’d be nice to see you actually address the questions put to you and attempt an honest answer. Stop evading.

Sione

PS. Something that is “your product” can be that which is unowned or not property. For example, you produce CO2 when you exhale. Is this property? It is your product in the sense that you produced it. Under certain circumstances it may be possible to claim the CO2 as your property but for that to occur one would surmise that certain conditions would need to be met. What they may be is the interesting question to ponder. What principle need be recognised? What would then be the difference between non-owned product and owned product (hence property)?

Posted by: Sione Vatu at January 2, 2007 12:31 AM

Oh poor Sione,

I already stated my premise, showed my derivations and concepts, validated and proved them. But it is not my fault that you were not able to understand it. I’ll try to simplify it even more for you.

You have definition of ownership provided by Mises just on these threads (one of many available). And we all know what ownership means – and I even had a discussion with Kinsella on how ownership is acquired.

I never said that copyright is some “special kind of ownership” as you (probably unintentionally) lied. All I said is that if you “own” some physical creation – you have a full control of the services that can be derived from a good. And if you own something, you can sell it only for personal use (rent it) – meaning that you restrict some undesired uses, like unauthorized reproduction. That’s where copyright is coming from – your full ownership of some physical object and someone’s voluntary agreement to use it only in certain, restricted ways.

So to cut your never-ending B.S.:
I proved that in cases in which the author is not negligent – there is no way to violate his free-market copyright without committing a violation of valid contract (theft) or without committing a tort (those examples in which there is no contract with anyone, but author’s item gets stolen). I proved that claim in all of the examples that Kinsella & co. tried to think of. You are probably unable to think of one, so you decided to bore me to death as a new strategy.

PS
Again, you are trying to be smarter than you actually are. As far as economics is concerned, CO2 is not normally “my product,” (because the possessive adjective is implying ownership) – but it is a “product of my body.”

Oh, did you finally learn that TB causing bacteria are not a “strain of virus”? Good luck with your studies.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 1:24 AM

Sasha wrote: “I already stated my premise, showed my derivations and concepts, validated and proved them.”
Sasha, you are telling furfies again. No wonder the good doctor called you a liar!
What you have done on this thread is assert that you’ve stated premise, showed derivations and concepts, validated and proved them. You have not accomplished that. Asserting and doing are two different things.
Note you have not yet answered all the questions I directed to you. For instance I asked you to explain your term “legally owned”. Was that too tough for you? Can’t you do it? Why so scared to commit to an answer? Come on man, have a go.

Sasha wrote: “You have definition of ownership provided by Mises just on these threads (one of many available).”
Sasha it was YOU I asked for the definition, not Mises. The comment you make that there are many definitions available is just the reason I need to know from you what YOUR definition is, besides which, had you done as asked you’d not have needed to direct me to Mises’ definition of property now would you? You wouldn’t have needed to because I’d have been able to read yours right here, on this thread.

Sasha writes: “And we all know what ownership means”
Is that so? But you wrote that there are many definitions. So how is anyone supposed to know which one you are relying on?
In this instance the trouble with your approach is that you are relying on a claim to social metaphysics. The collective knows the answer. This is another reason I need to know from YOU what YOUR definition actually is.

Sasha writes: “and I even had a discussion with Kinsella on how ownership is acquired.”
Really? How nooice of you. BTW he is correctly referred to as Dr Kinsella. Have some manners when discussing your betters!

Sasha writes: “I never said that copyright is some “special kind of ownership” as you (probably unintentionally) lied.”
Ah but it’s already been shown that you are the liar on this thread. How very dishonest you have been. Interesting how you now claim to be able divine the intentions of someone halfway around the World on the basis that he asks questions you’d rather not face up to. And rather than face the substance of the issue raised you run off and concentrate on the non-essential yet again.
I have not written that Sasha referred to copyright as a “special kind of ownership”. It is dishonest of you to mischaracterise what I wrote. So stop it! I chose the words I did since copyright is not the same as ownership of real estate or chattels or the regular asset classes. Your copyright appears to be a type of “ownership” that grants someone control over the property of other people. The choice of the word “special” is to mark the separation between (say) my ownership of land and my businesses and your copyright claim of restriction over them. It certainly is a special power or authority you are claiming.
If it makes you feel better you could substitute another word for the word “special” (perhaps “specific” instead of “special” or “particular”- whatever is used the separation should be clear). But why are you again concentrating on the non-essential? Deal with the point at issue. Deal with the substance for a change.

Sasha: “All I said is that if you “own” some physical creation – you have a full control of the services that can be derived from a good. And if you own something, you can sell it only for personal use (rent it) – meaning that you restrict some undesired uses, like unauthorized reproduction. That’s where copyright is coming from – your full ownership of some physical object and someone’s voluntary agreement to use it only in certain, restricted ways.”
This is obtuse. You are mixing all types of property and many possible situations into one collective jumble in an attempt to smuggle your copyright idea in there as a regular type of property right. It isn’t. It is something specific and it is different. For one thing, copyright grants a right of control over property not owned by the copyright holder. By what authority is this to occur? Why so?
One interest I have in your argument relates to how you can properly restrict “unauthorised” uses of certain ideas for that is indeed what you are setting off to achieve. So far you’ve indicated you’d use a beyond reasonable doubt test to determine whom the “originator” of an idea was. Then you’d grant that person a power of copyright based on a so far unexplained concept of “legal ownership”. That test results in certain classes of entity or property being impossible to “protect” for reasons of complexity and difficulty. It’s an arbitrary separation and likely to be arbitrarily applied when reduced to practice. How is that a principled approach? Putting that aside for the moment, I’m very interested in the derivation you use to establish the copyright you assert and the “legal ownership” it relies upon. Hence the questions.

Sasha: “I proved that in cases in which the author is not negligent – there is no way to violate his free-market copyright without committing a violation of valid contract (theft) or without committing a tort (those examples in which there is no contract with anyone, but author’s item gets stolen). I proved that claim in all of the examples that Kinsella & co. tried to think of. You are probably unable to think of one, so you decided to bore me to death as a new strategy.”
No. You have not proved anything much yet. Discussion of a few interesting scenarios & examples is about as far as you’ve gone with this. Not proof. Not really dealing with or explaning of fundamentals. Still, if what you’ve just claimed here were indeed the case, surely you couldn’t object to being asked to explain some of your terms and answer a few questions about your argument and its source. Start with that term “legally owned”. Give that a try will you.
Goodness gracious, you are getting precious though!
BTW do you know what a formal proof is? Do you understand what is necessary to establish one?

Sasha; “As far as economics is concerned, CO2 is not normally “my product,” (because the possessive adjective is implying ownership) – but it is a “product of my body”.”
Idiot! Can’t you get to principle? Look at the questions following the example and try to answer those you fool! That’s the point. Now apply it to your copyright idea and see where it leads. Come on man. Stop being so compartmentalised. Try to think about the essentials! Stick to the point.

Sione

Posted by: Sione at January 2, 2007 1:48 PM

Sione,

I’m not a liar, but you are seriously challenged (your verbal diarrhea does not hide that fact). I explained and proved my position many times before. Your inability to understand it is not my concern.

Why would I want to give my own definition of ownership – when definition of Mises is perfectly fine???? Are you insane? I am not relying on any metaphysics – I am relying on your sanity to know what ownership is. I’m sorry I overestimated you.

By the way, Stephan Kinsella is not a doctor. So you can stop your insane comments about my “disrespect” for Kinsella, when I didn’t call him a doctor. He does not have a higher level of education, but that did not stop him from arrogantly insulting me. AND STOP CONCERNING YOURSELF WITH MY PERSONALITY AND STICK TO OUR TOPIC.

Plus, stop calling me an “idiot” – right after you demonstrated you own unbelievable level of stupidity. When you say that CO2 is your product – that is economically incorrect!!! And I will not apply your stupidity and ignorance to “copyright idea.” Contractual copyright is only a different name for limited terms of use of some physical piece of property.

