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Patent on a Stick


Interesting “invention”: “Animal Toy,” U.S. Pat. No. 6,360,693, “inventor” Ross Eugene Long, III. The patent was filed on Dec 2, 1999 and issued Mar 26, 2002, meaning it will be in force until December 2019 (20 years from the filing date). It’s basically a patent on a stick that a dog can play with–a stick that floats and has a part of a branch protruding from one end:

1. An animal toy, comprising:

(a) a solid main section having a diameter and a longitudinal length and extending a predetermined distance along said longitudinal length; and
(b) at least one protrusion attached at one end thereof said main section and extending a predetermined distance therefrom and wherein said at least one protrusion includes a second longitudinal axis that is not in parallel alignment with a first longitudinal axis of said solid main section;
and wherein said animal toy is adapted to float on the water.

(h/t Tuur Demeester) For examples of other ridiculous or absurd patents, see patently silly; PatentLawPractice Wiki; Gene Patent Absurdity; Christmas tree stand watering system; other examples in The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism [PPT; PDF].

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The “Artistic Freedom Voucher” [sic]

Dean Baker, in “The Market and Inequality: Progressives Lose When They Accept the Right’s Framing,” writes:

Patent and copyright monopolies are another way in which the government redistributes income upward. The income from these government granted monopolies flows overwhelmingly to people in the top 10 percent of the income distribution. These interventions in the market serve a purpose, but there are other ways to support research and creative activity that are more efficient and lead to less inequality.

Now, don’t think Baker is opposed to IP. As noted by Roderick Long here, “Timothy Lee writes:  ‘I can’t agree with Baker that all copyright and patent monopolies are illegitimate.’ I’m actually not sure that’s Baker’s view (in his original response Baker remarks in passing, ‘there may be areas in which patents are an effective policy for promoting innovation’).” In that exchange, Long rightly criticizes Baker’s proposal for “a system in which the government allocates a pot of money (@$30 billion a year – approximately equal to private R&D in the pharmaceutical sector) that would be awarded in long-term contracts to a relatively small number of master contractors”. (I criticize this and related proposals in What’s Worse: $80 Billion or $30 Million?; Libertarian Favors $80 Billion Annual Tax-Funded “Medical Innovation Prize Fund”; $30 Billion Taxfunded Innovation Contracts: The “Progressive-Libertarian” Solution) Here we have someone pretending to criticize patent and copyright (but not really), and in the name of “equality” and “efficiency” proposing to take taxpayer money and give it to supplicants a state appointed panel of experts deems “worthy.” I’m sure this would do wonders for technological and scientific research. In the first Baker comment quoted above, he links to his 2004 paper, “Financing Drug Research: What Are the Issues?“, which “examines four alternatives to the patent system,” to-wit:

1) A proposal by Tim Hubbard and James Love for a mandatory employer-based research fee to be distributed through intermediaries to researchers (Love 2003); 2) A proposal by Aidan Hollis for zero-cost compulsory licensing patents, in which the patent holder is compensated based on the rated quality of life improvement generated by the drug, and the extent of its use (Hollis 2004); 3) A proposal by Michael Kremer for an auction system in which the government purchases most drug patents and places them in the public domain (Kremer 1998); and 4) A proposal by Representative Dennis Kucinich to finance pharmaceutical research through a set of competing publicly supported research centers (Kucinich 2004).

All horrible, socialistic-interventionistic ideas. It’s no surprise that someone who wants to have the state subsidize science also wants to subsidize the arts. His second reference is to his 2003 paper, “The Artistic Freedom Voucher: Internet Age Alternative to Copyrights.” This paper argues for the following:

The Artistic Freedom Voucher (AFV) would allot about $20 billion of taxpayer money to be paid to individual musicians or groups and allow the public to exchange, download, reproduce and enjoy creative work legally, efficiently and inexpensively. Every adult could voluntarily give their $100 voucher to a musician or group of musicians; this is enough to support 500,000 artists with a salary of $40,000 per year. Musicians would still be able to receive income from concerts and other live performances, where musicians usually make most of their money, anyway. The AFV is an alternative to the copyright system. The AFV would work with technology and the internet to make music free and downloadable for the public, while at the same time ensure that musicians can make a living as artists rather than living as “starving artists.”

Yet another horrible idea–no better than educational vouchers. (And I see now that it has previously been criticized in J. Mark Stanley, “The False Freedom of Art Vouchers,” Mises Daily (April 29, 2010).)

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Objectivist Greg Perkins on Intellectual Property

From Mises blog; archived comments below.

Back in 2006, Objectivist Greg Perkins wrote a defense of IP entitled Don’t Steal This Article!: On the Libertarian Critique of Intellectual Property. Perkins’s post was part of an attempt by Objectivists to mount a defense of IP given the mounting opposition to IP among libertarians (see The Death Throes of Pro-IP Libertarianism) and even among some Objectivists (see An Objectivist Recants on IP).1

[Update: Yet another lame Objectivist defense of IP; Objectivists Hsieh and Perkins on IP and Pirating Music]

I discussed his article a bit in my post Elaborations on Randian IP, but never took the time to do a detailed response.2 His articles doesn’t contradict my assessment that There are No Good Arguments for Intellectual Property. Neither do the writings of Objectivist law professor Adam Mossoff, who is said to be writing a defense of IP, as mentioned in the Objectivist “Noodlefood” blog post An Objectivist Recants on IP??. (Mossoff’s recent article, How the “New GM” Can Steal from Toyota, provides no reason to think he’ll be able to come up with a solid defense of IP–the latest one is full of unjustified assumptions and flawed arguments about IP.)3 [continue reading…]

  1. By the way since then, other Objectivists have begun to question the Objectivist take on IP; when I delivered the speech “Intellectual Freedom and Learning versus Patent and Copyright” at the 2010 Students For Liberty Texas Regional Conference in Austin (Nov. 6, 2010) (video; audio), one young lady in the front of the audience was listening intently, with an almost tortured scowl; I wondered if the talk was going badly. At the student pizza party afterwards, she told me she was an Objectivist, and when I mentioned the expression on her face, she said she had been concentrating hard during the lecture because I was persuading her of the anti-IP position. []
  2. I’ve noted deficiencies in his or similar arguments in various publications, such as Perkins on Pursuing Insufficiently Abundant Intangible “Values”; Against Intellectual Property; Objectivist Law Prof Mossoff on Copyright; or, the Misuse of Labor, Value, and Creation Metaphors; Elaborations on Randian IP; An Objectivist Recants on IP; “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism” (in particular see here and the section on Libertarian Creationism); Rand on IP, Owning “Values”, and “Rearrangement Rights”; Libertarian Creationism; Inventors are Like Unto …GODS…; Intellectual Products and the Right to Private Property; New Working Paper: Machan on IP; Owning Thoughts and Labor [Rothbard and Hoppe on 1988 Panel], Mises Blog (Dec. 11, 2006); and Objectivists on IP; and in media, I discuss problems with Rand’s view at length on the Peter Mac show and at the Mises University this year; also The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism. []
  3. I discuss problems with Rand’s view at length on the Peter Mac show and at the Mises University; also IP: The Objectivists Strike Back!; The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism; Rand on IP, Owning “Values”, and “Rearrangement Rights”; Libertarian Creationism; Objectivist Law Prof Mossoff on Copyright; or, the Misuse of Labor, Value, and Creation Metaphors; Inventors are Like Unto …GODS…; Intellectual Products and the Right to Private Property; New Working Paper: Machan on IP; Owning Thoughts and Labor; also Elaborations on Randian IP; and Objectivists on IP. See also Hsieh and Mossoff on IP and Sewing Machines; Adam Mossoff in the WSJ. []
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Query for Schulman on Patents and Logorights

From Mises blog. Archived comments below.

Query for Schulman on Patents and Logorights

01/12/2011

I’ve disagreed before with J. Neil Schulman on IP issues — see Kinsella v. Schulman on Logorights and IP. Here’s an edited version of a query I put to him on Facebook this morning:

Neil, in your Logorights article, you say (if you’ll forgive me copying your pattern):

if you think creation isn’t essential to the origin of property–then compose your own damn symphonies, write your own damn novels, invent your own damn computer–much less figure out how to program it–design your own damn houses, film your own damn movies, and come up with the damned recipe for bread on your own…”

A couple of questions about this.

1. Your formulation implies you think IP/logorights in inventions (computers etc.) has to do with COPYING others’ ideas. But are you aware that patent law has nothing to do wtih copying? (See Common Misconceptions about Plagiarism and Patents: A Call for an Independent Inventor Defense.) That even if you independently invent something, you can be sued? Even if you invented it first?