—–

You stated that my concept of copyright “grants someone control over the property of other people”

THAT IS A LIE.

I only said that if person has ownership over some item – that he has the right to rent it, or allow its certain use, while restricting the others.

If a copyright contract states that in cases of violation of those terms all damages in the amount of unauthorized copies and/or their profits will belong to the author – than property title of these items transferred to that author (by the word of voluntary, free market contract). So copyright does not “grant someone control over the property of other people” as you stated… It actually grants me control over my own property – including specified damages for which I hold the ownership title based on conditions of exchange (total price for the use of my property).

There were different scenarios that tried to challenge the concept of copyright… Some people asked:
Q- What if someone steals your item before you rent it and there is no copyright contract to protect you from unauthorized copies.
I answered:
A- That is the case of tort, not a copyright violation. Copies produced as the result of unauthorized use of my property (trespass) – will be taken away from the trespasser, in the name of “loss of earnings” that resulted from trespass (those copies would have been purchased from me – if it wasn’t for this trespass)

These are very simple concepts – but they are too complicated for you Sione. You don’t have to prove that any further.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 2:47 PM

Sasha: “By the way, Stephan Kinsella is not a doctor.”

Well, I have a Juris Doctor degree, and according to this May 2004 opinion of the Professional Ethics Committee of the Supreme Court of Texas, which considers the question, “May a lawyer use, in connection with his or her name, the titles “Doctor,” “Dr.,” “Doctor of Jurisprudence,” or “J.D.” in social and professional communications?”, the Committee concludes: “the use of the title “Dr.,” “Doctor,” “J.D.” or “Doctor of Jurisprudence” is not, in itself, prohibited as constituting a false or misleading communication. The Committee recognizes that other professions, such as educators, economists and social scientists, traditionally use title “Dr.” in their professional names to denote a level of advanced education and not to imply formal medical training. There is no reason in these circumstances to prohibit lawyers with a Juris Doctor or Doctor of Jurisprudence degree from indicating the advanced level of their education.”

I think Sione is right. From now on, if you are going to respond to or refer to me, please use my title Dr. Kinsella.

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella at January 2, 2007 3:09 PM

Dr. Kinsella,

When I insisted on calling you Dr. Kinsella one month ago – you said: “I’m not a doctor”…

Geez…

I’ll call you whatever you prefer.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 3:24 PM

Sione> What you [Sasha] have done on this thread is assert that you’ve stated premise, showed derivations and concepts, validated and proved them. You have not accomplished that.

I gave him an opportunity to do so in another thread. I realized he had no intentions, or couldn’t even grasp the difficulty he was faced with. So as you say, now he simply asserts that he has done so. His basis (foundation, laughs) has something to do with “personal energy,” owning labor, or something along those lines. It was not good — it was very vague and sketchy.

He doesn’t really appear to understand the descriptive problems associated with “copyrighting/patenting” ideas (and the ensuing juridicial correlation problems), even though Kinsella point blank told him so (and Kinsella is someone who is finely aware of that problem because of what he does for a living). (I also know because of what I do for a living.) Sasha just does not understand the practical problems deeply. I don’t even have substantial disagreement with him on some of the rudimentary “rules” — he just doesn’t realize how severely the burden of proof will be reversed on the limited areas where he isn’t totally whacked. And of course, no free system could ever prohibit independant development — again, the burden under a free system would be so very much reversed from that of the current state enforced system.

SR> Useless and irrelevant comments Greg…

It is your fault. You reduced me to your level. LOL If you would say something worthwhile, maybe I would too, but your history on the topic says you won’t.

SR> You stated that my concept of copyright “grants someone control over the property of other people”… I only said that if person has ownership over some item – that he has the right to rent it, or allow its certain use, while restricting the others.

Doublespeak. The extrication of a class of actions to tort doesn’t really change the matter in practice. You’re just mad that people still umbrella your copyright+tort to a big C Copyright. That is just nitpicking.

Posted by: greg at January 2, 2007 3:35 PM

Wow!! …. still going!!
Sasha, in my example of the coffee shop owner who finds the book, is he allowed to open the book? (I already asked this but you skipped it)
If so, is he only allowed to do so in order to find the original purchaser’s name and/or contact info? If so, how do you justify this without assuming ownership of ideas in general? That is to say, if I am allowed to look at one part of the book, but not another, what is the principle which allows for this distinction?
And on the topic of idea ownership, you write “… ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.” How does this work exactly? Are you saying that the non-physical idea (or ideal or form) is actually “in” the physical object?
Smaller point (skip if you want): In your most recent post, you write “(those copies would have been purchased from me – if it wasn’t for this trespass)”. This is not necessarily true. It may also be the case that the unauthorized seller is just a much better salesman than you — i.e. he might be able to sell 1000 copies, where you might sell none.

Posted by: Fred Mann at January 2, 2007 3:39 PM

Greg,

I showed that Sione’s comments are totally absurd and meaningless philosophizing about nothing. I don’t have to blab about “rudimentary rules” or “foundationalist philosophy.” I can use a simple logic to show that in a perfectly free-market (where we respect private property rights) you cannot violate someone’s copyright without breach of valid contract or without a tort.

PS
To prevent other unproductive comments about things I already talked about…
I also answered the following:

Q- What if someone changes his mind about his copyright contract?
A- Similar to any other kind of sale, he can try to return that item and to ask for his money back and conditions annulled. If sale was final – than you have no choice but to accept the price you voluntarily paid for the use of someone’s item. Just like you lawfully cannot give yourself a discount when you pay for something on credit, you cannot unilaterally change terms of exchange in this case either (that’s a theft, anyway, because ownership titles changed hands). Without owner’s authorization you also cannot lawfully “upgrade” your allowed use of that product (that would be like upgrading your airline seat without asking).

Q- What if someone steals your unpublished manuscript and reproduces it – but he already sells them to other parties who did not commit any trespass?
A- He will still be responsible the large amount of money that would legally cost him to obtain full ownership of my manuscript (which would give him the right to reproduce it and distribute it). It is up to this trespasser to pay for his actions (plus punitive damages) and third parties are not responsible for anything.

Q- What if some thief sells your manuscript to bona fide purchaser, who than starts publishing your book to general market?
A- Bona fide purchaser will not be treated as a criminal, and he will return the original item or the money he received for it. But as far as his copies go – they are also a product of unauthorized use (trespass) In order to legalize his actions, unintentional trespasser will have to correct the harm he caused in the author’s loss of earnings.

———————————————-

Fred,

In your coffee shop example, there is a fine distinction between looking at the book to find the identity of the owner – and acting in ways that would cause injury to the owner. Even if that person trespasses and reads this book, he can claim that he did it unintentionally, while looking for the owner’s information – and that’s fine. What’s not fine is using that trespass to cause some injury to the author – like loss of earnings.

As far as your question about the thief who might be more capable seller, you are forgetting something:
– From the common law perspective, I don’t even have to tell you that “capability” of thief would be impossible to prove and that victim has a benefit of the doubt.
This thief was selling some items – that legally he only could have obtained from the author – and than he could have shown his capability, like any other legal seller. Just his possession of those items (even without selling them) proves the loss of earnings of this author.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 4:17 PM

Also Fred,

In tort, we are concerned about the harm that intentional or unintentional trespass may cause. Common law is no so “exotic” and it is usually not concerned with stuff that’s almost impossible to prove (like whether someone opened your book or not). Common law is a product of human experience – and not of someone’s wild imagination. When we talk about tort, there must be some injury (other than breach of contract). Unintentional trespass, like bona fide purchase of some stolen property or your coffee shop owner who opens someone’s mislaid book, are not doing anything criminal… BUT that does not mean that these unintentional trespassers will be legally allowed to later use that trespass to cause some injury to the rightful owner.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 4:47 PM

SR> A- Bona fide purchaser will not be treated as a criminal, and he will return the original item or the money he received for it. But as far as his copies go – they are also a product of unauthorized use (trespass) In order to legalize his actions, unintentional trespasser will have to correct the harm he caused in the author’s loss of earnings.

SR> Unintentional trespass, like bona fide purchase of some stolen property or your coffee shop owner who opens someone’s mislaid book, are not doing anything criminal… BUT that does not mean that these unintentional trespassers will be legally allowed to later use that trespass to cause some injury to the rightful owner.

“Unintentional trespassers”: See, you do treat them like criminals, just ignorant ones. You are doing Doublespeak, or more likely, expressing simple-minded confusion. You need to establish that ideas are property. Get busy! {laughs}

Posted by: greg at January 2, 2007 8:20 PM

Calm down you poor ignorant guy.

I am not treating them like criminals… You obviously don’t even know what tort is.

You need to first learn the difference between tort and criminal cases – before you can afford to be so arrogant.

Get busy! {laughs}

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 9:06 PM

So it is your position that the opening of a book under these circumstances is trespass?
Also, what of part two of my question? To repeat:

And on the topic of idea ownership, you write “… ideas can be owned when they are turned into something tangible and physical.” How does this work exactly? Are you saying that the non-physical idea (or ideal or form) is actually “in” the physical object?

Posted by: Fred Mann at January 2, 2007 9:47 PM

Fred,

I told you, opening a book under those circumstances is not a tort and that’s what matters.

As far as your question about ideas goes, I ignored it for your sake. Didn’t you get by now that I only talk about physical property? Even abstract ideas can be written down and than they will become something tangible and ownable. So ideas are not “in” the physical object in some philosophical sense (save that for pseudo philosophers, you have plenty of them on this thread) – ideas can be turned into physical object or a part of it.

Don’t busy yourself with “non-physical ideas,” because we are concerned with property rights of ownable goods here, not philosophy.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 10:18 PM

Correction: property rights over ownable goods : )

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 2, 2007 10:22 PM

I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I finally agree with some people who told me from the beginning that Sasha is quite dense, to say the least.
I don’t understand how he can still believe I advocate breaking contracts.
What I do advocate is identifying invalid clauses in contracts and not abiding by them. Not because we derive pleasure from reneging on contracts, but because invalid clauses are non-binding by definition.
What is an invalid clause? My position is that there exists a certain type of transaction that is final and accepts no condition to be placed on the use of the product involved in the exchange. It is characterized by full transfer of ownership. I call this transaction a sale. Brian seemed to agree, except he sees that the word sale is commonly used to refer to transactions where ownership is not fully transfered, and thinks we should let that situation perdure. My question is: why? Why do I have to qualify my sale with terms like “as-is sale”? Why don’t the others qualify their transaction with “restricted sale”, or “partial sale”, or “rent”? Just because there’s more of them? Just because something is common, doesn’t mean it’s right. Even if most people were color-blind, those who weren’t would still be right when pointing out mismatched socks.
Also, who’s to say that in a free-market situation, the other type of transaction (where ownership is fully transfered) wouldn’t be the more common one? I believe this to be the case and here’s why:
In a system where no government steals our money to pay for the institutions that enforce IP rights and protect from violators of these, sellers would have to include the cost of such into the price of their product. Other sellers would gladly abandon the right to control the use of their product beyond the sale and would be thus able to present their product at a more attractive price. This type of sale might become the more common one.
Wouldn’t it then be obvious that when someone presents himself as a seller of this type, he would be a fraud if he were to be a mere renter?
What that means is that, obviously, he can impose any condition he wants in his contract. But in doing so, he forfeits the right to call this contract a sale contract. Only someone as daft as Sasha can endorse such a unilateral modification of the terms of a sale contract.

Posted by: Cosmin at January 3, 2007 11:56 AM

Cosmin,

You are so ridiculous. If both parties voluntarily accept a free market contract (terms of exchange) only someone as daft and dense as you would call this “unilateral modification”. Hey Einstein, I don’t accept any one-sided modifications of contract after both parties terms in which they exchange property titles.

And now you have problem with rent and conditions that some owner can ask from their property’s users (who are free to decline or accept these terms). You ask WHY. Well, because people are free to do with their property whatever they want (as long as they don’t violate someone else’s property with that) and they can exchange their property, goods and services, however they see proper.

Anyone can read what you wrote. You advocate breaking contracts by declaring (unilaterally) that some conditions that were perfectly good for you at the time of purchase (you accepted them) are no longer “valid” – but your control over their product is perfectly “valid” for you. That is called FRAUD.

You can’t rent a car, and than decide you own it. You can’t promise to pay one price, get the product, and than run-away with paying only one part. You even stated that you would accept some terms of exchange just to “to avoid wasting time arguing…” and than feel free that you can change them however you see fit. Only someone completely out of their mind would even say something like that.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 3, 2007 4:55 PM

Correction: I don’t accept any one-sided modifications of contract after both parties voluntarily accept terms in which they exchange property titles.

And sorry about lapses like than=then… I write too fast.

——

Anyway Cosmin, don’t you think it’s time to stop with those crazy insinuations about my positions? Just admit that you cannot invalidate some market exchange contract, by changing your mind about the price you’re going to pay, but still insisting on taking someone else’s good or service. State any definition of enforceable contracts and I will justify the copyright as such. It would perfectly hold in common law, so just give it up.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 3, 2007 10:49 PM

I see reading is not one of your skills.
“And now you have problem with rent and conditions that some owner can ask from their property’s users”
What I said: “obviously, he can impose any condition he wants in his contract.”

“You advocate breaking contracts by declaring (unilaterally) that some conditions that were perfectly good for you at the time of purchase”
What I said: “What I do advocate is identifying invalid clauses in contracts”

“are no longer “valid””
What I said: “there exists a certain type of transaction that is final and accepts no condition to be placed on the use of the product involved in the exchange.”
The condition was never valid, since it was written on a SALE contract.

Answer me this simple question:
Why is it so hard for you to put the Sale contract back in the drawer and pull out a Rental contract if you want to put conditions?

Honestly, do even know how to read? Would you have written your last message if I hadn’t written mine? I would think not. Hence, you wrote in reply to it. Why is it then that you don’t address anything in it, but rather resurrect long-spent arguments that have since been explained and clarified? You’re turning in circles, man! I would stop wasting my time with you, but it’s just too damn funny. It’s like a trainwreck that one can not avoid staring at.

Posted by: Cosmin at January 3, 2007 11:04 PM

Cosmin,

You are even more ignorant than I thought. You said:

—-
“there exists a certain type of transaction that is final and accepts no condition to be placed on the use of the product involved in the exchange.”
—-

You poor soul, there can be a final transaction on rent as well (some people get stuck with their rent contracts)… but that’s not even important…

What you probably meant to say is following:
– there are transactions in which ownership title over some seller’s good is transferred to the buyer. Since this buyer is now the legal owner over that good, that means that he is now in “full control of the services that can be derived from a good” (L. v. Mises, H.A.).
OF COURSE THERE ARE TRANSACTIONS LIKE THAT! Didn’t we talk about it when we mentioned co-ownership or full ownership, in which a publisher (unlike a common user) has the full control over his good.

UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, copyright does not refer to these kinds of transactions. The ownership title over copyrighted item is kept by the author or publisher in this case. The purchaser only buys the service that can be derived from the personal use of that product. It’s like any rent. The owner has a right to ask for the price for the specific use of his item, and he has the ownership right to restrict some unwanted uses.

IS THAT CLEAR NOW? Well, probably not to you.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 3, 2007 11:32 PM

Also, the problem is that you don’t read your own postings.

By “invalid clauses in contracts”

You actually mean this (these are your words): “Person B dismissively promises to abide by M in order to avoid wasting time arguing…”

That is nothing but a fraud and theft. SALE includes exchanges of both goods and services – and you cannot unilaterally dismiss someone’s price (asked goods and services from you), but keep his good and treat it as your property.