So does this mean you would favor a prior user or independent inventor defense to patent infringement?

If so, are you aware that this would largely gut patent law and subject you to the same “you are an IP commie” excoriations heaped upon me by the pro-IP side?

I.e., are you basically only in favor of copyright, but NOT patent? (In which case… your computer and house examples are inapt, as they are the subject of patent not copyright law.)

Moreover, while is is unlikely for someone to write Alongside Night if they never heard of yours, for most technical innovations this is not so: most of them eventually would get invented by someone. So patenting it and making this public does deprive others of independently inventing the invention. Suppose I would have invented a new mousetrap in 2 years; you patent it and sell it. I learn of it a year earlier than otherwise so now I cannot independently invent. You “spoiled” it for me as when someone reveals the ending of a movie. Why can you use the fact that you gave information to others to restrict their use of it?

2. Ideas, information, logos–are used to guide human action (see Knowledge is Power). Action uses knowledge of causal laws to manipulate scarce means, as guided by such knowledge. I assume you are not opposed to learning: the acquisition of knowledge. So how do you distinguish the learning of information about how others use their property, which you want to prohibit unless there is permission from the “owner,” from learning in general, which presumably you do not want to prohibit?

Archived comments:

{ 80 comments… read them below or add one }

Silas Barta January 12, 2011 at 1:56 pm

If so, are you aware that this would largely gut patent law

Ever plan to substantiate this one? You really think patents would be irrelevant with an independent inventor defense? Would thousands of lil Pharmas have come out of the woodwork the moment Viagra’s patent was filed, to show how they had independently discovered the same thing?

and subject you to the same “you are an IP commie” excoriations heaped upon me by the pro-IP side?

I don’t think any IP proponents have ever deemed someone a communist for wanting the right to use independently invented ideas. Cite?

(J/K, you still don’t have to take this topic seriously or anything, it’s not really a priority what with all your acolytes.)

REPLY

Stephan Kinsella January 12, 2011 at 2:56 pm

You are clueless as usual. Of course defenders of patent law would fight tooth and nail from making it like copyright–from making copying an eleemnt of the offense. You have no clue what you are talking about.

As for acolytes–they are not. people are seeing the injustice of IP with their own eyes, their own reason. Why do you think this is? I’m not some pied piper dude.

Anyway an independent inventor defense is still not enough: if I would have invented something in a year independently but now you blab your idea so that I am unable to, why should I be penalized because you opened your trap?

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Silas Barta January 12, 2011 at 3:11 pm

You are clueless as usual. Of course defenders of patent law would fight tooth and nail from making it like copyright–from making copying an eleemnt of the offense. You have no clue what you are talking about.

And this has *what* to do with the validity of IP (copyright/patent) as such, again? Cause … that’s what I’m defending, not the latest fads among lobbyists. How about if I attributed every “pro-market” corporate lobbyist’s position to you as if it were what you believed? You probably wouldn’t like it either.

As for acolytes–they are not. people are seeing the injustice of IP with their own eyes, their own reason. Why do you think this is? I’m not some pied piper dude.

You pander to their need to justify their downloading — not hard work, to push someone in the direction of their existing biases. It’s easy to make a man believe something when his Taylor Swift downloading depends on him believing it.

Here’s a test: has any one of your IP fans said, “Hey, Stephan_Kinsella, I like your work, but this particular argument over here isn’t quite right, even though I agree with your conclusion”? None?

Gee, what are the odds that everyone would have the *exact same* thoughts as you on the issue after being informed of your works? What are the odds that instead they reach some point and then just stop thinking about anything that’s “on our side”?

Anyway an independent inventor defense is still not enough: if I would have invented something in a year independently but now you blab your idea so that I am unable to, why should I be penalized because you opened your trap?

Is this really that hard for you to think about? I mean, are you asking me because you can’t figure out basic solutions to problems like that, or because you think it’s some damning argument against all IP? Because it looks like the obvious answer here is that you would be entitled to use the invention earlier than others but later than the first creator — no more complex than any other kind of issue that can arise under common law, including that which involves physical property rights.

Your question is a lot like asking, “why should I be penalized if you reached a plot of land first, but only 1 millisecond before me?”

It’s the kind of thing that you need to follow up with “Or did I just blow your mind???”

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Karl Marx January 12, 2011 at 3:45 pm

You pander to their need to justify their downloading — not hard work, to push someone in the direction of their existing biases. It’s easy to make a man believe something when his Taylor Swift downloading depends on him believing it.

Right on, Silas! The doctrine of private property exists only to justify the horrible oppression of the bourgeois against the downtrodden proletariat. Those who oppose IP do so in order to justify their own actions to themselves. This fact alone means their positions do not need to be rationally considered.

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 2:54 pm

*Wonders why he’s bothering*

“Those who oppose IP do so in order to justify their own actions to themselves. This fact alone means their positions do not need to be rationally considered.”

And welcome to the polylogism of Marxism. There is no absolute truth, only “bourgeois” truth or “proletariat” truth. Nevermind the status of polylogism itself, which would only mean anything if it were absolutely, universally true. This is what Marxists don’t bother themselves with, because it distracts from their dazzling cartoon narrative that is human existence (I’ve always wondered why the proletariat were automatically the good guys!).

Of course if poor Marxists weren’t stuck in their labor theory of value (which is apparently true no matter what class you come from) they would see that the “proletariat” standard of living rises with the “bourgeois” standard of living. That the gap between them grows wider does not mean they are moving in the opposite direction.

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Stephan Kinsella January 12, 2011 at 3:49 pm

“And this has *what* to do with the validity of IP (copyright/patent) as such, again?”

what is it “as such” Silas? nobody knows. it’s an artificial statute, helloo.

“Cause … that’s what I’m defending, not the latest fads among lobbyists.”

YOu mean, like the copyright clause and copyright act in force for 200 years? got it.

“You pander to their need to justify their downloading”

petty and pathetic psychologizing. these people are sincere. Unlike you.

“Here’s a test: has any one of your IP fans said, “Hey, Stephan_Kinsella, I like your work, but this particular argument over here isn’t quite right, even though I agree with your conclusion”? None?”

Many. One of the greatest of the new IP critics, Peter Surda, is a perfect example. NOt that is is relevant.

“Gee, what are the odds that everyone would have the *exact same* thoughts as you on the issue after being informed of your works? What are the odds that instead they reach some point and then just stop thinking about anything that’s “on our side”?”

good substantive critique, Silas. NOT.

“Your question is a lot like asking, “why should I be penalized if you reached a plot of land first, but only 1 millisecond before me?””

Well, there is only one plot of land. the first guy has a better claim to it than the second. Luckily, information can be replicated and used by millions simultaneously. hellooo

“It’s the kind of thing that you need to follow up with “Or did I just blow your mind???””

No, I am well aware by now of your monomaniacal irrationality. And that’s what it is: pure irrationalism.

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Silas Barta January 12, 2011 at 4:06 pm

what is it “as such” Silas? nobody knows. it’s an artificial statute, helloo.

Like property law?

You mean, like the copyright clause and copyright act in force for 200 years? got it.

Or the state-supported property rights have been in force for 200 years? Got it.

Many. One of the greatest of the new IP critics, Peter Surda, is a perfect example. NOt that is is relevant.

Oh, really? Point me to this pointed criticism that you respectfully handled.

petty and pathetic psychologizing. these people are sincere. Unlike you.

Evidence for this?

“Gee, what are the odds that everyone would have the *exact same* thoughts as you on the issue after being informed of your works? What are the odds that instead they reach some point and then just stop thinking about anything that’s “on our side”?”

good substantive critique, Silas. NOT.

How so? Where does this argument break down? Or are you just dismissing it without argument?

Well, there is only one plot of land. the first guy has a better claim to it than the second.

Really? Your support for a right is based on the nearly random factor of who was 1 millisecond ahead? So pretty much *any* method of distributing property rights would be okay, since you are fine with random factors being the determinant? You the mere fact of the allocation is far more important than what it is based on?

No, I am well aware by now of your monomaniacal irrationality. And that’s what it is: pure irrationalism.

Thanks for the serious intellectual engagement.

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Peter Surda January 12, 2011 at 5:26 pm

Evidence for this?

You mean your running away cowardly from debates? Nah, does not happen, right?

Peter Surda January 13, 2011 at 6:22 am

Silas,

And this has *what* to do with the validity of IP (copyright/patent) as such, again?

So I guess in your eyes James Randi is also a loser, because his debunking efforts cannot disprove magic as such.

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DixieFlatline January 13, 2011 at 3:36 am

Stephan Kinsella
why should I be penalized because you opened your trap?

Your productivity is penalized every time Silas opens his trap aka trolling the Mises Blog, which seems to be his full time, every day project.

REPLY

Sione January 12, 2011 at 2:33 pm

Silas

And again you act the degenerate fool.This behaviour of yours has been challenged on previous threads. If you are going to make a case for IP as property you are going to need to actually make it. That’s going to take a work of academic schoarship, which it appears you are utterly incapable of producing.

Anyway, knowing that you have few who agree with your emotings (and that includes most of the pro-IP people I correspond with, as they too consider you foolish and berift of anything of value to contribute to th IP debate) the honest thing for you to do would be to head off and set up your own site, “Silas’ theory of IP as property”, featuring any evidence and justifications you reckon you can provide for any of the claims you present. Anyone who is interested in you can visit that site to see what you have to say and ask you questions about your ideas and/or discuss them with you. For you to return here, month after month, year after year, making the same smears, sniping and presenting the same superficial complaints is foolish. It is dishonest. If you really were serious about your theory of IP as property you surely would present a paper about it explaining your position in detail. If you are unwilling to do that, have the common honesty to admit that you have nothing of value to say and pull your head in.

Sione

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David Bratton January 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm

“Would thousands of lil Pharmas have come out of the woodwork the moment Viagra’s patent was filed, to show how they had independently discovered the same thing?”

Maybe not, but software patents would certainly be a thing of the past.

REPLY

J. Neil Schulman January 12, 2011 at 4:14 pm

Stephan,

I’m an advocate neither for current statist copyright laws nor for current statist patent laws. I will not defend them.

My logorights article defines the natural property rights concept in material identity that I’m willing to defend.

Neil

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Silas Barta January 12, 2011 at 4:17 pm

@J._Neil_Schulman:

Stephan,I’m an advocate neither for current statist copyright laws nor for current statist patent laws. I will not defend them.

You must be new to how Stephan_Kinsella operates.

If you support any kind of IP, he assumes you support the exact current statist IP system as it currently stands, irrespective of any future clarification of your position.

REPLY

Peter Surda January 12, 2011 at 5:28 pm

If you support any kind of IP, he assumes you support the exact current statist IP system as it currently stands, irrespective of any future clarification of your position.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet Silas?

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:23 am

Please keep using that out of context… It’s hilarious!

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Peter Surda January 13, 2011 at 7:20 am

Well, in case you didn’t get it, it’s supposed to be a party of IP proponents, like Silas and you, who use a non-sequitur as their primary working method, and cowardly running away from a debate as a backup plan.

REPLY

Peter Surda January 13, 2011 at 7:27 am

I meant parody, not party. Apologies, apparently I’m not at my best today.

Peter Surda January 12, 2011 at 5:24 pm

Neil,

I read your article about logorights some time ago, when Stephan was blogging about it before. Actually, I only read a part of it. I also wanted to reply, but couldn’t, because it says any use of it apart from reading is reserved. That alone should prove the absurdity of the concept.

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Peter January 12, 2011 at 8:53 pm

I haven’t read it, but if that’s the case, I won’t read it: there’s a serious danger I just may end up agreeing with some of it, and then I’d have to somehow excise it from my brain to avoid making use of any knowledge I might have gained from reading it, and I don’t know how to do that, so it’s safest just to avoid reading it!

REPLY

J. Neil Schulman January 12, 2011 at 10:39 pm

Apparently you didn’t read the part where I said I did like the idea of delimited fair usage.

REPLY

Peter Surda January 13, 2011 at 6:47 am

Dear J. Neil Schulman,

first of all, apologies for abbreviating your name in my previous post, that was an error on my part.

Apparently you didn’t read the part where I said I did like the idea of delimited fair usage.

Which you do not define. Let’s see what you say:

It is a utilitarian decision that says that so long as the use of part of a copyrighted work is educational or isn’t a significant enough part to adversely affect the market value of that work, it will be considered that the property owner is going to allow this as a courtesy to the public–whether that owner likes it or not.

You vaguely refer to “educational”, and “significantly affecting market value”. What is that?

Nevertheless, let’s say that I wrote a highly emotional, for example humourous (=non-educational) critique of your works and in the consequence of this, people will stop buying your works (=significantly affect their market value). According to your own, however vague, references, this is not fair use because it does not fulfil any of the criteria you specify. Add to it that it is impossible to know in advance how the critique will affect the market value of your work, and once the critique is out, I have no control over how other people react to it. Should I be responsible for acts of other people then? How come?

It has been my observation that IP proponents typically spent an enormous amount of time on justification of IP, but preciously little on the definition thereof or elementary logic.

You begin, for example, by defining logos by referencing patterns, but do not define what a pattern is. You show examples of patterns, but not a definition. You say instead:

By logos I mean exactly: an order, array, pattern, or form of information which can be imposed upon or observed in a material substance: specifically, a thing’s material identity.

So, taking this very vague sentence, can you provide me an example of something that is not a logos?

REPLY

Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:21 am

You will find little use in attempting to reason here, I am afraid.

Kinsella and the various (overwhelmingly anonymous, isn’t that strange!) anti-IP crowd here will settle for nothing less than total IP annihilation!

It reminds me of that famous quote from the Vietnam war: “We had to destroy the village to save it.”

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:24 am

“You will find little use in attempting to reason here, I am afraid.”

Oh so it’s your use of reason that leads you to believe that all blogging here that is opposed to IP is really just being ghostwritten by Kinsella?

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 1:02 am

Who are you, again?

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 2:16 am

By pasting the word “Libertarian” on your website, you are misrepresenting yourself wayyy more than I do by using a pseudonym. I don’t specify. At least I don’t outright lie.

“Communism could work” cries the “libertarian”!! Dear lord…

REPLY

Stephan Kinsella January 13, 2011 at 12:34 am

Yes, we want total IP (patent and copyright) annihilation, along with tax, antitrust law, and drug war annihilation. How unreasonable we are!

REPLY

Stephan Kinsella January 13, 2011 at 1:05 am

“Kinsella and the various (overwhelmingly anonymous, isn’t that strange!) anti-IP crowd here will settle for nothing less than total IP annihilation!”This unintentionally funny line (no wonder Narby is opposed to principled or radical thinking; he’s apparently some politician type http://www.dave4assembly.com/) — anywya it reminds me of Loren Lomasky’s comments in his review of Hoppe, and Hoppe’s reply to him:http://mises.org/resources/860/Economics-and-Ethics-of-Private-Property-Studies-in-Political-Economy-and-Philosophy-The page 408:

Loren Lomasky was intimidated and angered by my book A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism. For one, because the book is more ambitious than its title indicates. “It is,” he laments, “no less than a manifesto for untrammeled anarchism.” … So be it. But so what? As explained in my book but conveniently left unmentioned by Lomasky, untrammeled anarchism is nothing but the name for a social order of untrammeled private property rights, i.e., of the absolute right of selfownership and the absolute right to homestead unowned resources … Only someone advocating the trammeling of private property rights would take offense, as does Lomasky, with my attempt to justify a pure private-property economy. 

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Jacob January 12, 2011 at 5:32 pm

One of the options with patents is to do away with them entirely.
This will enable people to use and develop systems based on new finding without any legal issues.
Great technology is made and very few are able to use it or obtain it regarding price and they cannot make their own because of the patent.
This keeps people from progressing.

“What about infringing on that company/person business regarding their new technology if there is no patent?”
Simple. We make new laws that keep people from infringing on that business development but allow people to develop their own based on that tech for non commercial reasons unless the tech developed is entirely different.

REPLY

Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:28 am

An admirable attempt, Jacob.

But good luck with attempting to discuss even the common sense reform of IP here.

Nothing short of total destruction of all IP laws will satisfy Kinsella & co.!

Be prepared to meet an onslaught of ad hominem, pejoratives, and a tsunami of fallacies, despite the fact all of them have been refuted here: http://strangerousthoughts.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/the-economic-principles-of-intellectual-property-and-the-fallacies-of-intellectual-communism/

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:32 am

“ad hominem, pejoratives, and a tsunami of fallacies”

Oh here comes the logical name drop. Trust me, they’re in there, I’m not just gonna point any of them out.

I already responded in detail to this article, you did not respond to that. I refuted the refutations. Can you refute my refutations?