Anyway, that still has nothing to do with copyright (only with your ignorance). How would you apply your insane notion of “invalid clauses” copyright?
– Someone says that he does not give up his property title over some product and that he will only allow you to use that product in certain ways for specified compensation (in money and damages in cases of contract violation)… but you decide to assume you are the owner of that good and that you get to pay only a part of the price that you find “reasonable.” I mean, how else would you apply your nonsensical “final sale” ramblings to copyright??? I’m just asking here, don’t attack me… Just give me an example!

Show me how you would find “invalid” clause in any copyright product! (This is really refreshing after anarcho-communists failed to justify tort as a mean to bring down the copyright).

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 3, 2007 11:41 PM

“You actually mean this (these are your words)…”
I thought I told you to refer to the newest posting.

“- there are transactions in which ownership title over some seller’s good is transferred to the buyer. Since this buyer is now the legal owner over that good, that means that he is now in “full control of the services that can be derived from a good””. That’s what is called a sale.

“UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, copyright does not refer to these kinds of transactions.”
FINALLY! In other words, when you sell something, you can’t impose copyright restrictions. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you since last year!

“Show me how you would find “invalid” clause in any copyright product!” Easy. If the shopkeeper says the product is for sale, what that automatically means is that you acquire “full control of the services that can be derived from a good”. Hence, no copyright can exist on said product. For a copyright to exist, the shopkeeper would simply have to say the product is for rent. Is that so hard?

Posted by: Cosmin at January 4, 2007 12:04 AM

Oh Cosmin- you “genius”!

I will refer to any of your postings – not just new ones (until you clearly reject the old ones and say that they were incorrect)…

By the way, there is no need for that “FINALLY” charade – I kept saying the same things, over and over again. I’m not the one who asks people to refer only to my newest posting.

TO GET TO THE POINT:
“Sale” does not have to imply exchanges of the ownership title over some particular good. You can sell your services, like allowing someone to use your book in contractually specified manner. If your written copyright disclaimer states that you are NOT purchasing the ownership title over that product and that you have specific terms of use – you will have to respect those. Is that so hard?

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 4, 2007 1:39 AM

And to preempt something I can see clearly coming:

No one cares what “sale” means to you in a particular context, if there are expressed terms that specify what is exactly sold there.

After all those insane attempts to justify contract violations with “third…, fourth…, fifth…” parties – as well as Cosmin’s “crossed fingers” – it has all now come down to a subjective interpretation of word “sale” in communication with sellers – meaning that the validity of copyright contract is no longer in question.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 4, 2007 1:54 AM

I thought the point of a debate is to advance the conversation. My position has not changed from the first post to the latest, but the wording has. Perhaps it is more concise and presents the situation in a more clear and understandable way. At first, there was some confusion on my part because I hadn’t realized you were talking about a different kind of transaction (partial) when you used the word sale.
What sort of logic impels you to resurrect the older posts, whose time has passed?
Then again, you are not debating to advance comprehension of anything. You never answer questions. You never address points made. You just turn around in circles, throwing tantrums when someone doesn’t agree with you.

This may be pointless, but let me explain my position:
1. Sale is the transaction where ownership is transfered.
2. Copyright has no place in a transaction where ownership is transfered (sale).
3. Copyright is perfectly valid in any rental transaction.
4. Proponents of copyrights are free to advertise that they have products for rent. They can’t trick (fraud) costumers by saying their products are for sale.
5. Then, let the market decide which type of transaction will perdure (or if both coexist).
What’s wrong with that?

Posted by: Cosmin at January 4, 2007 11:36 AM

Nice summation, Cosmin. You have my endorsement.

Posted by: Scott D at January 4, 2007 12:13 PM

Sorry about the slight delay, Sasha.
Anyway, you write:

“I told you, opening a book under those circumstances is not a tort and that’s what matters. ”

If you reread my post, you will see I never even mentioned tort.
I am just trying to establish if you think opening a book is GROUNDS for a tort. Remember a tort has two components — damage AND wrongdoing — i.e violation of some statute, law, duty, responsiblity, etc..
Anyway, it appears that the answer is “yes”.
Now on to idea ownership …
Ideas are NEVER ownable. Period. Ideas only exist in the mind. We can attempt to convey the ideas through spoken words/written symbols or create physical objects which resemble the things in our mind’s eye, but these physical things are not the ideas themselves. They are not ideas which have been “turned into physical objects”, as you say. Any sentence which begins “Ideas can be owned when …” (or some variation) is incorrect.
Your confusion here may be leading you to believe that book ownership means something more than the ownership of paper and ink. But it does not. But if you believe it does, then you might be justified in saying that I was guilty of some wrongdoing by opening and/or reading the book. But I am not.
To illustrate, imagine that the book was just comprised of bound pieces of blank paper (for writing or whatever). I could not conceivably be accused of violating any duty/law/civic responsibility/etc. by opening the book left on MY property (an “unauthorized use” of my property, no less — ha ha.). But, according to you, as soon as we put some writing on these pages, things change. We now have, as a society, a duty to not open a lost or mislaid book. But why? How can you justify this without referring to some general IP standard which applies to the society as a whole?
Since you are trying to create some special new duty/law/standard as grounds for a tort, you would need to provide justification for that. Remember, MY standard — return the item to the owner in the condition it was when it was found — works for EVERYTHING … except your scheme. So to put it another way, you would have to show why my standard is not reasonable/consistent with private property rights.

Posted by: Fred Mann at January 4, 2007 4:44 PM

Cosmin had a change of heart. Cool with me, but bear in mind the following:

1. “Sale” does not have to imply change of ownership title over goods. You forget that services are also sold – and they are not alienable. The copyright contract can state that the owner sells his services, by allowing you to use your book in limited fashion.
2. YOU GOT IT! Copyright ABSOLUTELY has no place in a transaction where ownership is transferred (sale). That’s what I was telling you all along. These kind of (expensive) transactions are usually reserved for publishers, not regular users.
3. YOU GOT IT FINALLY! Copyright is perfectly valid in any rental transaction (sale : ).
4. Copyright proponents are free to advertise their services – and if their contract explains exactly what’s been advertised, there is no fraud.
5. Market is free to abandon copyright right now, but, in most cases, it chooses not to do it. I explained the reasons already.

—-

Fred,

I insist on talking about tort – because that’s all it matters when it comes to lawsuits that unauthorized copies (fruit of the trespass). Opening the book to find an owner, or entering someone’s property to save life… that’s not what we talk about here.

I don’t care about metaphysics of “idea ownership.” It is irrelevant. Idea is content of cognition that can be stored on something that we own (either our brain or our hardware). When written down, this content (idea) becomes something ownable.

ANYWAY,

I’m not introducing any new standards of tort. You’re just not good with that concept. Whether some book is blank or full – mislaid property is someone else’s and unauthorized use is an unauthorized use. Of course that things change when book has some content – the “finder” can use his unauthorized use to produce copies and cause tort to the rightful owner (in loss of earnings). That’s how it is. Give it up.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 4, 2007 5:34 PM

Sasha

You have now proved that you are unable to answer direct questions put to you (for example, you can’t explain what you mean by “legally owned”). That’s a shame as it means that your ideas and system of thought are baseless- floating abstractions. A system built on nothing (such as yours) is all very well but it can’t be considered valid in dealing with reality. It may seem to you a nice proposition or suposition but in the end it isn’t anything more than that and can’t be taken as truth (that is, as correct), hence it is invalid, worthless. In this regard it is you, Sasha the slav, who share aspects of thinking with communist intellectuals.

What you have is a tower of ideas based on your own assertion. It all looks very twee and nooice. And in isolation or as an abstract theory it may seem to be very tidy and clever but attempts to practice such nonsense inevitably and consistently result in catastophe, ruin and disaster. Tragic. Bad in practice, bad in theory. Your nonsense would be terrible when reduced to practice. What a mess. As bad as the present patent system, maybe worse.