REPLY

Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 1:01 am

“I already responded in detail to this article, you did not respond to that. I refuted the refutations. Can you refute my refutations?”

WOW.

You responded to all 17 points of that article in the comments HERE?

I assume you must have saved a copy, because to do that would have taken quite a bit of time and effort!

Why not repost it so we can look at it again? I’ll keep this page open and refresh it every couple of hours so I don’t miss your response.

Or better yet, why not post it on the web somewhere?

Oh wait…

“Trust me, they’re in there, I’m not just gonna point any of them out.”

…You can’t be BOTHERED. My apologies.

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:05 am

“You responded to all 17 points of that article in the comments HERE?”

No and I didn’t say that.

“…You can’t be BOTHERED. My apologies.”

I think you misunderstood me. I was making fun of you for throwing out a laundry list of logical fallacies that supposedly exist in my posts without presenting a single one. Apparently *you* can’t be bothered.

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Stephan Kinsella January 13, 2011 at 1:08 am

Wha’? I discuss several “common sense” reform to improve the statist system you like, here:
http://mises.org/daily/4018

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Jim January 12, 2011 at 6:01 pm

Intellectual Property seems to be the adult version of schoolyard tag around here. Every single post on IP produces the same result. The long-winded work of spambots? If not, I hope that the vultures circling the Mises blog, waiting for IP posts to land on, eventually put all the effort to good use. Perhaps instead of nitpicking the same issues again and again, I think the major detractors here should put forth a competing idea. That would be a great thing. That seems to be the major difference – Kinsella has already done so. Am I missing something here? Is there one being referenced? Why bother to waste all the effort on hounding each and every single IP discussion, when you could be creating your own formal argument? It’s obviously important to Silas, here.

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:34 am

“Why bother to waste all the effort on hounding each and every single IP discussion, when you could be creating your own formal argument? ”

Oh, but several have.

FYI, Kinsella has not answered one of the points here: http://strangerousthoughts.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/the-economic-principles-of-intellectual-property-and-the-fallacies-of-intellectual-communism/

The problem is that they have no interest in reforming IP laws. They are only interested in the total removal of them. Like all fundamentalists, there’s no discussion possible, so the tactics revert to fallacies, pejoratives, and sheer volume of posts.

it will be interesting to see if Mises.org continues to sponsor them with posting privileges, or figures out they are ultimately damaging the image of Austrian economics by associating it with Intellectual Communists.

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Stephan Kinsella January 13, 2011 at 12:37 am

“it will be interesting to see if Mises.org continues to sponsor them with posting privileges, or figures out they are ultimately damaging the image of Austrian economics by associating it with Intellectual Communists.”

Given that virtually every major scholar and figure associated with MIses Institute that I’ve talked to about this agrees with my view on IP–Rockwell, French, Tucker, Huelsmann, Hoppe, Klein, DiLorenzo, Gordon, Murphy, Salerno–plus all the smart young people… it seems, er, unlikely they’ll tilt your way, Dave.

IP is dead. Only the husk of its legislated carcass remains, lumbering and threatening us like a zombie. But its days are numbered.

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 1:00 am

Interestingly, in that list you provide, the only one there I’ve contacted (Hoppe) *still has not answered any of my questions*. I’ll give him a bit more time.

But I’m starting to think he can’t answer them. Just like you can’t.

I’ll contact those other ones just to see if in fact that is the case. If so, perhaps it’s time for another proponent of Austrian economics take up the cause. It will certainly be an easier sell without the anarchism.

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:01 am

“It will certainly be an easier sell without the anarchism.”

Ever read Rothbard?

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 1:07 am

Yes, “What Has Government Done to Our Money?”

Don’t recall reading about dissolution of the state there, sorry.

…And who are you exactly, again?

sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:15 am

“Don’t recall reading about dissolution of the state there, sorry.”

Ahahahaha!! Guys, we’ve had this all wrong. Rothbard *wasn’t* an anarchist!! He *didn’t* coin the term “anarcho-capitalism”. My mind is fully blown.

How about Anatomy of the State. It’s real short.

Or Power and Market. Or the Ethics of Liberty. Or For a New Liberty.

“…And who are you exactly, again?”

Why do you care, again?

Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 1:39 am

Anarcho-Capitalism /= Anarchism.

Easy enough mistake to make I guess, what with “Anarch” being in both terms and all… Glad I could clear that up for you.

Also, Rothbard didn’t necessarily think copyright was wrong. Perhaps it’s best if you find another person to use as an example.

I care about who you are because I don’t trust you not to be a sock puppet. It speaks to credibility. Anyone who cares to know who I am can find out in a click. But you hide behind a pseudonym.

Easy enough for you to clear up, yes?

But I’ll bet good money you won’t.

sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:50 am

“Anarcho-Capitalism /= Anarchism.”

Anarcho-capitalism is a specific type of anarchism, which means Rothbard was an anarchist. You are being blatantly misleading here. Rothbard was called the “enemy of the state”. The only kind of anarchism that has ever been supported here is anarcho-capitalism. You said earlier that the sale will be easier without the anarchism, which can only mean anarcho-capitalism (the only kind of anarchism discussed here). And yet, it sounds like, you don’t have a problem with *that*.

“Easy enough mistake to make I guess, what with “Anarch” being in both terms and all… Glad I could clear that up for you.”

It was not a mistake, anarcho-capitalism is a type of anarchism, not a different thing. Why the hell call it “anarcho”-anything if it’s not a type of anarchism!?

“Also, Rothbard didn’t necessarily think copyright was wrong. Perhaps it’s best if you find another person to use as an example.”

An example for what? I asked if you had read Rothbard cause he makes the sale of anarchism real, real easy.

“I care about who you are because I don’t trust you not to be a sock puppet. It speaks to credibility.”

Ahh, yes, the “ad hominem epistemology.” The truthfulness of a proposition is a function of who utters it. It was Rothbard of all people that relentless attacked the fallacy of “great thinkers”.

“Anyone who cares to know who I am can find out in a click. But you hide behind a pseudonym.”

Who’s hiding? I don’t have a blog, I blog here.

“Easy enough for you to clear up, yes?”

My name is Danny Coleman, I am a senior undergraduate studying physics at the University of Virginia. Now you can shut the hell up about it.

“But I’ll bet good money you won’t.”

Guess someone’s got a present coming to them.

Peter January 13, 2011 at 5:48 am

I care about who you are because I don’t trust you not to be a sock puppet. It speaks to credibility. Anyone who cares to know who I am can find out in a click. But you hide behind a pseudonym.

Most people on the Internet “hide” behind a pseudonym…as they’re recommended to do by all the so-called experts on TV, etc.. If he called himself “David Johnson” instead of “sweatervest”, would that make a difference? Would he be less likely to be a sock puppet? (Not that there’s any reason to believe he is in the first place, aside from paranoia).

[And, no, we can’t find out who you are in a click. Maybe we can find out something about someone calling himself “Dave Narby”, but we can’t easily verify that that is in fact his real name, or that the person posting here using that name and web site is in fact the person referred to by the web site; anyone can type any name and URL they like. If I assume you really are the Dave Narby named at that site, I suppose there’s enough information there for me to track you down if I really wanted to…but then I’d probably be inclined to strangle you or something, so it’s probably better if I don’t…which is why you’re advised NOT to give out identifying information to random psychos on-line!]

Stephan Kinsella January 15, 2011 at 8:56 am

Why would he answer your questions? You should consider your actions and decide if you want to be a pest.

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:39 am

“Kinsella has not answered one of the points here:”

I’ve answered several.

“fundamentalists”…”Intellectual Communists”

Childish.

“it will be interesting to see if Mises.org continues to sponsor them with posting privileges”

So the answer is to put the big boot of censorship on the face of ideas you don’t want to confront?

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:50 am

You answered several? Where?

I love how you knee-jerk to censorship.

And Kinsella has a website. He posts whatever he wants there.

Are you claiming editorial control is censorship?!

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:55 am

It was a few threads back. I’ll try and find it if you’re too lazy to do it yourself.

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:09 am

It was a direct response to one of your posts, and you apparently didn’t have anything to say at the time…

sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:28 am
sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:58 am

“Are you claiming editorial control is censorship?!”

You are not the one in control of this blog. You are “hoping” that the blog shut out ideas you don’t like. I am not denying mises.org’s right to control its own blog, but they apparently don’t want us to go away. You just want them to want us go away.

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Sione January 12, 2011 at 9:31 pm

Jim

“Perhaps instead of nitpicking the same issues again and again, I think the major detractors here should put forth a competing idea.”