You do have to provide the fundational derivations for YOUR ideas and you do have to answer directly the questions put to you. That’s because it is you who assert the positive. In the absence of your ability to answer, your ideas can’t be shown to be valid. You are the one making the claims and assertions remember.

Now go back, re-read the questions and make an honest attempt to answer. How hard can it be?

Sione

PS you could always concede that you can’t do the derivation. In that case go as far as you can and show where the problem lies. That way that problem could be considered.

Posted by: Sione Vatu at January 5, 2007 12:21 PM

SR> I am not treating them like criminals… You obviously don’t even know what tort is.

Actually, you finally said something right. You aren’t treating them like criminals, you are treating them like your victims. The person intentionally doing harm is you.

SR> …ideas can be turned into physical object or a part of it. Don’t busy yourself with “non-physical ideas,…”

Ideas are always non-physical, that is exactly the characteristic that makes them infinitely replicable. Ideas are non-scarce in the manner that they don’t have the rivalry problem. That’s why people who have ideas (which they believe are unique) want the state to impose scarcity upon actual physical goods via copyright/patent. The very act of people seeking to have the state impose copyrights and patents upon actual physical goods should tell even the most clouded intelligence that ideas are not rivalrous scarce and thus they are not property. The “infinitely replicable” characteristic is exactly why ideas are nothing like property. The fact that people act on an idea and thus manifest an idea in a physical object is irrelevent to the nature of ideas themselves.

SR> And sorry about lapses like than=then… I write too fast.

That is the least of your problems.

FM> Any sentence which begins “Ideas can be owned when …” (or some variation) is incorrect.

Exactly. It immediately self-contradicts; Not that such a rudimentary logical problem will pose any barrier to the stubborn.

SR> When written down, this content (idea) becomes something ownable.

You need to establish ideas as property. It is rudimentary to your task. You have not done so. And according to you, why not make all speech copyrightable? After all, speech is physical: compressions and rarefactions of the air. Just because spoken speech doesn’t have the same lifetime as a piece of paper, so what (speech is undeniably physical)? Where does the arbitrary lifetime rule kick in?

Your idea about ideas is ludicrous. But I’ll grant you “ownership” of it. I sure want nothing to do with it.

Posted by: greg at January 5, 2007 5:54 PM

Sione,

Don’t be so retarded. Everyone knows that “legally owned” means. It’s a shame you don’t – so you have to blab about nothing…. I mean – what did you try to say with all that gibberish about ideas? You say: “attempts to practice such nonsense inevitably and consistently result in catastophe, ruin and disaster.”

You’re probably high on drugs, or just ill.

—–

Greg,

Learn difference between a crime and a tort. If you cause a car-accident, it is not a crime, but you will still have to pay for the results of your actions.

As far as ideas go, they can be witten down or turn into physical and ownable. Of course that you can own a piece of paper or some othe hardware that is scarce when it contains some valuable idea (whose demand exceeds supply if price was set to zero). On the other hand, air is not ownable (it’s not scarce). Your economic ignorance prevents you from understanding why common speech is not copyrightable.

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 9, 2007 12:22 AM

When I say that something is “owned” – I refer to the definition of ownership that was provided by Ludwig von Mises (the standard definition). From that point – we can conclude that the owner has the right to allow and restrict certain uses of his property. That’s where the copyright (the restriction of reproduction and other commercial uses) comes from. And you can’t do anything about it Sione, except talk some gibberish abour “premise, fundational derivations, isolation or as an abstract theory”

: )

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 9, 2007 12:36 AM

When I say that something is “owned” – I refer to the definition of ownership that was provided by Ludwig von Mises (the standard definition). From that point – we can conclude that the owner has the right to allow and restrict certain uses of his property. That’s where the copyright (the restriction of reproduction and other commercial uses) comes from. And you can’t do anything about it Sione, except talk some gibberish about “premise, fundational derivations, isolation or as an abstract theory”

: )

Posted by: Sasha Radeta at January 9, 2007 12:37 AM

Sasha

Drugs or illness! What a choice. You are getting to be quite the hysteric. You must be speaking from personal experience! Still, what you have provided is sufficient to come to some conclusions about your approach to the argument.

You write: “When I say that something is “owned” – I refer to the definition of ownership that was provided by Ludwig von Mises (the standard definition).”

& yet you wrote: “Property is that which is legally owned by an individual or entity.”

Then you proceeded to assert your copyright on the basis of “legal ownership.” [your post of December 28]

You also claimed: “Everyone knows that (sic) “legally owned” means.”

Well, von Mises certainly did.

Prof Mises warns (in Human Action) not to confuse the source of or reason for ownership of property with a legal definition. That is, he made a clear distinction between the concept “legally owned” (ownership determined and subject to some government’s legislation) and real or actual ownership of property. He teaches that the law is not the source of property or its ownership. He goes further and demonstrates that the notion of “legal ownership” is used for socialist ends. It is a socialist construct designed to collectivise private property. [Sasha, you dirty pinko commie you!]

Were you aware of Mises position it is likely you would not have relied on the concept of “legal ownership” in deriving your copyright. You certainly wouldn’t have written about “legal ownership” in the way you did (hence resulting in my pulling you up and asking you questions about it). Therefore it is reasonable to suspect you do not know how Mises treated the definition and derivation of property or how he established ownership thereof. Further, you appear to be using socialist premise and argument to establish your copyright idea. Grave errors, indeed to be avoided.

It is vitally important to understand the first principle derivations of ideas such as copyright. You should by now have started to realise why. In this case it is likely you have not studied the source of the idea you promoted- merely accepted something and elaborated on it, building a tower of rationalisations founded on…. unexamined premise. In other words, your copyright argument was invalid at source (and you never checked).

I sense your frustration at being asked to go back to step one and work on derivation and validation. How tiresome it all must seem, at least until the terrible realisation dawns that it just may be that you can’t successfully undertake the task. Your intellectual honesty and personal integrity is measured on what you do as the result of that realisation.

To evaluate your idea and its legitimacy it is important to examine all those details that you were so determined to evade addressing. It is important to strip away the compartmentalisation, leave the isolated concretes aside for the moment and work directly with the core principles & premise supporting or refuting the proposal (the idea or system you are interested in). Deal with the fundamentals, they are extremely important.

And so where does that leave matters now? Well, for a start it is to be recommended you read some of von Mises’ work and think about it really, really carefully. Secondly, the take home message is that you have not been able to demonstrate a watertight chain of logic from reality to your copyright assertion. You can’t derive it properly as the chain is broken at source (you accepted faulty premise). I suspect there are several other failures of logic inherent in the promotion of your copyright idea but we have not yet examined them in any detail as yet. For example, it is necessary to address and identify what attributes must be exhibited for an entity to be properly regarded as property. And so on.

Lastly. There is that old saying, “Bad in practice. Bad in theory.” You should consider the practical implications and applications of your theory. A number of serious problems present themselves to undermine it.

Sione

Share
{ 4 comments }
  • See also other posts and articles on the impossibility of “owning ideas.“

Mises post from 2006; Archived comments below:

Update: On the issue of owning just any “type of thing” that one can conceptually identify, see: A Recurring Fallacy: “IP is a Purer Form of Property than Material Resources”; Remembering Tibor Machan, Libertarian Mentor and Friend: Reflections on a Giant. See also the related discussion in Stephan Kinsella, Legal Foundations of a Free Society (Houston, Texas: Papinian Press, 2023): ch. 14, “Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society,” Part III.B, “Libertarian Creationism”; ch. 15, “Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years: Looking Back and Looking Forward,” Part IV.C, “Lockean Creationism”; ch. 17, “Conversation with Schulman about Logorights and Media-Carried Property,” text at n.20.

Update: Penner on Intellectual Property, Monopolies, and Property: “If property is a right to things, we must provide some characterization of the things that can be property. … Most persons familiar with philosophical treatises on property are never faced with the task of thinking about why some things are objects of property and others are not.”