That would be a very good idea. That is, in essence, what I asked Silas to do.

“That seems to be the major difference – Kinsella has already done so.”

That he has, and it IS a major difference between Dr Kinsella and his detractors. What is required from the opponents of Dr Kinsella is for them to produce a complete exposition of their “IP is property” ideology complete with detailed explanation of its derivation and validation. They need to demonsrate that their derivation is valid at each and every step of the chain of thinking and identification it relies upon. At that stage it is possible for the rest of us to read and evaluate. Questions can be asked and clarifications sought.

“Why bother to waste all the effort on hounding each and every single IP discussion, when you could be creating your own formal argument?”

Why indeed. Perhaps the fact of the matter is that there is no formal argument available.

An example (since you bring him up), I challenged the Silas person to quit sniping and actually present a formal argument. Given that he’s been on this pro-IP mission of his for some considerable and extended period of time, the suspicion is that he aint up to it. He presents nothing because he has nothing to present.

” …vultures circling the Mises blog, waiting for IP posts to land on..”

An apt description that is.

Why hang around somewhere you disagree with the ideas being presented and analysed? Why loiter where you have nothing to contribute save some smearing, sniping, emoting and the like? Again, these folk (Silas included) need produce an academic treatise disclosing their ideas in critical detail. Get it published or stick it on a web site somewhere. Then those who are interested can go take a look and examine it…

Sione

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J. Neil Schulman January 12, 2011 at 10:42 pm
Silas Barta January 12, 2011 at 11:52 pm

I’m sure you’ll get a reasoned, thoughtful reply to such ideas here. *rolls eyes*

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sweatervest January 12, 2011 at 11:53 pm

I guess this is the first one.

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Edgaras January 13, 2011 at 12:11 am

classic :D

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:17 am

…Indeed.

Anthony January 13, 2011 at 12:39 am

So what is your stance on independent inventors?

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Colin Phillips January 13, 2011 at 3:44 am

Hi Neil,

Thanks for posting these. I’m not sure that I agree with all the points you made.
If I understand your position, you say that when you write a novel, you imprint a stack of paper and ink with your “logos”, but that stack of ink and paper is still your property, and you are still free to sell the rights to that stack of ink and paper as you see fit. In this case, you choose to divide up the rights to use that stack of ink and paper as follows: Your publisher and no-one else is, for a fee, allowed to copy that “logos” onto other stacks of ink and paper, and sell them. However, when the publisher sells these copies, all of which contain the same “logos”, they are only allowed to sell the rights to, say, absorb the “logos” in these stacks into their brains for personal entertainment purposes (specifically, reading), but not to use that “logos” in their stacks of paper or their brains for any other purpose. Is that a fair assessment?

If so, I don’t think I agree with your division of the rights argument – it’s not that I think you are not allowed to do so, I doubt your (or anyone else’s) ability to do so. It seems that you think you have made one piece of property into two, the stack of ink and paper, and the pattern they incorporate. I see it as one piece of property – a mixture of ink and paper, made (subjectively) more valuable to the publisher by your work in arranging the ink in a particular pattern. I don’t think it follows that that pattern is in itself a piece of property, separable from the ink and paper. By illustration, if you do not copy or memorise the pattern, and you sell the paper and ink to me, have you not lost the pattern as well? You can’t ask me to take the ink and paper, but leave the pattern behind.

Therefore, as I see it, when you “sold the pattern” to your publisher, you actually only rented the manuscript out for the purposes of copying the pattern onto other stacks of ink and paper, for a fee. When that manuscript was returned to you, and the fees paid, your rights in the patterns of the copies ended, as those new stacks of paper were never yours, they belonged to the publisher. If the publisher failed to pay you your fee, or return your manuscript to you, then I feel that just restitution would allow you to claim those books, but this is a matter for contract law, not logorights.

I hope I have understood your position, and also that I have not insulted you. These are just my first impressions upon reading your articles – I will reread them at a later stage and see whether I missed anything. Please feel free to correct me if I have mischaracterised your position.

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:34 am

Hey Sione, what was that business you said you were involved in again?

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:41 am

Ad hominem?

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:16 am

The gutter tactics of the Anti-IP crowd here gets lower every day!

At some point here Mises.org is going to figure out that the Intellectual Communists are just that, and extremely poor ambassadors for Austrian economics.

Austrian economics /= Anarchism

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:22 am

“The gutter tactics of the Anti-IP crowd here gets lower every day!”

“the Intellectual Communists are just that”

Wait, you are here to just threaten that you won’t make donations, right?

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 12:41 am

No.

I’m here to let people know that some Libertarians think intellectual Communism is laughable, and that serious people consider both Austrian economics and IP important.

Otherwise they might associate Austrian economics with Intellectual Communism and conclude Austrian economics (and Libertarians) are seriously deranged and not worthy of further consideration.

BTW, you got a real name, Mr./Ms. “sweatervest”?

It’s interesting that the pro-IP types clearly identify themselves, but most of the opponents hide behind pseudonyms (but I’m sure there’s a very good and logical reason for this).

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 12:52 am

“I’m here to let people know that some Libertarians think intellectual Communism is laughable”

If you had a point to make you wouldn’t keep hiding behind McCarthian red scares. Does anyone care what you think is laughable?

“and that serious people consider both Austrian economics and IP important.”

Sure, whoever you decide is a “serious person” is one.

“Otherwise they might associate Austrian economics with Intellectual Communism and conclude Austrian economics (and Libertarians) are seriously deranged and not worthy of further consideration.”

No, intellectual property is probably *the* biggest reason why so many people, especially in colleges, abhor the very concept of private property and see it as an unjustifiable and unfair claim to restriction of use of things that “belong to everyone”. Marxists love to talk about all the disasters intellectual property has caused and how it makes no sense that people are not allowed to download music off the internet or play a Beatles song in front of some people. They use that as a basis to condemn private property in general because they fail to see that the two concepts are antagonistic and irreconcilable. Most of the time when I hear someone trash “property”, they have a lot to say about “owning ideas”. So don’t put yourself up on a pedestal because you approach this differently than we do.

“It’s interesting that the pro-IP types clearly identify themselves, but most of the opponents hide behind pseudonyms”

Oh so obviously we’re all just Kinsella double posting. This is a dirty tactic you are using, because there is nothing I can do to convince you I am not him. I could tell you my name, and you could just say “you made that up”. This is very childish. I’ll just point out you are doing whatever you can to fill up posts without offering any insight what-so-ever to the problems at hand (I’ll admit I am doing that here as well, but only in response to you).

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 1:44 am

Sorry you have such a negative reaction to Communism. It’s actually a fine system of government, if practiced according to it’s principles. The problem is in it’s application.

But if someone is a Communist, whether with regards to IP or physical property, I’ll point that out if it’s important to the discussion.

And it’s easy enough for you to clear up who you are. After all, anyone who cares can find out who I am with a click.

It would certainly help your credibility. Why do you protest so much?

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:59 am

“Sorry you have such a negative reaction to Communism. It’s actually a fine system of government, if practiced according to it’s principles. The problem is in it’s application.”

Aaand you call yourself a libertarian. Did you hear that, folks? Mr. “Those damn IP communists” apparently doesn’t have a problem with communism. So what, then, was the point of repeatedly condemning us for being “communists”?

You have either never read Human Action or you absorbed nothing from it. That you would come here and accuse us of soiling the good name of Mises with our “IP communism”, only to come out saying “communism could work if we do it right” is nothing short of astounding. The *whole purpose* of Mises’ career was to demonstrate that economic calculation under socialism (including communism) is impossible, and there is no such thing as a planned economy, only planned chaos. You just disconnected yourself entirely from the Austrian school of economics with this remark. No Austrian thinks communism could work if done right. Mises himself said “even in a society populated by angels socialism would still fail”.

What are you doing here? Seriously? What is someone who thinks “communism could work if done right” done on a blog named after the person who dedicated his entire life to showing that communism can ever work, ever!?

“But if someone is a Communist, whether with regards to IP or physical property, I’ll point that out if it’s important to the discussion.”

Ohh right you’re not using “IP Communist” as a pejorative term…

“And it’s easy enough for you to clear up who you are. After all, anyone who cares can find out who I am with a click.”

Scroll up some.

“It would certainly help your credibility.”

No it would not. The validity of the things I post here is completely independent of the fact that I am the one who posted them. An argument is an argument.

“Why do you protest so much?”

Because it’s a waste of everyone’s time here. Take your accusations of us harming Mises’ namesake, ghostwriting for each other, and pretending to own businesses back to the schoolyard where it belongs.

sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 2:13 am

Well I made an embarrassing typo! When I said “communism could ever work, ever”, I of course meant “communism could *never* work, ever”

:p

DixieFlatline January 13, 2011 at 3:41 am

Oh wow, Dave Narby the libertarian is pro-communism. That’s priceless.

Peter January 13, 2011 at 6:06 am

Dave Narby is not libertarian. He describes himself as “moderately Libertarian Centrist”. Which, whatever it is, clearly isn’t anything like “libertarian”. All political types describe themselves as “centrist” (presumably to avoid being thought of as unelectable “extremists”). Kim Jong Il, if he were standing for election against opponents, would describe undoubtedly himself as a “moderate centrist” of whatever party.

AskanIPquestion January 13, 2011 at 12:26 pm

“Sorry you have such a negative reaction to Communism. It’s actually a fine system of government, if practiced according to it’s principles. The problem is in it’s application.”

Ah communism, nothing for the common people, everthing for the leaders…

“It would certainly help your credibility.”

Your credibility just went to the moon. ROFL

AskanIPquestion January 13, 2011 at 12:21 pm

Why don’t you answer questions?

You said about IP: “That all depends depends on whether or not they formed a government and passed a law about it.”
http://blog.mises.org/15290/copyright-promotes-the-progress-of-arts/comment-page-1/#comment-750928

My question:

“IP depends on the existence of governments and government-regulated laws? Without them there is no IP?”

Answer that and try not to avoid it cowardly.

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james b. longacre January 13, 2011 at 1:34 am

Ideas, information, logos–are used to guide human action…

i wonder how many people buy fake diamonds and tell others or dont deny that it is a fake diamond so other will think they are wearing a real diamond…status reasons i suppose.

if you have clothing that has a logo representative of a company and wasn tproduced by that company would you care if it did what you wanted? certainly some would. if the logoed thing from the actual logo originator is important then noone should get in the way of that…if having an identical logo on something not made by the originator i dont know that that would be too much of a problem if peopel are alerted to that fact.

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Sione January 13, 2011 at 1:48 am

Narby

I didn’t say what my business is. I’d have explained a little of what I am up to had you bothered to specifically ask instead of making fun of my name and on that basis dismissed everything I posted for you to consider. That’s worse than rude, it is intellectually degenerate. Given this behaviour from you, your accusations of “ad hominem, pejoratives, and a tsunami of fallacies” directed at others, are hypocritical.

Narby, the challenge for you is as outlined in my post above.

“What is required from the opponents of Dr Kinsella is for them to produce a complete exposition of their “IP is property” ideology complete with detailed explanation of its derivation and validation. They need to demonsrate that their derivation is valid at each and every step of the chain of thinking and identification it relies upon. At that stage it is possible for the rest of us to read and evaluate. Questions can be asked and clarifications sought.”

That’s the challenge that you face. It isn’t a trivial undertaking either. You’d need to prepare and deliver work of high academic quality (a published paper or several). Then you’d need to face critical examination, many questions and thorough on-going analysis of what you’d done by specialists and practitioners in the field, as well as others who are interested/involved with IP matters. It is during the defense of your work that any weaknesses or possible errors would be highlighted. Likely it’d take some time for you to develop an accurate, rational and logical exposition of your system (being charitable and assuming that such can be done and that you are actually up to doing it). There is no guarantee of success. Still, that’s exactly the challenge Dr Kinsella has had to satisfy. Now it’s up to you to do the same (assuming you want to be taken seriously and are not just some weenie seeking argument for the sake of beeing an argumentative weenie)- outline your complete position and publish it, if you can.

Sione

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Dave Narby January 13, 2011 at 2:51 am

I know you didn’t say what your business was. That’s because I flat out accused you of lying about it, and I am waiting for you to prove you actually are engaged in it.

I also wasn’t making fun of your name. I was pointing out that you are hiding behind a pseudonym for no known good reason. Seems as if you were proud of your anti-IP stance, you wouldn’t mind your name showing up in a search or two related to it.

Frankly, this isn’t an intellectual exercise for me at all. It’s a practical one, and I don’t need the approval of academics to make my case to the public, quite to the contrary.

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Sione January 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm

Narby

My name is Sione Vatu and you owe me an apology and a retraction. You have debased yourself as a rude person of low intellect.

The fact of the matter is that you can accuse whomever you like of whatever you like. Such accusations are irrelevant to the subject of enquiry here. In the end all you are doing is engaging in an evasion.

You have now provided first hand evidence to any reader of the blog that you lack the capability to deal with the topic of IP in a rational, logical manner. Rather you prefer to smear and make personal attack. Fine, that’s your personal attribute and your self-debasement. Nevertheless, the challenge of deriving and presenting your “system” of thought (regarding IP) remains one for you to face up to. That you can’t is a sign of your intellectual failure.

Sione

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:51 pm

Sione,

Dave Narby is a politician. He makes a living off of doing stuff like this. Attacking people’s “credibility”, portraying his opponents as satanic morons, etc. He asks irrelevant questions and when people refuse to answer them because it’s pointless, he just repeats the same question and quips, “What’s the big deal”. He also litters multiple threads with the same irrelevant and pointless question in some childish attempt to defame these threads. Standard politicking.

Ever watched a debate between candidates or seen a campaign ad?

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Sione January 13, 2011 at 6:38 pm

Sweatervest

Yes. Occasionally I have suffered the misfortune to see a bit of that stuff. Sheer emptiness…

Thanks for the update on Narby. I’d originally guessed he might be merely young and inexperienced. Seems like the evasive politician characterisation is more likely to be the accurate assessment. Oh well.

Sione

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sweatervest January 13, 2011 at 1:55 pm

“That’s because I flat out accused you of lying about it, and I am waiting for you to prove you actually are engaged in it.”

Prove that you’re actually Dave Narby. Considering that you are about as far away from libertarianism as one can get, and yet link to a website with that very word plastered all over the background, I have a very good reason to believe you are someone else ghostwriting under Narby’s name.

I am flat out accusing you of lying about who you are.

“Frankly, this isn’t an intellectual exercise for me at all.”

You don’t need to tell us that.

“It’s a practical one, and I don’t need the approval of academics to make my case to the public, quite to the contrary.”

Yep, you’re not interested in truth, you’re interested in getting votes so you can stay in office and continue to leech off of productive individuals. You apparently have no problem preaching false doctrines, as long as you can do it as a demagogue, wow the masses and get a big fat stolen paycheck for it.

I honestly never expected you to admit that you have no interest in approaching this rationally.

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AskanIPquestion January 13, 2011 at 12:24 pm

“Seems as if you were proud of your anti-IP stance, you wouldn’t mind your name showing up in a search or two related to it.”

Only a stupid person could only think about it that way. There are millions of reasons why anyone wants to pick a nickname and use it.

But who am I telling this. You also find communism attractive…

“…Communism. It’s actually a fine system of government, if practiced according to it’s principles. The problem is in it’s application.”

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Query for Schulman on Patents and Logorights

See updated post here

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From Mises Blog a year ago:

Yeager and Other Letters Re Liberty article “Libertarianism and Intellectual Property”

January 23, 2010 by Stephan Kinsella

My article “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism,” Liberty, vol. 23, no. 11 (December, 2009), p. 27, was published in the December, 2009 issue of Liberty; the March, 2010 issue features the following exchange in the “Letters” section (pp. 6–8):

Philosophizing IP

Thanks to Stephan Kinsella for questioning the justice of intellectual property (“Intellectual Property and Libertarianism,” December 2009). Like many libertarians, he posits property rights as the foundation of libertarian political theory, and suggests that because it is a derivative concept, we stop calling the nonaggression principle an “axiom.” So far so good. But Anthony de Jasay suggests that the concept of “property” itself should in turn be considered derivative, from the still more fundamental principle of liberty of contract. De Jasay also defines “rights” and “liberties” more carefully and usefully than most libertarians, who use these loaded words all too loosely — Kinsella included. (See de Jasay’s “Choice, Contract, Consent,” or “Before Resorting to Politics,” reprinted in “Against Politics.”)