Owning Thoughts and Labor

December 11, 2006 11:50 AM by Stephan Kinsella | Other posts by Stephan Kinsella | Archived Comments (190)

The issue of whether non-scarce things like thoughts or labor are ownable has arisen in recent debates–see, e.g., Thoughts on Intellectual Property, Scarcity, Labor-ownership, Metaphors, and Lockean Homesteading; Intellectual Property and Think Tank Corruption; and New Working Paper: Machan on IP.

Johan Ridenfeldt called to my attention recently a 1988 panel discussion on ethics with Rothbard, Hoppe, David Gordon, and Yeager, which has this exchange:

Question: I have a question for Professor Hoppe. Does the idea of personal sovereignty extend to knowledge? Am I sovereign over my thoughts, ideas, and theories? …
Hoppe: … in order to have a thought you must have property rights over your body. That doesn’t imply that you own your thoughts. The thoughts can be used by anybody who is capable of understanding them.

This is compatible with (and, of course, pre-dates) my own views on property and scarcity. As usualy, Hoppe got it right early on.

(See also Hülsmann’s Knowledge, Judgment, and the Use of Property, at pp. 44, and my Knowledge, Calculation, Conflict, and Law, p. 58, discussing the acquisition and use of knowledge being a mere technical problem.)

My view, as I argue in Against Intellectual Property, is that only some kinds of “things” are ownable in the first place. That is, before you ask who is the owner of a thing, it first needs to be established that the thing is ownable–the type of thing that property rights apply to. This is one mistake, in my view, in Rothbard’s attempt to derive a version of “copyright” (but which really also seems to include patents, since he thought it would cover inventions too). Rothbard assumes (as I explain in detail in the above paper) that where someone contracts with a novelist to buy only a single copy of a book and not to copy it, a third party may also not copy the book because he only has the rights that the customer had. This implicitly assumes that knowledge is ownable.

I think Machan also makes the mistake of implicitly assuming that that any “thing” you can conceptualize or name “exists” and “thus” can be owned. Such as a novel, or poem, or invention. And if these things are ownable, naturally, the person with the best connection to or claim to this thing is its creator. As Machan notes,

the status of something as private property appears to hinge on its being in significant measure an intentional object—its status as a private owned entity has to do with in what mental relation is stands with an agent. But then it would seem that so called intellectual stuff is an even better candidate for qualifying as private property than is, say, a tree or mountain. Both of the latter only come to be related to human intentions, whereas a poem or novel cannot have their essential identity without having been intended (mentally created) by human beings.

(This is somewhat reminiscent of what Rand did when she actually elevated patents over mere property rights in tangible goods, when she wrote that “patents are the heart and core of property rights.” See. p. 18 of my Against Intellectual Property article linked above.)

The problem here is it just assumes any “thing” you can identify conceptually may be owned. One problem with this is that it seems to make reality depend on the way we name or conceptually identify things. If I call or understand your output as a “novel,” then the “novel” is the unit. But just because this suffices for conceptual understanding of the world does not mean there is some “ontological” class of entities called “novels” that may be owned. In fact our concepts are use to refer to many phenomenon in or aspects of reality–truth, love, the-fact-that-I-woke up this morning, the age of the earth, my favorite drink. Are these things ownable just because they are “things” that can be conceptually identified? I don’t think so.

When you ask what things are ownable, before asking who the owner is, you realize the criteria is bound up with the purpose of property rights, which is to assign owners to avoid conflict; that is, they pertain to the types of things over which there can be conflict–that is, to rivalrous (scarce) resources. Clearly not to facts or memories or recipes or patterns or information. So you never get to the question of who owns a poem. It is simply not part of the class of ownable things. Call it a thing if you like; say it “exists”; fine by me. But it’s not an ownable thing.

If you restrict the ownership inquiry to scarce resources, you see the question of “creation” never really comes up, strictly speaking: as I have noted before, the focus on “creation” as an independent source of ownership is confusing and flawed. Actually, it is first use that is the key (as elaborated in my article How We Come To Own Ourselves). This is sufficient to allocate title to any particular scarce resource in question (the body is a special case). Creation, it turns out, is neither necessary nor sufficient: for example, if I am the first to homestead an apple, I own it even though I didn’t create the apple (yeah, you can torture language to try to say you “created” it in a sense since your creative efforts or “labor” were needed to recognize the opportunity etc., but let’s face it: you didn’t create the apple). So creation is not necessary. And if you create a statue in someone else’s granite slab, you don’t own it–so creation is insufficient. By contrast, if you create a statue in your own granite, you own the resulting statue, but not because you created it–because you already owned the granite, but merely changed its form.

Randians justify rights based on man’s “need” to be “productive” etc. I find this a very flawed and non-rigorous approach. It is what leads them to focus on creation as the touchstone of ownership; and this is why they are so eager to grant rights in IP–because yes, these things are “created” moreso than unowned scarce resources in the wild that are found and homesteaded.

***

Update: As I note in ch. 9, n.52, of Legal Foundations of a Free Society:

“I suspect Rothbard would have come around on this issue [inalienability and debtor’s prison] had he lived longer. After all, he accepted Hoppe’s argumentation-ethics defense of rights as an improvement on his natural law-based defense. I believe he also would have come around on intellectual property. Alas.”

See also his somewhat anti-copyright comments here, written after Ethics of Liberty:

https://www.tumblr.com/conza/46930899170/rothbard-on-high-tech-crime

[continue reading…]

Share
{ 11 comments }

New Working Paper: Machan on IP

by Tibor Machan (Chapman University). See text below.

Over the years there has been a debate among supporters of the free market concerning whether so called intellectual property is something to which one may have a private property right. One central element of the case, as advanced by some, is that because intellectual property is intangible, and tangibility makes what is owned rather easy to identify, intellectual “stuff,” such as a novel, poem, musical composition, or screenplay cannot be owned. This is not just some abstract exercise without concrete implications and applications.

Update: Penner on Intellectual Property, Monopolies, and Property: “If property is a right to things, we must provide some characterization of the things that can be property. … Most persons familiar with philosophical treatises on property are never faced with the task of thinking about why some things are objects of property and others are not.”

Archived comments:

Comments (15)

  • Ross

    This author’s attempt to obfuscate the tangible-intangible distinction is amazingly weak. The question is entirely whether intangible idea can be owned.

    Published: November 30, 2006 9:25 AM

  • David C

    One mistake I see around a lot of property philosophies is that they fail to center around “human action”. That is, the end in itself is not a perfect property, but optimum “human action”. For example, another using my property deprives me of choices on how I may use it. By engaging in a system of property rights, we optimize “human action” in a very natural and sociable way. However, copyrights and patents fail this test. Instead, their imposition tends to limit and control choices rather than optimize “human action”. In this setting the origin is irrelevant (other than by perhaps violating privacy or fraudulently taking credit) rather, me doing what I want with my copy does not control or restrict what anyone else does with their copy. It may change the supply demand status when it comes to selling to other people, but that is implicitly assuming a right to limit others choices to a specific distribution path to begin with. Once again, “human action” in this situation is controlled and limited rather than maximized and made the ends in itself. IMHO, the “human action” perspective is extremely important as society enters the information age. Because as time goes on and the cheap flow of information becomes more universal, the “human action” costs increase drastically for implementing copyright type systems.

    Published: November 30, 2006 9:43 AM

  • Ezekiel Smithburg

    The link to the PDF appears to be broken.

    Published: November 30, 2006 12:46 PM

  • Carl Johan Petrus Ridenfeldt

    Comparing ideas with smoke? Come on! Such an absurd comparison almost makes me wonder what Professor Machan’s head really contains, the former or the latter? (No disrespect intended.) 😉

    Clearly, there is a clear-cut, objective difference between poems, songs, technological processes, and other “ideal forms” on the one hand and smoke particles and other more-or-less “physical intangibles” on the other: scarcity. Professor Machan and I can clearly both make use of a definite song (the “definiteness” is here accepted arguendo, regardless of the reality of the “fuzziness” involved in declaring two songs to be one and the same song) at the same time and in the same respect; we cannot, however, do the same with a definite soot particle. In the second case, use is rivalrous; in the first, it is not. Surely, this difference has important, praxeological implications.