Kinsella’s attempt to show that no well-formulated property rights can apply to pure information seems dubious. Yes, information can escape physical confines and reproduce in ways that physical objects can’t, but so what? Perhaps the real question is not whether IP should be classified ontologically with other forms of “property,”1 but whether voluntary agreements can be reached (without the help of legislatures) that would make revelation, or publication, or mishandling of information a tort. Clearly some can; what of contracts to protect trade secrets, and other nondisclosure agreements? [continue reading…]

  1. Oh brother. I’ve heard this one before. See The Structural Unity of Real and Intellectual PropertyThe “Ontology” Mistake of Libertarian CreationistsObjectivists: “All Property is Intellectual Property”A Recurring Fallacy: “IP is a Purer Form of Property than Material Resources”. —SK []
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In this excellent recent Mises Daily article by Briggs Armstrong, The Biggest Videos, Ebooks, and Academy Courses of 2010, Armstrong notes that my Against Intellectual Property made the top 10 list of free book downloads. He writes:

10. Against Intellectual Property — Stephan Kinsella

This monograph has played a huge role in reshaping how Austrians and libertarians view the artificial, government-granted monopolies on ideas. Kinsella is a practicing patent attorney, and he recently finished teaching an online class on the subject in the Mises Academy. He points out that intellectual-property legislation can only stifle innovation, competition, and progress. He advocates the complete abolition of patents, copyrights, and the like.

It is through adopting this philosophy that the Mises Institute has made available, free of charge, all of these books.

It is of course gratifying and humbling to have played some role, however small, in the Mises Institute’s success (astoundingly, it was ranked the 10th most influential financial/economics website in the world in a recent study; see Mises.org is #10 in a “Most Influential” Study). But my point in noting this is to show the power of the openness and ideas–the power of knowledge.

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Teaching an Online Mises Academy Course

See Teaching an Online Mises Academy Course

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see Jeffrey A. Tucker on Intellectual Property

A Mises Blog post from a year ago:

Jeff Tucker Free Talk Live Interview on Open Information and IP

February 9, 2010 by Stephan Kinsella

Jeff Tucker was interviewed yesterday by Mark Edge, as part of his “Edgington Post Interview Series,” for his Free Talk Live radio show, about the Mises Institute’s “open information” approach (see Jeff Tucker, A Theory of Open [archived comments], B.K. Marcus, Mises.org on iTunes U, Doug French, The Intellectual Revolution Is in Process [archived comments]). The interview is lasts about 24 minutes, and starts at 2:52:07 in the Feb. 8, 2010 show. Tucker makes some great points, such as his idea that perhaps the antitrust law prevented movie studios from owning the theaters and thus may have made them less likely to be willing to consider online distribution models; and his example of how the Cantor-Cox book, which was released for free online months before the paper version, helped to create a ready-made audience for the paper book.

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The Myth of Under-provision of Science by the Free Market

Very nice piece by Anita Acavalos, writing for The Cobden Centre:

The Myth of Under-provision of Science by the Free Market

By Anita Acavalos, on 7 January 11

One of the recurring myths propagated by today’s mainstream economists is that scientific research requires government funding in order to give society the maximum contribution possible. They start from the correct argument that scientific research is a fundamental link in the chain leading to development, but arrive at the incorrect conclusion that due to its significance it necessitates government funding. This is due to the incorrect assumption that not enough research will be provided by the free market. However, this conclusion is based on faulty economic theory. The two biggest mistakes economists make when it comes to scientific research is that they assume that it is a so-called ‘public good’ and base their conclusions and analysis on a theory that neglects the role of the entrepreneur in this field. This paper aims to show that both of these arguments are wrong: not only is scientific research not a public good but also the entrepreneur, guided by profit and loss, is the most effective decision maker when it comes to the crucial questions of how much research is needed and how it should be provided. The fact that the entrepreneur works as a coordinator, guiding resources in their correct uses and making decisions about how scientific research should be carried out, makes the free market a much more efficient and effective provider of scientific research.

Economists widely hold that science is both non-excludable and non-rivalrous thus necessitating government funding. However, Terence Kealey, a scientist specializing in Clinical Biochemistry argues that in practice this is not so. This is because the cost of interpreting the ideas provided by science is not the same as ideas in other fields. Being able to use scientific research is not the same as copying a cooking recipe for instance (although some may argue even that is not perfectly replicable, as it depends on the skill of the cook). People are excluded from the benefits of theoretical science because of the fact that they are not all equipped with the necessary scientific background to understand it and be in a position to use it meaningfully.[1] I would argue this is analogous to wireless internet services which technically are non-excludable but can be made so with the use of a password. In the case of science this metaphorical password is the necessary training and academic achievement to become part of this scientific community. Moreover, in order to make important discoveries and get the benefit of access to other scientists’ research, scientists have to be published in order to build a reputation. Therefore, although ideas in science are not always exchanged for money, they are exchanged for other ideas. These ideas need to be provided freely by the scientist in order to increase his likelihood of gaining access to other scientist’s ideas that could further his work, thereby creating a pool of knowledge. Therefore, since people have had to incur a cost in order to be able to access this knowledge pool, Kealey defines science as an ‘invisible college good.’[2] Under this system scientific knowledge is used and distributed freely among scientists. Most advocates of patents say that this is problematic as scientists may have their ideas ‘scooped’ by others after publication and may not be able to reap the full profits from it. However, these people ignore that the first person to publish on a topic is the person to gain the academic credentials of this achievement. Also, by being the first person to make the discovery he gets to be the first person to profit from this discovery as it takes time for someone who scooped the idea to get to a point where he can produce something useful from it. However, even if we excluded this first mover advantage and assumed that replication of this person’s discovery was instant upon publication, he still benefits from this system. This is because although he incurs the risk of having his research scooped by someone else, he is more likely to in turn scoop someone else’s research as this free distribution system of science gives the scientist access to a greater pool of knowledge resources. This means that the speed by which scientists are able to adopt methods or ideas produced by other scientists and improve them in order to make greater profits in the area of applied research or improve their academic record in the area of theoretical research will be increased. After all, “technological progress is a gradual process, a chain of successive steps performed by long lines of men each of whom adds something to the accomplishments of his predecessors.”[3] Thus, we see that government funding is not necessary for science, as scientists have large benefits in terms of prestige and increased employment opportunities by publishing. Also there is no need for government protection of scientific discovery as the greater pool of knowledge emerging benefits all scientists alike and speeds up the implementation and development of new ideas.

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[MIses]

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Waste and Needless Complexity due to Patents

As reported by Engadget (see below), Apple sued HyperMac with patent infringement for selling external battery packs for MacBooks that used an (apparently) patented MagSafe connector. HyperMac is very popular (I have one), and did not give up. They realized that Apple sells a Magsafe Airline Adapter for $49. So HyperMac made their connector connect to an auto/airline adapter instead of to the MacBook directly. So, if you want to connect HyperMac to your MacBook, you buy the HyperMac, and you have to buy a $49 connector from Apple, and then connect this kluge all together. It’s more expensive than otherwise, wasteful, bulkier, less reliable, etc. But what do you expect from patent law? Good luck to HyperMac.

HyperMac responds with vengeance, and non patent infringing adapter

By Kevin Wong posted Jan 6th 2011 9:00PM
You may remember back in September the sad story of an Apple filed patent-infringement lawsuit that HyperMac and their beloved HyperMac batteries found themselves at the end of. The big whigs in Cupertino accussed HyperMac of using their patented MagSafe power connector and 30-pin iPhone / iPod dock connectors without the proper licensing agreements. Well, HyperMac has responded with a clever yet uninvasive way to avoid future legal ramification and still satisfy a power hungry family of MacBooks and their equally demanding users. HyperMac has now included a new Auto / Airline Adapter with their newly renamed HyperJuice external batteries which connects to a Magsafe Airline Adapter that you can legally purchase from Apple for $49. It is still the same old HyperMac battery we know and love, but with a juicier name and new connection.
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Naturally Occurring Genes and the Commons by Necessity

Good post by C4SIF board member David Koepsell:

NATURALLY OCCURRING GENES AND THE COMMONS BY NECESSITY
By David Koepsell

One frequent response to various arguments against gene patents is the claim that without such patents the biotech industry will falter. There is very little evidence for this, and recently the trend has been that corporations are seeking fewer patents on unmodified genes. This trend is no doubt motivated by recent shifts in the legal landscape creating greater uncertainty about the future of gene patenting in general. The decision by Judge Sweet in the AMP v. Myriad case, the report of the SACGHS, and the Department of Justice’s recent amicus brief opposing patents on unmodified, but merely “isolated” genes have necessitated greater caution in patent filings. If these trends continue, only modified sequences are likely to remain patent-eligible. The DOJ’s brief sets the standard pretty low for modification, given that they conclude that cDNA is sufficiently inventive to be patent-eligible; but all of this nit-picking and dithering around the edges of patent-eligibility for genes, and bargaining among parties who clearly believe that gene patents have some useful role in promoting innovation, seems odd to me. All of these arguments hinge on questions regarding the efficacy, efficiency, and role of gene patenting in encouraging innovation and economic growth. Utilitarian arguments are suspect to some of us with training in ethics, and of a particular ethical bent.