    Also, we may note the following: It is true that I might “create” something with my “human initiative” by applying an axe (as, say, performance art) on the furniture in Professor Machan’s apartment. Nonetheless, we do not expect the law to thereby grant me ownership of Professor Machan’s ruined sofa. Why is that so? The answer lies in the prior-later distinction: Professor Machan already owned the sofa; hence, it is no longer up for appropriation. If such is the case, how come that a myriad of poets, composers, and computer programmers are constantly allowed to appropriate partial rights to ownership over material (such as, e. g., paper, ink, and computer hardware) that is already in my legitimate sphere of ownership?

    Remember, the advocates of “intellectual property” never favor “intellectual force” (whatever that is) to be wielded against “pirates”; instead, they are proponents of the quite tangible club, gallows, and bayonet. Food for thought, no?

    Published: November 30, 2006 4:59 PM

  • Global Warmer

    Well said, Carl Johan Petrus Ridenfeldt.

    Published: December 1, 2006 6:52 AM

  • Jim Fedako

    What does it mean to own the intangible? If I am in a great need of assistance and the only person around is someone named Rhonda, do I owe the Beach Boys royalties if I were to shout, “Help me Rhonda; Help, help me Rhonda,” in desperation?

    Published: December 1, 2006 7:10 AM

  • Wild Pegasus

    If such is the case, how come that a myriad of poets, composers, and computer programmers are constantly allowed to appropriate partial rights to ownership over material (such as, e. g., paper, ink, and computer hardware) that is already in my legitimate sphere of ownership?

    Say you practice rifle-shooting over an empty, unused field behind your farm. Someone moves onto the field and builds a house on it. Can you still shoot your rifle over the field?

    – Josh

    Published: December 1, 2006 9:43 AM

  • chanceH

    Say you practice rifle-shooting over an empty, unused field behind your farm. Someone moves onto the field and builds a house on it. Can you still shoot your rifle over the field?

    I could. You couldn’t though. I’m a descendant of Atok of the Bear Clan who orignally patented the process of “House Building”, and I inheirited all his intellectual property. Well, at first I didn’t inherit it, but Congress recently retroactively extended certain the lifespan of certain types of IP. So, by building a house without paying me the appropriate royalty, you forfeit all actual property claims.

    Published: December 1, 2006 1:23 PM

  • quasibill

    “Say you practice rifle-shooting over an empty, unused field behind your farm. Someone moves onto the field and builds a house on it. Can you still shoot your rifle over the field?”

    No, but you can evict the person who builds the house, as you have assumed ownership over the field by using it (if you can, in fact, prove that you have been so using it). After you evict them, through the use of force if necessary, you can resume the use of your rightfully owned property.

    Published: December 1, 2006 2:00 PM

  • Carl Johan Petrus Ridenfeldt

    Wild Pegasus writes:

    Say you practice rifle-shooting over an empty, unused field behind your farm. Someone moves onto the field and builds a house on it. Can you still shoot your rifle over the field?

    A sufficient history of rifle-shooting over a specific stretch of land would surely entitle me to a rifle-shooting easement pertaining to said plot; so, yes, I would be entitled to continue my rifle-shooting activities.

    The subsequent homesteader has moved to the nuisance. The nuisance has not moved to him. This is a rather easy application of the crucial prior-later distinction in libertarian property law.

    Published: December 1, 2006 3:01 PM

  • averros

    Huh? The paper is amazingly vague and irrelevant.

    There’s nothing “in between” information and matter/energy – they are different physical entities. (Note that information relevant to the IP discussions is classical information, not quantum – quantum information cannot be copied).

    Correspondingly, there is no “middle road” of consistent compromise between those who say that information can be owned and those who say that it cannot.

    Published: December 1, 2006 9:54 PM

  • Artisan

    „The neighbor owner must be evicted and I m still allowed to fire my rifle for fun over his field like I always did (kill him perhaps?).“
    Jeez. What a great way to extend your lawn under “libertarian” rule!

    Either these examples are stated here to display the absurdity of some formulation of the concept of homesteading, or we can be sure that libertarian ideology will never be a threat to any form of modern political or socialist society!

    My opinion: I’m happy in a way, that the IP debate has been re-centred on homesteading, since it seems to be the most problematic aspect of the libertarian property definition. It is subject to the most interpretation in any case… not just the major differences between Locke and Rothbard.

    This being said: even a naked property can be assumed to host once in a while its owner. This proviso should be included in the land purchase act perhaps (I don’t see why there has to be a house?) Anybody who, in the name of homesteading, is shooting over the neighbor’s land, or threatening to evict the builder from a newly build house on that neighbor’s ground for that reason, can’t be quite a decent person. He can’t even argue he’s shooting “over” his head… since the bullet has to land somewhere… on another ground beyond (well OK perhaps it’s his too…) and prevent someone else to just “walk around” on his land.

    I’m rather confident the same interpretation goes in fact for the building of an overcast roof over the neighbor’s naked land. Less the neighbor’s land is bought afterwards, but otherwise, the neighbor would argue he used to walk around and take a sun tan on his “naked ground” that’s homesteading of resource too, right?

    Published: December 4, 2006 8:00 AM

  • quasibill

    artisan – you are question begging again:

    “Anybody who, in the name of homesteading, is shooting over the neighbor’s land, or threatening to evict the builder from a newly build house on that neighbor’s ground for that reason, can’t be quite a decent person.”

    It’s not “the neighbor’s land”! That’s exactly the point! It’s YOUR land, as you have homesteaded it! This is the problem with most IP proponents, such as Machan’s article – they are at best vague and non-commital, at worst disingenuous and self-contradictory. Either you believe in homesteaded property rights, or you believe in property rights that are granted by state decree. There is no middle road.

    Heck, if I follow your heart-felt philosophy, please e-mail your address so I can build a house in your backyard. I can always use a vacation home somewhere…

    And you (purposely?) misread my post – I said you evict them, not just continue shooting (although the more right wing types, like apparently CJPR, will claim you can do just that). I said you do everything you can to resolve it peacefully by evicting them, with the ultimate resort to violence if necessary – at which point THEY are the aggressors.

    Published: December 4, 2006 10:40 AM

  • Artisan

    Sorry Quasibill, possibly I misread your post. But I still cannot believe you’re serious, even if you only want to “evict” that neighbor. You must at least admit homesteading like you explain it is a bit confusing.

    And please, let’s not just talk directly about IP, since I know we will hardly agree over such a hot topic. Let’s just talk about our smallest common libertarian conviction… concerning homesteading.

    OK, so you were talking about an “empty” neighboring field. Could you be more precise? Is it empty because the owner is not there, or because you’re on mars and you just happen to be the only human living in that field of gravity? Admit at least it’s damn hard nowadays in the US to own land and have an un-owned empty field next door.

    Because if it’s just the fact that the owner of the land next to you in your example happens to be absent, that would mean you suggest neighboring homesteaded property rights apply as soon as somebody leaves his property unattended… You don’t mean that do you? What do you mean?

    Libertarian homesteading only goes for exploitation rights of previously unowned resources, as far as I’m concerned. Realistically: things like an oil field, or solar energy, etc…

    Published: December 4, 2006 3:46 PM

  • Stephan Kinsella

    I commented on Machan’s paper in my post Owning Thoughts and Labor.

    Published: December 11, 2006 11:52 AM

***

Intellectual Property and the Right to Private Property

Tibor R. Machan

Mises.org working paper (2004)

Intellectual Property and the Right to Private Property.pdf

Over the years there has been a debate among supporters of the free market concerning whether so called intellectual property is something to which one may have a private property right. One central element of the case, as advanced by some, is that because intellectual property is intangible, and tangibility makes what is owned rather easy to identify, intellectual “stuff,” such as a novel, poem, musical composition, or screenplay cannot be owned.

This is not just some abstract exercise without concrete implications and applications. In early 2002 a Congressional debate took place in which Disney’s Michael Eisner squared off with Intel’s Leslie L. Vadasz, both claiming that the concept of private property rights supported their conflicting positions about whether Congress should regulate the digital technology industry. Eisner claimed that common standards are needed to give protection to the rights of those who provide the content for digital products that can easily be pirated via the Internet. Vadasz argued, in contrast, that he supports the property rights of consumers to purchase and use whatever equipment might be available in the market place for use as copying devices, such as DVD or CD burners.

What makes this contrite debate especially interesting is that both sides invoke the right to private property and advocate that it be vigorously protected. Eisner thinks such protection must involve establishing common standards for reproducing intellectual property, while Vadasz believes that the protection should involve rejecting any requirement for such common standards.

There is certainly something at least initially plausible about both views. Creators of music, poems, movies, and other “intellectual” stuff have produced something over which they rightly insist they must have control. It is, after all, their work, so just as a person who enters the labor market has the right to set the terms under which he or she will exchange his time and skills for wages and salaries, so those who create intellectual content should have this right, as well, as the right to obtain protection for them from the legal authorities. (And it doesn’t matter that a person’s body originates with parents, with food others have produced, and with various natural and artificial processes that are not of that person’s creation.)

Those who produce devices that enable people to make use of creative stuff that is accessible via, say, the Internet or television, such as, say, TiVo receives, also have the right to private property and should not be interfered with. So when others try to bar them from using their devices, arguably this should also be prevented.

Just exactly how to navigate this terrain is something being worked out via the thinking and creative imaginings of innumerable scholars, legal theorists and philosophers of property. The attempt, in the meanwhile, to defend the case for treating intellectual property differently from other kinds by reference to its intangible character has some difficulties.

Sure, what is tangible is more subject to delimitation and capable of being controlled by an owner than something that is intangible. A car or dresser is such a tangible item of property, whereas a novel or musical composition tends to be fuzzy or less than distinct. One cannot grab a hold of a portion of a novel, such as one of its characters, as one can a portion of a house, say a dresser.

Yet intellectual property isn’t entirely intangible, either. Consider that a musical composition, on its face, fits the bill of being intangible, yet as it appears, mainly in a performance or on record, it takes on tangible form—meaning it is something perceivable by human senses. The sounds comprising it are in this sense tangible—at least perceivable. Consider, also, a design, say of an Omega watch. It is manifest as the watch’s shape, color, and so on. Or, again, how about a poem or musical arrangement? Both usually make their appearance in tangible form, such as the marks in a book or the distinctive style of the sounds made by a band. These may be different from a rock, dresser, top soil or building but they aren’t exactly ghosts or spirits, either.

The tangible-intangible distinction is not a good one for what can and cannot be owned and, thus, treated as distinctive enough to be related to owners. Indeed, the distinction seems to derive from a more fundamental one, in the realm of philosophy and its basic branch, metaphysics.

In a dualist world, reality would come in either a material or a spiritual rendition. Our bodies, for example, are material objects, whereas our minds or souls are spiritual or at least immaterial ones. This goes back to a certain renditions of Plato’s division of reality into the two realms, actual and ideal, although in Plato particular instances of poems or novels belong to the actual realm. A less sophisticated version of dualism, however, suggests the kind of division that’s hinted at through the tangible-intangible distinction. In nature we may have physical things as well as stuff that lacks any physical component, say our minds or ideas. Yet much that isn’t strictly and simply physical is intimately connected with what is, such as our minds (to our brains) and ideas (to the medium in which they are expressed).

It might also appear that the theological division between the natural and supernatural mirrors the tangible-intangible division but that, too, is misleading since no one who embraces that division would

 

classify a poem or novel as supernatural. Thus it seems that there isn’t much hope in the distinction some critics of intellectual property invoke. The tangible-intangible distinction seems to be independent of the usual types of ontological dualism and so the case against intellectual property based on it, then, seems unfounded. If there is such a distinction, between ordinary and intellectual property, it would need to be made in terms of distinctions that occur in nature, without recourse to anything like the supernatural realm. Supposedly, then, in nature itself there are two fundamentally different types of beings, tangible and intangible ones. Is this right?

Again, it may seem at first inspection that it is. We have, say, a brick, on the one hand, and a poem, on the other. But we also have something very unlike a brick, for example, smoke or vapor or clouds. In either case it’s not a problem to identify and control the former, while the latter tend to be defuse and allusive. We also have liquids, which are not so easy to identify and control as bricks but more so than gases. Indeed, it seems that there is a continuum of kinds of beings, from the very dense ones to the more and more defuse ones, leading all the way to what appear to be pure ideas, such as poems or theater set designs.

So, when we consider the matter apart from some alleged basic distinction between tangible and intangible stuff, one that seems to rest on certain problematic philosophical theories, there does not appear to be any good reason to divide the world into tangible versus intangible things. Differentiation seems to be possible in numerous ways, on a continuum, not into two exclusive categories. Nor, again, does it seem to be the case that there is anything particularly intellectual about, say, cigarette smoke or pollutants, albeit they are very difficult to identify and control. They are, in other words, not intellectual beings, whatever those may be, yet neither are they straightforwardly tangible.

I would like to explore the possibility of a very different distinction, namely, one between what is untouched by human meaning and whatever is subject to it. For example, there would be no poems without intentions, decisions, deliberations and so forth.

There would, however, be trees, rocks, fish or lakes and laws of physics or biology. Is it the point of those who deny that rights to intellectual property are possible that when people produce their intentional or deliberate objects, such as poems, novels, names, screenplays, designs, compositions, or arrangements, these things cannot be owned? But this is quite paradoxical.

The very idea of the right to private property is tied, in at least one school of the classical liberal tradition—starting with William of Ockham, to John Locke, and Ayn Rand—to human intention. It is the decision “to mix one’s labor” with a portion of nature that serves for Locke as the basis for just acquisition. In the case of such current champions of this basic individual right, such as James Sadowsky and Israel Kirzner, it is the first judgment made by someone, to invest something with value, that serves to make something an item of private property. Something similar appears to be at work in Rand’s version of how private property is acquired. (This is a different issue from what justifies the institution of private property rights as part of a legal infrastructure. On that issue, see Tibor R. Machan, The Right to Private Property [Stanford, CA: Hoover Institution Pres, 2002].)

However all of this comes out in the end, one thing is certain: the status of something as private property appears to hinge on its being in significant measure an intentional object—its status as a private owned entity has to do with in what mental relation is stands with an agent. But then it would seem that so called intellectual stuff is an even better candidate for qualifying as private property than is, say, a tree or mountain. Both of the latter only come to be related to human intentions, whereas a poem or novel cannot have their essential identity without having been intended (mentally created) by human beings.

I am not certain what the outcome should be from these and related considerations. They do suggest something that is part of both the ordinary and the so called “intellectual” property traditions, namely, that when human beings are agents of creation, when they make something on their own initiative—when they invest the world with their distinctive effort, they gain just or rightful (justified) possession of what they have produced. That is to say, they have exercised their right to private property and become owners of such creations/productions. And if there is anything that they produce more completely than such items as poems or computer games, I do not know what it might be.

So quite apart from the often mentioned utilitarian, public policy defense of copyrights or intellectual property, there is what I take to be the more fundamental and pre-legal issue of when is someone or how does one get to be the owner of something. If there is such a way, then whether this issues in incentives or such is secondary at most. The central issue is, instead, whether when someone produces or creates a work—poem, novel, song, arrangement, computer program, game, or the like (excluding all discoveries)—he or she may be deprived of these without permission? I think not.

Machan teaches business ethics at Chapman University, Orange, CA. He is research fellow at the Hoover Institution and advises Freedom Communications, Inc., on libertarian issues. His most recent book is Objectivity (Ashgate, 2004).

Share
{ 4 comments }