Utilitarian arguments can justify all sorts of nasty things, as long as the overall good outweighs the harms caused. Utility can be a reason for doing something, but it cannot, in my estimation, ever suffice if rights are otherwise violated. Those who believe in rights (and the duties they imply) must reject the sole use of utility as an argument in favor of gene patents if they violate some particular right.

In my book Who Owns You? The Corporate Gold Rush to Patent Your Genes, I considered the various utilitarian arguments proposed by gene patent proponents, but argued ultimately that these pragmatic justifications were outweighed by the fact that gene patents violate certain inviolable rights. I didn’t arrive at those rights in the usual way. I concluded that even with gene patents, no one really “owns” you, nor can they claim to have any control over any one of us by virtue of their patents. Even while patents on unmodified genes prevent you from gaining information about your genome without paying monopolistic rents to patent holders, it is conceivable that this will be overcome by various technical possibilities, such as do-it-yourself whole genome sequencing. This is a remote and distant possibility (anticipated and prepared for by the heroic Steven Salzberg, of the University of Maryland), but it illustrates that the sort of control over individuals posed by patent ownership falls short of violating our individual autonomy over our bodies.

Patents give to the patent-holder a right to exclude others from doing something. In the case of gene patents, they give their owners rights to prevent others from replicating the patented gene. In most of the valuable instances of these patents, that right enables a company (like Myriad) to prevent others from testing for the presence of a certain mutation of BRCA1 and 2 that causes an increased likelihood of breast and ovarian cancers. Granting such a right to exclude is not unique to intellectual property law. It also is a hallmark of real property law. The term “real property” at one time applied to all tangible goods, but now it is generally understood to mean simply “land.”

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Innovative Funding Experiment(s) at Clarkesworld Magazine

From Geoffrey Allan Plauché at Prometheus Unbound:

Innovative Funding Experiment(s) at Clarkesworld Magazine

by Geoffrey Allan Plauché on January 6, 2011 @ 12:46 pm · 0 comments

in Fantasy Fiction,IP Law,News,Science Fiction,Short Fiction

Clarkesworld Magazine is an online science fiction and fantasy magazine that features at least two original short stories per month from new and established authors as well as artwork, podcasts, and non-fiction articles. Founded in October 2006 by Neil Clarke, its online content is totally free. The magazine has been experimenting with innovative methods of funding. No paywalls or DRM or desperate IP aggression here.

While its content is freely available online, Clarkesworld sells print versions of its fiction. An annual anthology series, Realms, is available in trade paperback, hardcover, and ebook formats. Additionally, several months after online publication, each month’s fiction is collected in chapbook form; the value-add here is that the chapbooks are limited print run (100), numbered editions that are signed by the authors. If you happen to have a tablet pc or ereader, you can also purchase ebook editions of each monthly online issue in epub or mobi/kindle format.

But what really caught my attention was the innovative way Clarkesworld is approaching the traditional donation model. The magazine has instituted a 4-tier membership program, with larger donations getting you access to a higher tier of membership (a status symbol) and better benefits (listing in the annual anthology, copies of Realms in one of its formats, Rejection Journal, other merchandise).

There’s a twist, however, that really intrigued me. By donating you don’t just become a “member” but a “citizen.” As a libertarian anarchist, I really get a kick out of that. Now here’s a form of citizenship I can get down with!  Completely voluntary, incredibly easy to renounce, not tied to any geographic territory, narrow in scope, provides real benefits I might actually want and supports something of actual value.

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Statist “Private Property” Is Theft

Nice post from a left-libertarian perspective at C4SS (for which serve on the Advisory Panel). I would demur a bit on praising Benjamin Tucker’s formulation of the Four Monopolies–he was good on three of them but the “land monopoly” criticism is confused and not entirely libertarian (see my criticism here of the mutualist occupancy position on land ownership). (For related posts, see my Intellectual Properganda, Are Patents “Monopolies”?, Renaming Intellectual Property.)

As I mentioned to some friends in an email discussion about this post, Tucker was good except on land. Spooner was good except on IP. But even on land, Tucker was not completely wrong, in pointing to some pernicious effects of state intervention in the property rights and justice/legal system. But Spooner was completely out of his gourd on IP (I discuss him briefly in Against Intellectual Property, text at notes 32 and 48), as were Rand and Galambos.

It’s funny–well, sad, really–how these heroes of liberty all end up supporting one little exception that threatens all of humanity now–Rand on the state and the Constitution, and IP; Galambos and Spooner on IP; left-libertarian precursors like Benjamin Tucker and George with their hoary notions of land, occupancy, labor theory of value, the “single tax”, and so on … It took Rothbard to Get it Right.

Statist “Private Property” Is Theft

Posted by David D’Amato on Jan 5, 2011 in CommentaryComments

Yesterday, Bloomberg reported that a Federal Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the validity of a patent protecting software used to defend against piracy. The decision could cost other companies that have used the technology billions in damages and “may boost [the plaintiff’s] efforts to collect royalties from additional companies.”

The same story goes on to describe a Baltimore restaurateur’s registration of the word “hon” (short for the affectionate tag “honey”) as a trademark, and a website administrator’s recent challenge of it. Both the patent and the trademark detailed in the article provide emblematically insane examples of the kinds of perfectly arbitrary “private property” that the state inflicts on society.

And just as state-capitalism’s co-opting of the phrase “free market” makes it more difficult to defend free markets, so do the state’s spurious forms of “private property” exasperate any attempt to defend property as such.

Historically, anarchism has often been defined to entail a rejection of the idea of private property, of an individual right to own things against the claims of society at large. Assumedly “anti-property” anarchists, though, would nevertheless find it impermissible for someone to steal your car or barge into your dwelling uninvited. All anarchists on some level defend your rights to the control of your person and to the products of your labor, commitments that, to my mind, require property, notwithstanding the word itself and its baggage.

It is no coincidence that Thomas Babington Macaulay, in his criticism of the state, compared it to “one great capitalist” — meaning in essence a monopolist — with no motivation but to use society’s wealth for a privileged few. Many of the early anarchists would have understood property within this paradigm, as a tool for exploitation within the broader, state-capitalist economic system.

It is little wonder, then, that so many of them, in their hostility to all manner of authority, opposed property, the legal means through which wealth was concentrated. Similarly, when Emma Goldman said that “property, or the monopoly of things, has subdued and stifled man’s needs,” she was clearly dealing with “property” within the context of the centralized/monopolized economic system (emphasis added).

Given the reasons advanced by those anarchists for their disapproval, anarchists on the free market Left could also be thought of as, in a particular sense, remonstrating against property. Detached from its moral requirements — those prerequisite factors that justify the protection of your ownership of some things — property becomes merely another way for the state’s power elites to give themselves heirs. Intellectual property rights like patents and trademarks are instances of this, allowing today’s monopolists to hold the state’s gun to our heads to either stop us from competing or to pay them rent (in the form of “royalties”).

Benjamin Tucker enumerated his “Four Monopolies” precisely to oppose the kind of property that the state frames and institutes, not to oppose the concept of ownership foursquare. “Anarchism,” he taught, “is a word without meaning, unless it includes the liberty of the individual to control his product or whatever his product has brought him through exchange in a free market — that is, private property. Whoever denies private property is of necessity an Archist.”

Again, we see that anarchists have consistently and correctly equated the statist formulation of property with monopolization, the very thing that market anarchists resist in all respects. If we consider the meaning of property as it is defined by the state — completely contrived rights bestowed by fiat — then the traditional, anarchist antagonism begins to come clear.

Remember as well that, due to the repressive authority of religious institutions, many anarchists regarded atheism as a necessary condition of anarchism, as an indispensable piece of the anti-authority attitude. (In the interest of disclosure: I’m an atheist.) Are we, the anarchists of today, therefore meant to exhort against the practice of faith, or might we do better to limit anarchism, like Tucker did, to opposition to one very specific thing — the state?

The anti-property position may be an article of faith within anarchism, but only insofar as we accept the state’s misshapen definition of it. Our task as anarchists is to show people that, by taking issue with the state’s private property, you support it in its true form.

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